ozzy13 0 #1 February 6, 2011 I wondering why/who made it a requirement to have to do Tandems? I heard that UPT is not the one that requires it. Its USPA that is. So how did we come to this requirement and for what reason? The FAA can give a rats ass about tandem skydives when it comes to the class 3 medical. Anybody?Never give the gates up and always trust your rears! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 370 #2 February 6, 2011 QuoteI wondering why/who made it a requirement to have to do Tandems? I heard that UPT is not the one that requires it. Its USPA that is. So how did we come to this requirement and for what reason? The FAA can give a rats ass about tandem skydives when it comes to the class 3 medical. Anybody? Actually the FAA does give a rat's ass about medicals for TI's. A skydiver is a skydiver, but a tandem instructor is pilot with a passenger.Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GLIDEANGLE 1 #3 February 6, 2011 I can't remember the story. However, I seem to recollect that Strong required a medical before USPA did. http://www.strongparachutes.com/Documents/PDF_Files/Tandemprerequisites.pdfThe choices we make have consequences, for us & for others! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peek 20 #4 February 6, 2011 Quote1. I wondering why/who made it a requirement to have to do Tandems? 2. I heard that UPT is not the one that requires it. 3. It is USPA that is. So how did we come to this requirement and for what reason? 4. The FAA can give a rats ass about tandem skydives when it comes to the class 3 medical. 1. It was in the original Exemption, and when it came off exemption the FAA wrote the updated FAR105 to reflect what was in the exemption 2. You might need to give us the source of that 3. Correct, USPA is following what it considers to be a prudent course in its taking over the ratings. (Whether USPA is doing a good job of that is an entirely different subject!) 4. Personally, I think they care very much. Again, I think you are going to need to tell us the source upon which you are basing that Since tandem jumping is no longer considered "experimental" as described in the exemption, and since the FAR has been written in a way that describes a tandem student as a "passenger", it should be apparent that the FAA considers tandem jumping the equivalent of "commercial carriage". Commercial carriage in aircraft requires commercial pilot certificates and a second class medical. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ozzy13 0 #5 February 6, 2011 Not true. The FAA does not require you to have a class 3 medical to do a tandem skydive.. If they did require us to have a medical it would be a class 2. that is what you need work for hire. Show in writing where it states you are required to hold a class 3 medical to do a tandem skydive. I know USPA requires it but show in the FAR's or anywhere the FAA states this. I see no requirement in FAR 105 that states you need a medical http://www.flightsimaviation.com/data/FARS/part_105-45.html Iv talked to the FAA on numinous accounts. They don't even consider the skydive itself a flight operation I'm looking more of the history of why this came into affect. I'm thinking it was a manufacture requirement at first for liability reasons and now its the same for USPA but like I said I can not find anything regarding tandems skydives requiring a medical anywhere in FAA documents. It would be nice if Bill Booth,Ted Strong or someone of that stature would chime in.Never give the gates up and always trust your rears! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ozzy13 0 #6 February 6, 2011 QuoteI can't remember the story. However, I seem to recollect that Strong required a medical before USPA did. http://www.strongparachutes.com/Documents/PDF_Files/Tandemprerequisites.pdf Ok from strongs: FAA Requirements: 1. Minimum of 3-years skydiving experience 2. Minimum of 500 free-fall parachute jumps. 3. USPA or FAI expert parachute license. Strong Enterprises Prerequisites: 1. Minimum of 18 years of age. 2. 50 jumps within the last year. 3. Jumpmaster or Instructor rating, or the Basic Instructor Course (BIC), or coach. 4. One intentional or emergency cut-a-way. 5. Four hours of freefall time. 6. Current FAA Class III Flight Physical, or parachuting physical approved by a national parachuting association or the military. If thats the case the highlighted area would make me think it was a manufacture requirement not FAA. But why? again if I can get a medical from a parachuting association that to me means the FAA don't care. Just my thought process. UPT Requirements http://www.unitedparachutetechnologies.com/PDF/Support/Tandem%20Information/05550%28TIcheckList%29.pdfNever give the gates up and always trust your rears! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 370 #7 February 6, 2011 QuoteNot true. The FAA does not require you to have a class 3 medical to do a tandem skydive.. If they did require us to have a medical it would be a class 2. that is what you need work for hire. Show in writing where it states you are required to hold a class 3 medical to do a tandem skydive. I know USPA requires it but show in the FAR's or anywhere the FAA states this. I see no requirement in FAR 105 that states you need a medical http://www.flightsimaviation.com/data/FARS/part_105-45.html Iv talked to the FAA on numinous accounts. They don't even consider the skydive it self a flight operation I'm looking more of the history of why this came into affect. I'm thinking it was a manufacture requirement at first for liability reasons and now its the same for USPA but like I said I can not find anything regarding tandems skydives requiring a medical anywhere in FAA documents. It would be nice if Bill Booth or someone of that stature would chime in. My bad. I'm pretty sure it was an FAA requirement before the transition to USPA control. Either that or the manufacturers required it.Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ozzy13 0 #8 February 6, 2011 QuoteQuoteNot true. The FAA does not require you to have a class 3 medical to do a tandem skydive.. If they did require us to have a medical it would be a class 2. that is what you need work for hire. Show in writing where it states you are required to hold a class 3 medical to do a tandem skydive. I know USPA requires it but show in the FAR's or anywhere the FAA states this. I see no requirement in FAR 105 that states you need a medical http://www.flightsimaviation.com/data/FARS/part_105-45.html Iv talked to the FAA on numinous accounts. They don't even consider the skydive it self a flight operation I'm looking more of the history of why this came into affect. I'm thinking it was a manufacture requirement at first for liability reasons and now its the same for USPA but like I said I can not find anything regarding tandems skydives requiring a medical anywhere in FAA documents. It would be nice if Bill Booth or someone of that stature would chime in. My bad. I'm pretty sure it was an FAA requirement before the transition to USPA control. Either that or the manufacturers required it. Hey you are not alone here. Their are a lot of misunderstanding on this matter. You ask ten people and you will get 10 answers. I'm thinking the same thing that it was the manufacturers at first and now USPA. It would be nice to know why? Especially if the FAA is not requiring itNever give the gates up and always trust your rears! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 261 #9 February 6, 2011 Quote 6. Current FAA Class III Flight Physical, or parachuting physical approved by a national parachuting association or the military. While I don't know for sure, I thought the highlighted part was to cover those outside the USA -- to try to get some sort of medical even if they couldn't realistically enforce the same standards as in the USA. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Para5-0 0 #10 February 6, 2011 This topic is on the agenda for the Safety and Training commitee next week in Reno. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #11 February 6, 2011 If it's not longer required by 105 like in the experimental days, then it should be dropped by USPA as a requirement and MFG's too. The whole thing is a PITA and cost more money for the joy of a having a rating.you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vanair 0 #12 February 7, 2011 also it skews the figure that AOPA and the FAA use to try to determine the # of active pilots and new student pilots. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #13 February 7, 2011 one of the DZ's where I jump here in Switz asks for a ClassII as here you transport passengers and not students, so you would be considered a commercial pilot. I think it is not a bad thing to ask Tandem Pilots to check their health from ime to timescissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimjumper 25 #14 February 7, 2011 It's not the health check, it's the widely varying requirements of the medical examiners. Some doctors have the requirement of "breathing-not blind" here you go, while some are of the opinion "Are you ready to run a marathon and do you have perfect 20/20 eyesight" opinion. I know of an ATP rated pilot with one eye! When I asked about it at my last physical I was told that as long as it was noted on his medical card it was up to the pilot examiner to determine whether or not his flight performance was up to standards. Since Tandem-I's are only given performance reviews in the real world physical's are a waste of time and money. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ozzy13 0 #15 February 7, 2011 Here is the class three requirements. http://www.aopa.org/members/files/fars/far-67.html#14:2.0.1.1.5.4 If you answer yes to any of the back ground/history questions you are screwed and let the games begin. Let me explain on this. You are required to notify the FAA of any surgery past present all medications pass present and any family history. Does anyone do that? I know I won't get a true answer to that because of the Internet. Example. You get your medical. You get hurt and have Surgery. Doc give you pain killers. You are required to tell the FAA of this. The moment you do this your medical will be revolked pending months of paperwork, for what I ask? It's my opion for the most part if every TI answers truthfully on the FAA app. We would have no TIs. They the FAA can reject you for a drug prescribed by a doctor from 20 years ago. Is that fair/ right. I'm not saying that TIs health shouldn't be checked but let's get away from requirement that involves the government when it doesn't need to be.Never give the gates up and always trust your rears! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ozzy13 0 #16 February 7, 2011 One more thing to add. If the FAA requires this medical to do tandems, why is it I can go to a non USPA dz and do tandems tomorrow with no medical? Better yet as far as i was told i can do tandems with experience jumpers at uspa drop zones without a medical How is all this possible if the FAA requires a medical for this. Just a question :) I'll even take this one step further. If the FAA wanted they wouldput in place this requirement. We as USPA wants to set a standard. Well half measures eval nothing. Again Tandem skydives are not a flight operation. A regular skydive is not either. If so, every skydiver would need a class three as they are pilots in command. Ill even take it further. All working skydives ( AFFI,TANDEM I, Static Line, coaches, video guy,ect) would need a class 2 because they are a pilot for hire. So where is the standard. I understand that in the experimental days they put it in so we can show the faa that we set a standard. Well its clear to me that when the FAA moved it from experimental to in use they wrote their standards for doing such a jump and we should follow suit with what they are requiring. No more. No less. Any thoughts?Never give the gates up and always trust your rears! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
