Why was/is Class 3 Medical For TI

[BobMoore 0]

If you decide to get a Class 2 physical instead of a Class 3 won't the USPA & tandem manufactures accept that?

Hell, go ahead and get a Class 1, but those expire every six months so you'll be seeing the doctor frequently.

"For you see, an airplane is an airplane. A landing area is a landing area. But a dropzone... a dropzone is the people."

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

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If you decide to get a Class 2 physical instead of a Class 3 won't the USPA & tandem manufactures accept that?

Hell, go ahead and get a Class 1, but those expire every six months so you'll be seeing the doctor frequently.

Not really. If you use a higher class medical for a lower required rating (class 2 for private priviliges ect.) it is valid for as long as a class 3 would be. It's the priviliges you exercising that determine the expiration, not the medical exam itself.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[airtwardo 6]

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If you answer yes to any of the back ground/history questions you are screwed and let the games begin. Let me explain on this. You are required to notify the FAA of any surgery past present all medications pass present and any family history. Does anyone do that?

When I got my TI rating in the mid 80's I went for the medical, I listed RK surgery and the Doc handed me the paperwork back saying go try again. Filled it out the 2nd time and passed...wiser.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[matthewcline 0]

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If you answer yes to any of the back ground/history questions you are screwed and let the games begin. Let me explain on this. You are required to notify the FAA of any surgery past present all medications pass present and any family history. Does anyone do that?

When I got my TI rating in the mid 80's I went for the medical, I listed RK surgery and the Doc handed me the paperwork back saying go try again. Filled it out the 2nd time and passed...wiser.

And now that is not an issue. They learn too!

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[pirana 0]

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I had troubles with my class 3 as well. I had a kidney stone way way back my senior year in highschool. They required me to have over 2000 dollars in tests to verify that I didn't have any stones left. It held me up for almost a year before the faa actually got me my medical. Its a bullshit requirement. Im even more annoyed when I have to annualy mail uspa a copy of the medical. Its the same copy that I have to dig out every single time.... make a copy.... mail it again etc... I mean common uspa.... you have the same copy from the last two or three years. You know how long its good for! I hope the costly medical regulations are revised if they are up for discussion.

This is my concern also. It cost me a comprehensive physical, a comprehensive eye exam, some modest fees for chasing down and sending records, and the better part of a season to get my certificate. It sounds like I had better keep all the forms and records handy.

Are they really going to make me send all that shit every year? Even if the result is "no changes to health" from my annual visit to the doc?

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[pirana 0]

My guess is USPA and/or manufacturers want some sort of medical/mental eval in place (and I think that is a very good idea). However, they offload the process to the FAA in order to not have to institute (and bear the burden) of doing it themselves.

The unforunate result (as mentioned or alluded to by Ozzy) is one bureacracy borrowing another bureacracy's red tape - for a purpose it was not intended. It was certainly messy for me - though I'm told my average cycle time of 3 to 4 weeks per round with the FAA was actually quite quick.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[deadwood 0]

More mental masturbation:
Ok, so say I get my Class III and it says I need glasses for near vision when “exercising the privileges of my certificate.”
So I now have a Class III medical, but I don’t wear my near vision correction glasses when doing tandems.
Am I in violation of something?
All the USPA says is I must hold a current Class III Medical which I do. They don’t say I must meet all the restrictions on it when jumping.
As far as the FAA is concerned, I am not exercising the privileges of any certificate (as defined by the FAA) when doing a tandem.

He who hesitates shall inherit the earth.

Deadwood
Skydive New Mexico Motorcycle Club, Touring Division

[riggerrob 558]

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More mental masturbation:
Ok, so say I get my Class III and it says I need glasses for near vision when “exercising the privileges of my certificate.”
So I now have a Class III medical, but I don’t wear my near vision correction glasses when doing tandems.
Am I in violation of something?
All the USPA says is I must hold a current Class III Medical which I do. They don’t say I must meet all the restrictions on it when jumping.
As far as the FAA is concerned, I am not exercising the privileges of any certificate (as defined by the FAA) when doing a tandem.

.......................................................................

Wear your reading glasses while inspecting gear, then wear your long-distance glasses while jumping.
For example, I wear bifocals while driving, but only single (distance vision) sports spectacles while jumping with tandem students.
I do this because I do not want (the reading portion of) my bifocals messing with by depth perception while flaring.

