Why was/is Class 3 Medical For TI

[Ron 7]

Why not have the same medical requirements for light sport aircraft? Your DRIVERS LICENSE.

Simple fact is that you do not need a medical according to the FAA to jump. And you don't even need a medical to fly a plane that is less than 1320 pounds, max stall of 51 MPH, and max of one passenger.

Basically, the FAA should not care anymore. The rest is all manufacturer and USPA.

The medical standard for tandem should be a drivers license just like light sport aircraft.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[diablopilot 2]

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1 - limited supply of TM candidates doesn't allow for that level of medical scrutiny

In 13 years of full time skydiving, I've never seen this "shortage" of TI's. And assuming there is a shortage, why would you suspect the the medical is the bottle neck?

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[stratostar 5]

First, you & I agree, I have already stated the medical requirement is not law under the FAR's and should have been dropped years ago when tdm went legit. All this BS about getting "better" people is all BS window dressing!

How ever each and every time I've talked about this to a USPA person, the answer is : It's the MFG's who require it.

So I asked about the DOT medicals as equivalent to meet the standards, after reading about all the wavered ones for "select" groups in the membership and all the while knowing the USDOT medical cards are as good or better then the ones getting a pass because someone knew who and how to ask the right way.

So this time, when it came up, I asked Rich about it and explained my points about that medical and why it should be "equivalent" and level the playing field for all the members and stop all the wavering BS. Or we need no medical and comply with the FAR's only, or everyone forks over the 90 bucks (cheapest I've found) and gets a class 3, no wavers!

Point is, I don't think you'll ever see them drop the medical, so why waste the time asking. However the fact is, there are a few people I know of that for minor stupid reasons were failed on a class 3 and are now not able to do TDM's. There is nothing wrong with them, other then being honest on the paper work and medical history.

All any medical requirement by USPA or MFG's to make a TDM jump, needs to say is that who ever is healthy enough to do the job, it needs not be some over priced fancy doctors visit.

Did the class 3 medical help or prevent:

The TI who had a heart attack and died under canopy with the student left to get down on their own.

The TI who hooked in and killed the student and himself.

The TI/DZO who got sued and lost for grabbing a chicks chest.

The TI who killed the overweight chick in Ohio.

The Tandem student and TI who were killed in Ohio from a rigging mistake.

The TI who was killed by the camera man, going through the main canopy, leaving a student to land it, alone.

The list goes on and on, let's not fool our self's here and think the class 3 is the end all as to who is fit enough to haul TDM's.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[matthewcline 0]

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If you're talking about "partying" with no "record", the FAA Physical is simple to get.

Yea simple if you lie threw your teeth. If you answer anything but no on any question there will be hoops to jump threw trust me.


The best part is the FAA gives a rats ass that you do or dont have a class three too do tandems. Its the manufacturers that want it. That information came straight from the late Ted Strong.

That kind of depends on the local FSDO, some will say no the FAA doesn't require one, but the FAA does require you follow the Course Director (USPA) or the Manufacturer Rules. That language needs to be cleaned up and clarified.

If you can't get a Physical, you can't get a rating, then the FAA can get involved.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[vanair 0]