michalm21 0 #17 February 7, 2011 Not to disagree with you, as this is not a response to your last post, just wanted to bring it up that there are countries that require what's essentially equivalent of class 3 medical (valid 1-5 years) to take aff course and skydive in general.... just food for thought in general hope you get your shit taken care of. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ozzy13 0 #18 February 7, 2011 Quote Not to disagree with you, as this is not a response to your last post, just wanted to bring it up that there are countries that require what's essentially equivalent of class 3 medical (valid 1-5 years) to take aff course and skydive in general.... just food for thought in general hope you get your shit taken care of. Hey im open for all conversation on this. I hear you about other countries. Im just trying to understand the class three medical. How it was put in place, reason for keeping it ect. In the U.S. the FAA controls the air space. We as skydivers have to adhere to the FAR's Im good with all that. I see the FAA made a standard for us. Now why would USPA add to that? I have to meet a standard to fly a plane and I am never going to do that, nor want to. But the FAA does not require me to get this medical to do tandens. What I see is a FAA standard that does not meet with USPA's standard. So as a Tandem master Uspa is telling me I need to meet the FAA standards to do this. The part I don't get is the FAA doesn't require me too. So where is the standard. As it sits their are 2 standards I guess I'm looking for something that is not there. At least they will have something to talk about in RenoNever give the gates up and always trust your rears! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
michalm21 0 #19 February 7, 2011 I totally agree with you. This sucks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chris74 0 #20 February 7, 2011 Hello birds, Just for fun, here in France, a French Professional parachutist has to qualify for a first class medical certificate. So do i ... Blue sky Xtophe Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,340 #21 February 7, 2011 Just out of curiostiy, what constitutes a French "First Class Medical"? What level of pilot certificate is it used for? Here in the US: 3rd Class - Student and Private Pilots 2nd Class - Commercial Pilots 1st Class - Airline Transport Pilots Obviously the higher the class, the more stringent the requirements. Personally, I have to renew my 2nd Class every year to be able to fly jumpers (Commercial Pilot). I can see a valid reason for TIs to have to pass some sort of physical exam on a regular basis. I also think that TIs should have mandatory recurrency training, similar to the Biennial Flight Review required for pilots. The 3rd Class is probably the simplest and most appropriate of the FAA medical exams. I understand Ozzy13 is having a lot of probems getting his, and the degree to which a doctor can arbitrarily fail an applicant is a real issue here."There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #22 February 7, 2011 QuoteAll working skydives ( AFFI,TANDEM I, Static Line, coaches, video guy,ect) would need a class 2 because they are a pilot for hire. So where is the standard. You're right. I think the standard ought to be changed. Upwards.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheCaptain 2 #23 February 7, 2011 I have always had my flight physical done by one doctor up until my last one I just got done. Mine ran around $190 each and were extremely therow; however my last one cost $90 and well was a vision test and pee test only. I think they should be required but more therow then my last one.Kirk He's dead Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GLIDEANGLE 1 #24 February 7, 2011 I suspect that what you will find is that in the negotiations about USPA taking over the ratings, that one or more of the manufacturers said "We will allow you to take this over only if you require a medical, as we have required in the past." As I recollect, the FAA Class 3 became required by USPA because they found enforcement very difficlut without a clearly defined requirement... thus the Class 3. I recollect reading that they were getting a variety of "medicals" and needed some rule regarding what was acceptable and what was not. The really unfortunate part of this mess is that the current medical screening process gets all balled up in stuff that does not matter, and can't catch some of the more important (but tough to screen) problems. For example, any substance abuse or mental health history gums up the works tremendously. Yet, the current process won't detect coronary artery disease which has no symptoms. Thus, the currently mentally healthy and substace abuse free applicant is seen as a problem... but a guy who is about to have a massive heart attack may be deemed OK. The current medical screening process is a blunt tool. That said, I am not sure that there is a cogent argument against some sort of screening for jumpers who are taking paying customers for a tandem jump.The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GLIDEANGLE 1 #25 February 7, 2011 Quote The whole thing is a PITA and cost more money for the joy of a having a rating. It isn't about the TI's joy.... it is about protecting paying customers.The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