[DiverMike 5]

You can perform the duties of a Tandem instrucutor while completely covering your eyes with a blindfold and the FAA doesn't care. Tandem Instruction is not considered an "aviation duty" so it does not fall under any of the requirements for corrected vision.

If the FAA issues a SB that defines TI to be an aviation duty, you might have to have a pair of granny glasses in your jump suit to conform to:

Farsighted (hyperopic) individuals or presbyopic individuals (those who require reading glasses as they age), are required to have corrective lenses AVAILABLE during aviation duties.

For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board.

[gromet 1]

I assume this thread has died, but I wanted to add that I am having some issues with the FAA and a class III renewal. I called a USPA board member for information on how to go forward and was informed that a DOT commercial drivers medical should suffice by manufacturers standards and may in fact be picked up by the USPA after February's meeting.

Let's be honest, yes there are some TI's that run a very tight ship well within honest FAA regulations, but I personally know TI's that party hard(way out of wack with FAA) and yet they work hard, and they are some of the best, safest TI's I've ever met. The FAA class III medical does not take into consideration well run DZ's with instructors that can draw a line between work and fun.

For those of you that want to get all self righteous with me now, go and turn off the beer light first.

[matthewcline 0]

If you're talking about a "record" of some sort, yes an FAA Class I to III is not going to happen with out hoop jumping.

If you're talking about "partying" with no "record", the FAA Physical is simple to get.

I have not gotten a DOT Physical, never a need, but I would imagine it to be easier since it seems to be the one pushed for recently.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[stratostar 5]

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I have not gotten a DOT Physical, never a need, but I would imagine it to be easier since it seems to be the one pushed for recently.

The FAA class 3 (only one I've done) would be easier to pass, no piss testing for drugs if that is what someone is worried about. Any commercial DOT physical will have a piss test for substances to go with it, the flight medical dose not require it. Can you get a DOT medical card without piss testing... yes you can by law, but in order to operate a commercial vehicle you will need to be in a testing program.

However, answer the questions, asked, as too some medical problems or legal prescription drug use on the FAA medical and you'll find out your out of luck, however on the DOT medical, answer the same questions, honestly, they don't keep you from doing the a safety function dependent job, so you pass.

The only difference in the Class 3 vs DOT is the blood sugar test for diabetes... THAT is it, the only difference between the two, other then the kind of paper work handed in to the DOT.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[gromet 1]

Is a commercial DOT medical considered equivalent or exceeding the requirements of an FAA class III? I haven't found any literature, manufacturers recommendations, or USPA guidlines that explicitly states that a DOT physical will work as well. If this were the case it seems much quicker, cheaper, and if you're clean and only dealing with historical non-record related incidents easier to go the DOT route.

[matthewcline 0]

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I have not gotten a DOT Physical, never a need, but I would imagine it to be easier since it seems to be the one pushed for recently.

The FAA class 3 (only one I've done) would be easier to pass, no piss testing for drugs if that is what someone is worried about. Any commercial DOT physical will have a piss test for substances to go with it, the flight medical dose not require it. Can you get a DOT medical card without piss testing... yes you can by law, but in order to operate a commercial vehicle you will need to be in a testing program.

However, answer the questions, asked, as too some medical problems or legal prescription drug use on the FAA medical and you'll find out your out of luck, however on the DOT medical, answer the same questions, honestly, they don't keep you from doing the a safety function dependent job, so you pass.

The only difference in the Class 3 vs DOT is the blood sugar test for diabetes... THAT is it, the only difference between the two, other then the kind of paper work handed in to the DOT.

So I understand, the DOT Physical has a piss test for illegal drugs in it? But will allow for a record of conviction if in a current testing program to show being "clean"?

Does the holder have to be in a test program to keep the physical?

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[stratostar 5]

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Is a commercial DOT medical considered equivalent or exceeding the requirements of an FAA class III?I haven't found any literature, manufacturers recommendations, or USPA guidlines that explicitly states that a DOT physical will work as well.

How about asking if all the wavered or allowed medicals the USPA currently allows by some members... do those medicals meet or beat (equivalent) to the DOT or the FAA medical. The answer is yes to the FAA seeing how it's waved by USPA. So how do those others stack up to the DOT as equivalent? I'm willing to bet they do.

As I said, the DOT is the same damn test as the FAA class 3 exam, the only difference is a piss test for sugar levels, they even check for that too.

If one medical is good enough for a branch of the DOT, the FAA & class 3, then all other branches of the DOT medicals should be allowed as well if we are now going to start handing out wavers to military people (most the military ones are equal to the DOT ones) and now for NASA. A lot of skydivers hold valid DOT medical cards, along with Class A -B & C drivers licenses for operation of different types of vehicles in the performance of their daily job duties. This includes pilots, who get theirs in compliance with DOT regulations, the same as a truck driver gets one under the DOT regulations, each one is cleared medically to be fit to operate a killing machine that endangers the general public on an hourly if not each second of the day.

If your kids school bus driver's DOT medical card is good enough to drive little Sally to and from school and the likes, then it's should be damn good and well for the bus driver to take your fat ass friend on a fucking tandem with the same valid medical card!

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[stratostar 5]

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So I understand, the DOT Physical has a piss test for illegal drugs in it?

It dose if you are going to be operating a vehicle or other safety sensitivity job that the fail to preform could cause loss to the general public or other workers.

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But will allow for a record of conviction if in a current testing program to show being "clean"?

Conviction? what do you mean? Someone with crime record or someone who failed a test before? There is no conviction that I know of for someone who failed a piss test, yes they can be in a testing program and remain in one testing dirty or clean and still hold a valid medical card.

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Does the holder have to be in a test program to keep the physical? ***

Not that I'm aware of, dose the tandem I, who failed the piss test for the DZO get to keep their valid FAA class 3 medical card?

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[PhreeZone 14]

FAA will forbid you from getting a Class 3 if you have bad multiple substance/alcahol convictions on your record. Typically this is in the form of DUI's but I've seen discussion on pilot forums of multiple narcotic arrests as being grounds for the FAA denying a physical at renewal time unless the person has been through a flight psych program to clear them on these types of issues. Does the DOT do the same thing where if you have multiple DUI convictions they will not grant you a physical?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[stratostar 5]

If you got DUI's, any in the last ten years, then I would have to say no, you won't be seeking a medical to operate safety sensitive vehicles like a school bus, big truck, crane, train, forklift, earth mover etc. with a DUI record that is less then ten years old. Also DOT medical cards expire in two years for everyone.

(hell I know people who mow lawns for a living who had to get a CDL & medical card because of the truck and trailer they drive to haul the mowing shit around)

Any employer who is sending a person to under go such an exam would have already vetted the applicant prior for such records, same as any other employer would or should do before entrusting their customers and business relations to the actions of an employee, however this is the skydiving industry we're talking about where having felons run the show is not all that uncommon place and corner cutting is a way of life so we all know the dz rats who can't remain a non drunk, hell most of um still stink like booze on the way to the plane or are still tripping from the X they took last night, but the DZO's do their own little "home drug testing kits" and not a DOT approved testing program anyway, it don't take much in the health dept to pass the class 3 FAA or the DOT medicals.

So as it stands, seem reasonable that if a person can pass and hold a valid DOT medical card that is good in all 50 states and Canada under USDOT regulations to safely transport children, goods & services on all major highways, byways, county roads and city streets... I fail to understand how & why that is not approved under USPA when we are granting wavers to military physicals based on their job functions and now NASA as well, in order to take a tandem up.

FAA live in the house of the USDOT, they are a branch of the DOT

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[diablopilot 2]

This is a question to the whole thread.

If the FAA requires someone (a pilot) who is going to carry a passenger for hire to hold a medical and all the standards it requires someone to adhere to then why should we (the USPA, or manufacturers) require anything less? In essence it's the same job.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[velvetjo 0]

Diablo, I agree with your point in general, and have no problem with the idea of requiring a Class 2 medical for TM's in principle. That said, there are two big factors in play:

1 - limited supply of TM candidates doesn't allow for that level of medical scrutiny

2 - FAA doesn't regulate tandem licenses directly

The current system seems like a reasonable compromise between the aviation medical system and our self-regulated world. But, I'm betting that if we have any high-profile tandem student injuries or fatalities, you'll see #2 change and we'll all be looking at Class 2 medicals as TM's.