OK, I have some more time now. 8 yrs ago I had surgery for sleep apnea. Basically an over blown tonsillectomy where they also remove alot of soft tissue, uvula etc. So I won't snore. Works well, now I don't have to worry about a knife in my back.
As a good boy I reported this on my next FAA medical. About 3 years later when it was about to expire I get a letter from the feds wanting a letter from the surgeon stating that surgery was fine and no more sleep apnea. Great, contact Dr. Oh no I cant write a letter stating any of that unless you have another sleep study. Which means a night in the hospital all wired up. At that time my lame ins. would have cost about $1,000 co-pay. I am a pilot but am not flying and may not unless we can buy another plane sometime in the future. So the only thing that I need a Class III for is TI. FAA says they will not renew without letter. I call RW shop and ask if I just got a letter from the FAA medical examiner would that be OK? Because the Regs say FAA medical or EQUIVALENT. Forget who I talked to several years ago now, but he said yes or if canada is close (I jump in NY) just go get a Canadian medical. So I went to FAA medical examiner and after explaining the situation he was fine giving giving me a Class III examination and a letter Stating this airman passed a Class III flight physical. So I send this with my TI renewal to USPA each year for either 2 or 3 years, with getting a new physical and letter when my class III would have expired. no problem get my renewal each year. Until last year I get my renewal back, no TI on card. No explanation. I call USPA and they say the letter won't work. I go thru my argument of how much more equivalent than a flight surgeon stating I pass a flight physical could it get. They took it up before the BOD and I got shot down. So this spring now that I have better Ins. I will be getting a sleep study. Very frustrating when we as a private industry are requiring more than the Govt. does, ie LSA instructors NOT needing a medical. I agree a physical is a good idea, but why not allow what I had done? Which only cost me $40. Instead of $120. As I understand there are many people in similar situations with other minor issues that have nothing to do with passing the physical.

[stratostar 5]

You just made my whole point, thanks!

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[DiverMike 5]

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I will be getting a sleep study.

Our lives (including the UPPP) sound familiar. I will warn you I had to go through the same steps you did a few years after my surgery and I 'failed' the 2nd sleep study test. Keep in mind the people who perform the test have a vested interest in 'treating' people.

Even though I went through the surgery and sleep much better, I had enough 'episodes' in the sleep test where I interrupted breathing to fail.

That means I must get a waiver for a 3rd class that only lasts a single year and must include a $400 Maintenance of Wakefulness Test (MWT) where I am put in a dark room for 4 hours to make sure I don't fall asleep. I also have to use the CPAP for 30 days prior to the test so the Dr will sign off that I am receiving treatment for my condition.

This would really suck if the only reason I were doing this was to be a TI. Who on the planet believes someone will fall asleep while perfoming the duties of a TI? An 8 hour overnight to Hawaii - I understand, but I have never heard of anyone falling asleep in 50 seconds of freefall.

It just goes to show you that the 3rd Class Medical Certificate is meant for Airmen performing their duties - not TI's.

For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board.

[ozzy13 0]

I took a medication 25 years ago prescribe by a doctor. I took it once and had a allergic reaction too it and never took it again. On medical it asks if you are allergic to any meds i answered yes and put med down iv done that for 25 years with all my doctors. i had to jump threw 8 months of hoops to get my medical. It was a nightmare. im going to monitored for 8 years and then they wont bother me anymore. I think it is BS. I understand the manufacturers protecting themselves and all. I was underage and had know idea what the doc was giving me. does that mean i shouldnt have a medical cause of a med that i took from a doc when i was 17? I dont think so. Well the FAA does and gave me a hard time every step of the way. JUST SAYING :)

Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

[Halfpastniner 0]

I bet next time you will answer "no" to any question you get asked

BASE 1384

[ozzy13 0]

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I bet next time you will answer "no" to any question you get asked

Cant cause I already answered yes :) I do tell anyone going for it to and NO tho so they dont go threw what I did.

Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

[velvetjo 0]

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1 - limited supply of TM candidates doesn't allow for that level of medical scrutiny

In 13 years of full time skydiving, I've never seen this "shortage" of TI's. And assuming there is a shortage, why would you suspect the the medical is the bottle neck?

Who said anything about a shortage now? Tighten up the medical to Class 2 and it will weed out more TM's from the finite number available.

Lance

[riggerrob 558]

We suffered a shortage of TIs during the early and mid-1990s ... when skydiving soared in popularity after the film "point Break."

When Perris Valley decided to insist on drug testing at the turn of the century, they suffered a staff shortage because many long-term staff members were casual (off duty) marijuana smokers.
When I applied to work for Jim Wallace's skydiving school (winter 2000 and 2001) I had to jump through a bunch of hoops to pass a pee test. In the end I never made enough money to pay-off the lab fees.
Ironically, I was forced to pee-test five years after I quit drinking alcohol and smoking marijuana.

I have been sober for the last 16 years and have it has been 3 years since the last time I smoked marijuana (while recovering from injuires suffered during a plane crash).

Bottom line: pee-testing hindered a sober professional and merely forced "chronic" recreational drug users to hire "designated hitters" to substitute for them during pee-tests.

The vast majority of drug-testing schemes are easily by-passed!
Hah!
Hah!

[peek 20]

I commented upthread about why requiring a Second Class FAA medical for doing tandem jumps does not provide any additional safety over a Third Class, but I see that people are still talking about it.

The only difference in the two is vision related, specifically, seeing the instrument panel of the aircraft in case your glasses fall off or something. This would not apply to tandem jumping as far as I can tell.

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/avs/offices/aam/ame/guide/standards/

[sky4meplease 0]

My doc told me the class 2 is the same as the class 3 but with slightly stricter site and hearing requirements and has to be renewed every year rather than two or three years as with class 3.

Class 1 is same as class 2 but with added heart stress tests and renewal every six months.

He is a pilot and is surprised we don't need class 2 or 1 since we carry for hire.

Overkill is under rated.

[DiverMike 5]

You are missing the biggest difference - the time frame validity of the certificate. A second class is only good for 12 months. A third class is 5 years if you are under 40.

A second class defnitely provides additional safety as it is more likely to catch a new medical condition faster.

For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board.

[Andy9o8 0]

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Did the class 3 medical help or prevent:

The TI who had a heart attack and died under canopy with the student left to get down on their own.

Depends on how much prior to the incident the medical examination took place. If it was a few years prior, then obviously the value of the exam as a predictor diminishes over time. A class 2 medical has to be renewed more frequently than a class 3 does.

Plus, doctors are only human; and it's not like a medical includes a very expensive, newer-technology full-body scan. So sometimes they miss shit, like a partial cardiac arterial blockage that doesn't show up on an EKG or stress test. But a single anecdote doesn't diminish the value of the exam as a matter of policy.

[stratostar 5]

I get all that, always have... but it's the same cardiac exam as a DOT medical exam, and that was the point. It's totally the same look here, bend here, cough now, breath deep, piss now, touch your toes 3 times, what color is that...etc, only the paper work is different, slightly.

Both do no cardio or stress testing, they just listen.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[peek 20]

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You are missing the biggest difference - the time frame validity of the certificate. A second class is only good for 12 months. A third class is 5 years if you are under 40. A second class definitely provides additional safety as it is more likely to catch a new medical condition faster.

You are right, I forgot that part! I was concentrating on the vision differences.

[jonathan.newman 1]

Not everyone in the world needs an *FAA* exam to do tandems. The Brits have their own form than any doctor with appropriate experience can sign.

The doctor can be a CAA medical examiner, or a skydiving instructor, or hold a "Dip. Aviat. Med/Cert. Aviat Med." (whatever that is, they ran out of letters), or do aviation medicine in the military.

Specifically, it is said to be equivalent to a CAA class III.

It doesn't say that it MUST BE a CAA class III.

Take a look at their form, also attached.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

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I bet next time you will answer "no" to any question you get asked

Cant cause I already answered yes :) I do tell anyone going for it to and NO tho so they dont go threw what I did.

Be careful answering "no" if the real answer is "yes."
Part of the form is a medical records release. That gives the FAA the right to dig through your past. If you answer "no" to something that the records indicate should have been a "yes" then you can have "problems."

And I'm going to disagree with stratostar on the drug screens for both DOT and FAA medicals. I have a DOT (I drive semi for a living) and the only drug screen I got during my physical was when I was learning at the local technical college. They did it to cover their own behind.
Since then, the physical only included a diabetes and protein "dip stick" urine test.
My company has a random program, and I've "won the lottery" a few times. Get the message to call in, get the notification that I have to be at the clinic within 2 hours or be considered "refused" (and lose my job), go to the clinic and go through the "empty your pockets, don't flush the toilet or run the sink, blada blada crap."

The FAA physical is the same. I've never had a drug screen with it. And I have a commercial ticket, so I get the Class 2 every year. I don't know the rules for airlines or that sort of thing, but I've never even discussed (or heard of discussions) having the DZ pilots tested.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[stratostar 5]

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And I'm going to disagree with stratostar on the drug screens for both DOT and FAA medicals. I have a DOT (I drive semi for a living) and the only drug screen I got during my physical was when I was learning at the local technical college. They did it to cover their own behind.

How many trucking jobs have you had? Because I've done a great deal of trucking and busing for over 25 yrs. And with each and every job change (new company) you get a UA as part of the new hire testing, then once your hired you are in the wiz quiz program where you can be selected at random to take one or if you have an accident you can get one, if the accident kills people, they (cops) take your ass to the hospital and test you ASAP.

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The FAA physical is the same. I've never had a drug screen with it

So the point was, anyone who is currently holding a CDL and DOT medical card for commercial use, has been pissed tested as part of getting the medical card issued to them, then once they are "working" can be at anytime piss tested.

That is a major step above the FAA class 3, so any BS out of USPA or MRG's about how that medical is not equivalent, is BS.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

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And I'm going to disagree with stratostar on the drug screens for both DOT and FAA medicals. I have a DOT (I drive semi for a living) and the only drug screen I got during my physical was when I was learning at the local technical college. They did it to cover their own behind.

How many trucking jobs have you had? Because I've done a great deal of trucking and busing for over 25 yrs. And with each and every job change (new company) you get a UA as part of the new hire testing, then once your hired you are in the wiz quiz program where you can be selected at random to take one or if you have an accident you can get one, if the accident kills people, they (cops) take your ass to the hospital and test you ASAP.

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The FAA physical is the same. I've never had a drug screen with it

So the point was, anyone who is currently holding a CDL and DOT medical card for commercial use, has been pissed tested as part of getting the medical card issued to them, then once they are "working" can be at anytime piss tested.

That is a major step above the FAA class 3, so any BS out of USPA or MRG's about how that medical is not equivalent, is BS.

Only a couple jobs and in the industry for almost 12 years. I'm not disputing the pre-employment or random testing.
I read your post as saying that there was drug screening during a routine physical. If I read it wrong, I retract the statement.

The drug screen is part of the hiring process, not part of getting the FedMed card issued. Both jobs I've had, the initial physical was one process, the drug screen was another, seperate process.

And I am subject to random testing, but I don't have to pass any drug screens to get a new card issued when the old one expires.

And overall, I agree that a DOT physical should be a valid "equivalent" for TIs.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[stratostar 5]

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The drug screen is part of the hiring process, not part of getting the FedMed card issued. Both jobs I've had, the initial physical was one process, the drug screen was another, seperate process.

And I am subject to random testing, but I don't have to pass any drug screens to get a new card issued when the old one expires.

And overall, I agree that a DOT physical should be a valid "equivalent" for TIs.

Correct & correct, most all DOT medical card carriers have gone through the "check out" process, there for unless you fail one, your correct that you need not piss in order to get a new card in two years.

We are on the same page. My points being made here are in regards to BOD members, who to my understanding didn't think the DOT medicals should be allowed for a number of reasons.... I think other wise and IMHO have provided a great deal of reasons as to why it's just as good if not better then the class 3, as long as we're go to go around handing out wavers to a select group of the membership, like military and now NASA peeps.

How many fucking people they got over @ NASA anyway that jump? How many DOT medical card holders are there in USPA that not only jump, but do TDM's?

Answer: A hell of a lot more then over at NASA~

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[Para5-0 0]

Strat,

Although I love your enthusiasm, take a step back take a deep breath and relax a moment. The BOD hasnt done a thing yet it is just on the agenda. Furthermore, I will be bringing up the DOT physical as well. So, dont put the cart before the carrot nobody has voted for anything yet.

With that being said, I so think it will be a royal pain in the ass to start to compile a list of acceptable medicals. But if that is the only way then so be it.

I already know the arguements on both sides, it will come down to a matter of a vote on S&T then a full BOD vote.

[stratostar 5]

I hear you, I never meant to imply it was voted on already, only that other medicals were up for a waver on top those we know were already allowed. Thanks for taking up the topic and bringing it to the table.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo