obelixtim 100 #26 November 21, 2011 This guy should have had his ratings pulled after the first time. Permanently!. End of storyMy computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ShotterMG 0 #27 November 21, 2011 Just remember that while doing tandem wingsuit jumps you should leave the lower latteralls disconnected. I hope that helps. Blue skies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #28 November 21, 2011 QuoteBut... what if? The OP had a valid question. If everything goes to crap and 1, 2, 3 random points are hooked up and 1, 2, or 3 are not - what do you do. This thread quickly got off target. What are the solutions in freefall? Under canopy? What are the best and worse case scenarios? I was impressed when a TI told me that every year he goes back to an tandem examiner for a "refresher". He said, there is always something to learn. I asked what they learned in 2011, and he talked about "what happens if you snag your video guy in your drogue". How do you cut him away? Not to take this thread on that tangent, but these "what ifs" seem to be best thought of before it actually happens, and this thread had the possibility of going that direction... So what are the solutions? (Note, I am an AFFI, not a TI, but being a rigger and instructor I am both curious and intrigued, and am very familiar with the tandem gear.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiver30960 0 #29 November 21, 2011 Quote This thread quickly got off target. What are the solutions in freefall? Under canopy? There are so many different permutations of the problem: different connectors left unused will cause different problems when exiting from different aircraft, different body types (instructor vs. student), maybe even varied based on gear type. I love procedures. I love checklists. I love weird little habits that nobody else understands. In my current and past activities/jobs, they have saved my ass many times and (I hope) will do the same many more times in the future. And so it is not lost on me, and admittedly scares me a bit when I realize there may be no true "answer" to this question other than: "I would do whatever is necessary to maximize the chances of keeping my student and myself alive." Elvisio "not a TI anymore, but an interesting thought exercise nonetheless" Rodriguez Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #30 November 21, 2011 QuoteMy tandem IE actually went over scenarios where you may intentionally leave the aircraft with as little as only one connection hooked up. You may not have time to hook up all four connections when the pilot all of a sudden yells "get the fuck out" in an emergency situation, especially when people are behind you. ..................................................................... SEI teaches to attach a minimum of two hooks - before an emergency exit. Those two hooks should include at least one shoulder hook and one hip hook, diagonally opposite. That configuration minimizes flailing under the drogue. Any one hook is enough to keep the tandem pair together for landing, but attaching two minimises the risk of them twisting off the D-rings. Consider that side hooks are MIL SPEC (oops! ... modern terminology: PIA SPEC) Quick Ejector Snaps rated to hold 2,500 pounds. If you consider that your heaviest student weights 250 pounds, that means the QE Snap will survive a 10 G opening. That means opening a reserve during unstable, tandem terminal! I doubt if you will remain conscious during that hard an opening! With all the bruising, torn muscles, etc. ... you will wish that you were not awake through that opening! Next consider that modern shoulder hooks are rated for 5,000 pounds. Rob Warner Strong Tandem Examiner FAA Master Rigger Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #31 November 21, 2011 Quote This guy should have had his ratings pulled after the first time. Permanently!. End of story ............................................................................ They usually have a long, embarrassing conversation with their local TE, who then decides whether they can be salvaged with some refresher training ... or should be given the "bowling speech." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #32 November 21, 2011 "Quote... we were told any ONE connector would keep the student attached during deployment, but that if you ever found yourself in a situation in which one or more was NOT attached, to tear up your tandem ticket when you landed ..." ...................................................................... To quote John Sherman: "If you forget to hook up the side straps [on a Racer Tandem] the main opens immediately. then you lose the Y-bridle, some small parts and your TI rating!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #33 November 21, 2011 QuoteA DZ in Colorado has a super king air that makes altitude (12.5AGL) with a full load/full fuel during summer in 7 mins - and that's starting at a 5300MSL field elevation. I also know that Mike Mullins has a super KA, as well as another dz somewhere in the US. And when you're sitting on straddle benches in a packed KA, it can take a little more than 60 seconds to properly hook your student up. Hell, it can take about a minute just to find the space to tighten down the straps when the plane is that full. Super, that's why I said from boaring to altitude, not wheels up to altitude. If you add in 1 or 2 min for loading, taxi and take off, plus another 1 min on jump run while others exit, you're in the plane with your student for 10 min. If you're that pressed for space, hook up your lowers once the student slides back to you on the bench. You'll never have more room than that to hook up, so take advantage of it. If it's tight in the back for snugging the side straps, work together with the TI/jumper next to you. Have them lean over and get tight to the wall while you use the extra space to snug up your side straps. Then you hug the wall while they do their thing. There is no excuse or reason not to be fully hooked up and tightened before a non-emergency exit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #34 November 21, 2011 QuoteQuoteA DZ in Colorado has a super king air that makes altitude (12.5AGL) with a full load/full fuel during summer in 7 mins - and that's starting at a 5300MSL field elevation. I also know that Mike Mullins has a super KA, as well as another dz somewhere in the US. And when you're sitting on straddle benches in a packed KA, it can take a little more than 60 seconds to properly hook your student up. Hell, it can take about a minute just to find the space to tighten down the straps when the plane is that full. Super, that's why I said from boaring to altitude, not wheels up to altitude. If you add in 1 or 2 min for loading, taxi and take off, plus another 1 min on jump run while others exit, you're in the plane with your student for 10 min. If you're that pressed for space, hook up your lowers once the student slides back to you on the bench. You'll never have more room than that to hook up, so take advantage of it. If it's tight in the back for snugging the side straps, work together with the TI/jumper next to you. Have them lean over and get tight to the wall while you use the extra space to snug up your side straps. Then you hug the wall while they do their thing. There is no excuse or reason not to be fully hooked up and tightened before a non-emergency exit. Dave, I disagree with this, each person should be on their own seat belt and free of others till 1500'+ AGL, if there is a crash and the T-I is not able to release the Student then they both may perish in a fire. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,048 #35 November 22, 2011 Hi ocd, During my jumping days I never was any form of a TI; the closest I ever came was being on an RW 8-way with a tandem pair. Rattling around in the back of my memory is that the very first tandem fatality ( ~25 yrs ago ) was due to not getting the two top hooks secured. The pair were found on the ground with only one top hoop secured. The speculation was that they had exited with out the top hooks secure & the TI spent the rest of his life getting the one attached. Later the mfr said that any one attachment would keep the passenger held to the TI. I recall that the rig was a Strong & that it occured in the NE USA. As I said, all from memory so I might be somewhat incorrect. JerryBaumchen PS) I stay out of this forum but this title caught my attention. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #36 November 22, 2011 Yes Jerry, Your memory matches the first entry on RWS/UPT's list of tandem fatalities. The poor TI got distracted by a loose shoulder hook and wasted the rest of his life trying to clip it onto his harness. Remember that he died before Cypres was invented. Modern advice says to toss the drogue, closely followed by a drogue release handle. The primary goal becomes opening a canopy before accelerating to tandem terminal velocity. The higher you can slow down the mess (e.g. partially-connected student) the better. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #37 November 22, 2011 "Quote... Do your verbal checklist and share it with the student. Just like pilots who use GUMPST before every takeoff and landing. ......................................................................... Good habit! Verbal checklists also reduce the risk of "inappropriate sexual touching" lawsuits. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #38 November 22, 2011 "Quote... We attach the laterals right after boarding. ...." ...................................................................... I only attach the laterals - before take off - in the most cramped airplanes. For example, if I am stuck in the right front seat of a narrow-body (pre 1962) Cessna 182. That is because there is NO elbow-room to attach them after the door is closed. That is also why I usually take the heavier student so that I can claim "the old man's seat" behind the pilot. The only other excuse for attaching students (before take off) is if your airplane lacks an in-flight door. Finally, I believe that attaching students too early increases the risk of them being injured during a forced landing. The last time I was in a plane crash, only one student was hooked to her instructor before take off and she suffered the worst injuries (a cracked pelvis). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Abedy 0 #39 November 22, 2011 QuoteI only attach the laterals - before take off - in the most cramped airplanes. We have a 206 here, which is usually quite packed...The sky is not the limit. The ground is. The Society of Skydiving Ducks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #40 November 22, 2011 QuoteQuoteI only attach the laterals - before take off - in the most cramped airplanes. We have a 206 here, which is usually quite packed... I am with Rob; I only attach the lowers prior to take off in the #1 slot of a narrow body 182. I have several hundred 206 rides with three tandems. I have been in pain on several of them due to cramped conditions, but I have never been unable to hook up the lowers in flight. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #41 November 23, 2011 QuoteQuoteI only attach the laterals - before take off - in the most cramped airplanes. We have a 206 here, which is usually quite packed... ........................................................................ It is still possible to attach laterals inside a Cessna 206. If you are in the co-pilot's position, there is plenty of room to attach laterals. If you are in the rear position (closest to the cargo door) you have the option of sliding farther aft, (once you are above 4,000 feet AGL) giving you plenty of room to attach laterals. The only difficult TI position is the one behind the pilot. There you struggle for room to attach laterals. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pirana 0 #42 November 28, 2011 Lots of good stuff here I won't repeat, but thought I'd add my 2 cents by mentioning something I did not see yet - distractions. I've got a very thorough routine that includes checking everything 3 times before the door opens. It has caught a couple things that could have caused major problems (a snagged release that was hanging out a couple inches and a shoulder ball that was under the harness). I touch everything so many times it probably appears as OCD. Back to distractions; it really irks me when people stick their hand in me or my passengers face looking for a slap and knuckle bump while I'm getting ready. I've never said it out loud yet (concern over passenger perception/reaction) but in my head I'm screaming "DO YOU SEE WHAT I'M FUCKING DOING HERE?!"" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Abedy 0 #43 November 28, 2011 Quotebut in my head I'm screaming "DO YOU SEE WHAT I'M FUCKING DOING HERE?!" Yeah, happens now and then. Once you tell the diver on the ground to leave you alone when obviously (double)checking they will understand. But what really annoys me to the point I tell "STOP IT!" is when jumpers either tell my students silly things (usually remarks about bad equipment and / or "going to die") or even touch 'em. "I just wanted to check the chest strap!" - "Ever thought that I AM obligated and GOING to do this?" Has only happened two times yet but these were the two occasions I said something. The jumpers should have known and after that they didn't do it again.The sky is not the limit. The ground is. The Society of Skydiving Ducks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #44 November 28, 2011 I agree I really wish the other jumpers would be mindful of the timing with their hand jazz requests. However it is important to remember that they have the best of intentions and that if you let it raise your arousal level you are not doing you or your student any good. If people work it out that doing that to you when you are getting ready they will be left hanging, they will eventually work it out and either stop asking or watch to see when you are ready. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimjumper 25 #45 November 28, 2011 I usually just give them a "Wait" hand signal. You can do it behind the student so they don't notice and just go on wih your routine. And keep on being OCD. After you see a few things and catch a few things you realize how aware you have to be while still paying attention to your student. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aarco 0 #46 December 13, 2011 Mental and memery - with motion and meditation starts with that crazy stuff TI do in the morning - the coffee the talking- war storys - streching-etc-- basic safty review - Gear - every day all day long-It should always be four or more - paint the picture (8* Having something never beats doing (>|<) Iam building things - Iam working on my mind- I am going to change this world - its what I came here 4- - - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