The FAA is letting sport pilots self-certify medicals now with a valid driver's license, but that's for strictly non-commercial stuff. They draw a pretty hard line with lots of things at commercial vs, non-commercial. For that reason, I wouldn't be surprised if the FAA pushes back on USPA for the proposed DOT vs. FAA medical change.

Lance

[stratostar 5]

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For that reason, I wouldn't be surprised if the FAA pushes back on USPA for the proposed DOT vs. FAA medical change.

They had a chance to do that when tandems went legit and they didn't, then they had the chance when 105 was rewritten and they didn't. The FAA makes no requirement under 105, other then stating following MFG & USPA.

Kind of like the FAA says we must wear two parachutes, but no where do they say we have to use them, just don't endanger people or property on the ground when going splat.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[vanair 0]

I'll make a quick reply now and then tell my whole story later when I have time. First of all the FAA does allow self medicals for commercial operations ie. LSA instruction, They don't need medicals nor do tandem hang glider or tandem paraglider instuctors. So it is not the FAA it is the DZOs that want it. They want it to take the burden off themselves so they get the benefits without having to pay for it. This is probably why they will switch to DOT's so they can get the benefit of drug testing without paying for it.

[ozzy13 0]

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If you're talking about "partying" with no "record", the FAA Physical is simple to get.

Yea simple if you lie threw your teeth. If you answer anything but no on any question there will be hoops to jump threw trust me.


The best part is the FAA gives a rats ass that you do or dont have a class three too do tandems. Its the manufacturers that want it. That information came straight from the late Ted Strong.

Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

[ozzy13 0]

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I'll make a quick reply now and then tell my whole story later when I have time. First of all the FAA does allow self medicals for commercial operations ie. LSA instruction, They don't need medicals nor do tandem hang glider or tandem paraglider instuctors. So it is not the FAA it is the DZOs that want it. They want it to take the burden off themselves so they get the benefits without having to pay for it. This is probably why they will switch to DOT's so they can get the benefit of drug testing without paying for it.

Im sorry but you are not fully correct. Its the manufacture of the equipment that requires you that have class 3 or equivalent

edited to add this:

here is a message i got from ted in feb of 2011

Jerry:
A class 3 medical was Strong Enterprises and Relative Workshop's doing.
It increases the quality of T/I's and increases tandem safety.
Bottom line. Tandem is for the student/passenger, not the instructor.
Make it as safe as possible for them.

If you'd like to talk it over more give me an email and we can go from there.
[email protected]

Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

[stratostar 5]

The only part Van got wrong was this:

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So it is not the FAA it is the DZOs that want it. They want it to take the burden off themselves so they get the benefits without having to pay for it. This is probably why they will switch to DOT's so they can get the benefit of drug testing without paying for it.

While the logic is correct the info is wrong.... Yes at first glance it would seem DZO's would want this in order to have with out paying for it "drug testing" .... then who is going to pay for it? The TI's??? LOL

The only way a DZO would have a person who is holding a valid DOT medical card with a drug test is if, that person is employed by a company (trucker or school bus) who takes part in a "a DOT approved program".

Unless your Larry Hill or one of the other "big boys" your not going to be able to afford to run and keep a program going for a skydiving staff, (you can only be in one testing program at a time) it's the cost that to this day, has kept every DZO I've ever heard talk about starting a drug testing program, not one has ever followed through, each and every time they all have ended up doing the home testing kits in the office and not a real chain of custody USDOT approved medical testing program ran by a doctors office and 3rd party testing labs, who are certified USDOT compliant providers.

The reason is cost plain and simple and the fact it is too easier to fake a test with the home testing kits if one of the favored staff is the one being looked at.

By the USPA & MFG's allowing a DOT medical card for TI's only helps the TI's who already have one due to their real jobs and those who can get one for cheaper then a class 1,2,3 FAA. It in no way helps DZO's be cheap and get "real" drug testing without paying for it.

In fact it is possible get a DOT medical without a piss test, uncommon as hell , but legal and possible to do. Those who do get them with out pissing, will not be operating on public roads and remain legal. All that medical dose is say to the DOT, your healthy enough to function in your job without having a health related problem and running over a car or bus load of people and killing them, or driving a D8 Cat over the construction crew because your missing a leg or arm.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo