taking tandem students wingsuiting

[robinheid 0]

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Ive read through this whole thread, found it quite interesting to say the least!

I figured I would throw in my thoughts, from a different perspective, being as I am not licensed to jump, but have a few tandems, and am planning on continuing to get my A license.

I am in no way claiming my 3 tandems are any sort of knowledge base for actually jumping, or wingsuiting! SO please dont jump down my throat too much.

But from a VERY new person to the sport, this idea seems pretty cool. I understand there are A LOT of risks to this, and every other form of skydiving.

Personally, a tandem wingsuit jump would definitely appeal to me as a new jumper!!! I've always been somewhat infatuated with skydiving, thus why I did a tandem jump before I got deployed. Doing the Tandem only Fueled my desire to jump again, and so I started searching the net for video's and what not. That naturally produced me seeing wing suit video's and my reaction of "Holy crap I want to do that"!

Now that I have done a few more tandems, and have done more research into the process of what it takes to get to the level on wingsuiting this is somewhat MORE appealing.

I would LOVE the chance to fly in the sky longer than just the average freefall, via wingsuit. Thats a chance at a dream of many people! And if they could offer this as a legitimate option as DZ's, I would be all for it!!

I understand MANY things can go wrong, a lot that I have no knowledge of at this point even. But I dont think something like this should be shunned so heavily before testing etc... My impression of the skydiving world was of MOST of them wanting to try new and innovative jump ideas, Like falling with a car from the sky etc.... and this getting such a Bad rap seems kind of counter to that impression... I do understand both sides of the argument though, if this was a new jumper.

In my very uneducated opinion, I don't see harm in trying to develop tandem wingsuiting. There is going to be risk involved obviously, and thus should have parameters trying to govern that risk during its development as much as possible. But If you can find the right people to do the testing, go for it!

Obviously there will be more at play than just finding the right people, like legalities and such... But those things can probably be worked through if a big enough push from the industry? I think it would be a great way to draw more people towards the sport.

and maybe these people putting it out there that they are doing it regardless of all else, will maybe light a fire for the harness manf. to try and come up with a tandem wingsuit harness? or maybe start the negotiations at least lol

Soo here is some input from a ULTRA NOOB. I know a lot of you will probably be smacking yourselves in the face at reading this. BUT I am trying to stay humble as I am acknowledging my inexperience and ignorance about skydiving. I thought it may be interesting for some of the more experienced people to see if from someone with basically none, and to further this conversation positively, and maybe end the name calling for a while.


ok so there is my .02!

+1

SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."

[robinheid 0]

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At the very least you do realize you don't know what you don't know.
If you had the experience, knowledge, and understanding, I'd hope you would see the added risk simply isn't worth taking.

Better be careful... you don't want to piss off all the whuffos by stealing their words, attitude and outlook like that -- not to mention all the doctors who say the same supercilious thing to peeps who don't wear helmets when they ride a scoot.

SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."

[Ron 7]

And there you go again.... Full of talk and no action.

You talked like you could do anything... When challenged to back it up, you ran like a little girl and hid.

Now you are trying to talk tough.... See a pattern here?

When you actually act the way you type.... Let me know. You *might* be worth a giggle to listen to then.

For you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlJMk4VKYTE&feature=fvst

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[fasted3 0]

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Anyway, if you can expand your offer to 10 tickets instead of 1, you are ON and thanks for the offer... I think it will indeed be fun and maybe even create something valuable for others.

This sounds like a good idea, but what's up, you don't pay for jump tickets?

As a wingsuitor, but not a tandem guy, here is my .01 on the whole issue of tandem wingsuiting:
I don't really care if people do it.
However, I think it's nuts. I would only do it on top with a cutaway system for the pax, and would never get on the bottom. If a spin gets started, I don't know if anybody could stop it. I don't think I could, but I know I could start one if I tried, (even a little bit!)

But what do I know?

[DSE 3]

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As a wingsuitor, but not a tandem guy, here is my .01 on the whole issue of tandem wingsuiting:
I don't really care if people do it.

You should care; the moment some dumbfuck hurts a whuffo, it'll likely have a big impact on wingsuits (who are already on FAA radar).

That said, you're right, Ed...flatspins are incredibly easy to start and not easy to stop, even if you're experienced.

Does the irony of Robin's last posts stymie anyone else?
Robin demands 10 jumps to figure out what is required for a TI and whuffo to figure out in one jump.

[robinheid 0]

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And there you go again.... Full of talk and no action.

You talked like you could do anything... When challenged to back it up, you ran like a little girl and hid.

Now you are trying to talk tough.... See a pattern here?

When you actually act the way you type.... Let me know. You *might* be worth a giggle to listen to then.

For you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlJMk4VKYTE&feature=fvst

The pattern I see is your inability or refusal to actually understand what I write and instead to persist in your personal opinion based on nothing I have written in this thread in order to hurl junior-high-school-caliber taunts at my masculinity.

Well, whatever makes your ducky quack, kid, but to reiterate for the record: 1) tandem wingsuiting is something that needs to be explored carefully rather than whined, sniveled and railed about as if it's the second coming of Satan; 2) the delta position is an important tool in any spin recovery toolbox, with or without a wingsuit; and 3) I accepted DWE's "ride-my-back-while-I-do-a-flat-spin-and-see-if-you-can-stay-on" offer on its face and, after declining his original offer to film me doing a flat spin recovery, I made a counter-offer thereto which is currently on the table.

Anyway, I'm done talking with you until you learn how to read better or at least stop reading your own opinions into what I write -- and good luck with the remedial reading courses.

SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."

[robinheid 0]

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Anyway, if you can expand your offer to 10 tickets instead of 1, you are ON and thanks for the offer... I think it will indeed be fun and maybe even create something valuable for others.

This sounds like a good idea, but what's up, you don't pay for jump tickets?

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Thanks, and what's UP is not whether I pay for jump tickets or not but the simple fact that DWE offered to pay for my ticket (plus provide all necessary gear, suits and video coverage) as part of his challenge to me that I show him how to use a delta to get out of a flat spin.

I made a counter-offer (outlined above) that remains on the table. Hopefully, it will be accepted and then we'll strap on the rigs and suits and cameras and see if we can contribute to the body of wingsuit spin recovery knowledge without contributing to the wingsuit body count.

SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."

[robinheid 0]

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As a wingsuitor, but not a tandem guy, here is my .01 on the whole issue of tandem wingsuiting:
I don't really care if people do it.

You should care; the moment some dumbfuck hurts a whuffo, it'll likely have a big impact on wingsuits (who are already on FAA radar).

That said, you're right, Ed...flatspins are incredibly easy to start and not easy to stop, even if you're experienced.

Does the irony of Robin's last posts stymie anyone else?
Robin demands 10 jumps to figure out what is required for a TI and whuffo to figure out in one jump.

Yo DWE, maybe you should borrow Ron's remedial reading books if he ever finishes them.

I demanded nothing; I accepted both of your invitations: one, exactly as you made it; the other, with a counter-offer that expanded one component of said invitation.

I'll be in Elsinore next week. Are we on for one or both of your invitations -- or not?

SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."

[DSE 3]

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As a wingsuitor, but not a tandem guy, here is my .01 on the whole issue of tandem wingsuiting:
I don't really care if people do it.

You should care; the moment some dumbfuck hurts a whuffo, it'll likely have a big impact on wingsuits (who are already on FAA radar).

That said, you're right, Ed...flatspins are incredibly easy to start and not easy to stop, even if you're experienced.

Does the irony of Robin's last posts stymie anyone else?
Robin demands 10 jumps to figure out what is required for a TI and whuffo to figure out in one jump.

Yo DWE, maybe you should borrow Ron's remedial reading books if he ever finishes them.

I demanded nothing; I accepted both of your invitations: one, exactly as you made it; the other, with a counter-offer that expanded one component of said invitation.

I'll be in Elsinore next week. Are we on for one or both of your invitations -- or not?

You're on for one jump on my dime in a suit of my choosing, with an induced spin, exactly as originally offered and thus declined on your part.
Can't WAIT to see you use a "delta" to get out of a spin

[robinheid 0]

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As a wingsuitor, but not a tandem guy, here is my .01 on the whole issue of tandem wingsuiting:
I don't really care if people do it.

You should care; the moment some dumbfuck hurts a whuffo, it'll likely have a big impact on wingsuits (who are already on FAA radar).

That said, you're right, Ed...flatspins are incredibly easy to start and not easy to stop, even if you're experienced.

Does the irony of Robin's last posts stymie anyone else?
Robin demands 10 jumps to figure out what is required for a TI and whuffo to figure out in one jump.

Yo DWE, maybe you should borrow Ron's remedial reading books if he ever finishes them.

I demanded nothing; I accepted both of your invitations: one, exactly as you made it; the other, with a counter-offer that expanded one component of said invitation.

I'll be in Elsinore next week. Are we on for one or both of your invitations -- or not?

You're on for one jump on my dime in a suit of my choosing, with an induced spin, exactly as originally offered and thus declined on your part.
Can't WAIT to see you use a "delta" to get out of a spin

so you've withdrawn THIS offer?

"Tell ya what...you can ride my back like a pony, that'll be close to the unicorns Labrys wants. Try to hang on during a flat spin. Would be a new experience for me, too. Never done an intentional with someone on my back before. Might be kinda fun in a butterfly/pony way."

SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."

[DSE 3]

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You're on for one jump on my dime in a suit of my choosing, with an induced spin, exactly as originally offered and thus declined on your part.
Can't WAIT to see you use a "delta" to get out of a spin

so you've withdrawn THIS offer?

"Tell ya what...you can ride my back like a pony, that'll be close to the unicorns Labrys wants. Try to hang on during a flat spin. Would be a new experience for me, too. Never done an intentional with someone on my back before. Might be kinda fun in a butterfly/pony way."



That was never an "offer," Robin. Twas a joke that many folks in the wingsuit community understood.
S'ok. I understand why you won't/can't get down on the offer I made. No shame in being afraid of a flatspin. Most intelligent people are.

[robinheid 0]

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You're on for one jump on my dime in a suit of my choosing, with an induced spin, exactly as originally offered and thus declined on your part.
Can't WAIT to see you use a "delta" to get out of a spin

so you've withdrawn THIS offer?

"Tell ya what...you can ride my back like a pony, that'll be close to the unicorns Labrys wants. Try to hang on during a flat spin. Would be a new experience for me, too. Never done an intentional with someone on my back before. Might be kinda fun in a butterfly/pony way."

That was never an "offer," Robin. Twas a joke that many folks in the wingsuit community understood.
S'ok. I understand why you won't/can't get down on the offer I made. No shame in being afraid of a flatspin. Most intelligent people are.

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Yes, DWE, it WAS an offer, in exactly the way the first one was: you proposed it in writing on this thread -- and now you're not only withdrawing it (too rich for your blood, I guess), you're tripping over your tail feathers trying to pretend you didn't make it. (Gee, what a surprise).

As for your original offer that also may or may not be an "offer:"

I accept -- even though many folks in the wingsuit community understand THAT offer to be the real joke because of your reckless disregard for my lack of currency in your pursuit of proving me wrong (I mean, excuse me for bringing up an inconvenient truth, but wasn't this whole thread about a wingsuit god who recklessly endangered someone who was essentially clueless in order to show everyone how cool he was?).

But while you approach this recklessly, I don't, which is why I'm still jumping after 38 years, and why you won't be.

So you'll have to wait while I get wingsuit-current again before I come over and we sort out what's what. I'm sure it'll be good video if you can keep up with me.

So, thanks for your generous offer. It'll be fun.

Thanks even more for the nudge -- just the motivation I needed to start spending more time in the sky again.

See you soon -- unless, of course, by accepting this offer, it magically becomes a joke too.

SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."

[normiss 622]

Why do you repeatedly refer to him as 'DWE'?

[Ron 7]

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I don't, which is why I'm still jumping after 38 years, and why you won't be.

Well, in half your time in sport I have managed to almost have double your jump number. DSE has almost your jump number in about 1/7th your time in sport.

Another example of your "all talk, no action". Its not hard to jump for lots of years if you only do a handful a year. Too funny.

But, keep it up... It is funny as hell to see you proclaim yourself a WS expert and argue with a real WS expert.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[simon021 0]

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Why do you repeatedly refer to him as 'DWE'?

I'm trying to figure this out myself...Did I miss something in the thread?

[normiss 622]

"Douglas, Wingsuit Extraordinaire"
"Douglas Wingsuit Expert"

but most likely:

"Douglas Wingsuit Eagle"

[robinheid 0]

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Probably about the same time tandem rig manufacturers stop making rigs.

That just means more orders for Abbie and Tree.

LOL

Wingsuit tandems are a great idea as long at the TI is experienced on wingsuits. They will force a re-think of tandem jumping because the drogue system on tandems in inherently dangerous because it makes the whole malfunction event and decision tree so much more complex.

Most peeps forget that Booth's original tandem rigs didn't have drogues... if I recall correctly, it was Ted Strong who introduced the drogue to slow down the deployment speed because HIS parachutes were blowing up.

Then someone figured out that you could film a drogue-fall tandem and thus was born a cool carnival ride.

After a spate of tandem fatalities involving very experienced tandem masters a decade or so ago, I did a study and found no correlation between TI experience and fatality rate -- ergo, it doesn't matter how good you are, the complexity of the system can still overwhelm you.

But when I suggested to one tandem manufacturer that getting rid of the drogue was the answer -- especially given that freeflying allowed drogue-less tandem photography, he laughed and said: "If I got rid of the drogue, half my tandem masters couldn't get stable."

So we persist in keeping the drogue around despite its obvious and documented dangers because there aren't enough TIs capable enough to do tandems without one -- and then talk smack about a system that not only eliminates the greatest cause of tandem fatalities -- drogue-related screwups -- it gives the TI greater control over his customer.

I mean D'OH! when the customer has on a wingsuit it literally straitjackets them into a reasonably aerodynamic and symmetrical body position -- and especially reduces their ability to disrupt the TI with their arms.

And D'OH! a wingsuit also eliminates the chance that the customer will fall out of an improperly adjusted tandem harness.

Yes, wingsuit tandem requires a higher-order skillset on the part of the TI, who must now include wingsuit proficiency along with general freefall and canopy handling proficiency, but those who have the requisite skillset will in fact be able to provide their customers with a demonstably safer and aesthetically better experience.

So get used to it -- and quit WHINING.

bump to get back to the original thread subject

SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."

[normiss 622]

That's it's foolish to take tandems on 'wingsuit' jumps.
Agreed.

[robinheid 0]

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Reward to student: They get to do a skydive where they think they're really flying (with a G/R of more than 1:1, maybe they are, sorta). They get to wear wings and feel like "Batman."
I don't think anyone would have a clue about the difference between drogue-assisted and wingsuit freefall.

Risk to student; hell...I just don't feel like typing all that. This TI, who is supposed to be a very experienced wingsuit pilot, seems to be struggling to keep alignment.
What if the student is much taller? Sidespin recovery? Flatspin recovery?
I don't think it is as dangerous as people make it out to be if preserved in a bubble, but as a general practice and not a stunt? It's a frightening thought.

You frighten easily, methinks... what if what if what if... ? Spoken like a true Whuffo.

You know, what's most comical about all the whining is that the best way to get out of any spin is to go into a delta position -- you know, the same position in which a wingsuit configures the body.

And really, wingsuit tandem is going to be by definition and equipment imperatives a fairly limited-market-segment offering. Bowling balls and beanpoles need not apply because what school is going to have suits that fit shapes outside the bell curve?

It is truly amazing to see people with profiles claimiing thousands of jumps going on and on like sanctimonious whuffos risk avoiders. Jeez, grow a pair, would y'all? Yer emBARrassing me.

bump to get back to the original thread subject -- and a revisitiation of the comment that caused such a kerfuffle:

"You know, what's most comical about all the whining is that the best way to get out of any spin is to go into a delta position -- you know, the same position in which a wingsuit configures the body."

Little did I know the magnitude of the kerfuffle this would spark coming from people who are apparently unfamiliar with precisely what a "delta" position is -- an arched, belly-to-earth/relative wind body position with arms straight and swept back, and legs also straight a little more than shoulder-width apart.

The delta is, in fact, and throughout freefall parachuting history, the primary means by which someone in a flat spin, or experiencing any loss of heading control, could regain control.

I said this as a general statement, not a wingsuit-specific statement, and I am more than willing to be corrected if for some magical reason the laws of physics suddenly do not apply to "modern" wingsuits -- a term which I was remiss in forgetting to have DWE define for me as he understands the term.

What I find most intriguing about the ensuing kerfuffle, however, was that none of us involved, including me, bothered to notice the most fundamental missing element which renders DWE's wingsuit god pronouncement utterly moot:

No one to my knowledge has yet done a single induced or accidental flat spin WITH a wingsuited tandem passenger attached, so literally no one knows whether my premise is solid or flawed because the momentum dynamics of such a configuration are totally unknown.

Ergo, the moderator who was so quick to denounce me as clueless actually has no idea what he's talking about, his wingsuit god pronouncements notwithstanding.

Moreover, he has no apparent inclination to learn, either, as he tripped all over his tail feathers backpedaling away from his "offer" to let me ride his back while he created an induced spin -- a wingsuit configuration jump he confessed to having never tried, but which is a least slightly more like a wingsuit tandem jump (you know, the subject of this thread) than any challenge to me to use a complete set of borrowed gear and a borrowed wingsuit of his choice so that he might prove me wrong about something which is only peripherally related to the subject at hand: whether tandem wingsuiting is a good idea or not.

And I think it may be: As I said way back when, "wingsuit tandem is going to be by definition and equipment imperatives a fairly limited-market-segment offering." both in terms of the limited number of tandem pilots who can do them, and the limited number of customers who can participate.

But lots of subsets of sport parachuting fall within that description, and you never know if the next bright idea will in fact be a bright idea or a non-starter. As I also mentioned previously, students jumping squares was a heretical idea that was denounced in exactly the same terms and with the same sanctimoniousness seen by the naysayers on this thread.

And they may be right, but we won't know until someone investigates it further.

Finally, I also want to revisit what Dave Lepka said about this subject, because I think it's the most cogent, succinct and to-the-point post on this entire thread:

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I wrote:

a) The "modern wingsuit" position is in FACT a DELTA position... you know, legs spread approx. shoulder-width apart, arms straight and swept back at 30-45 degrees from your body, and

b) The best way to get out of any flat spin situation, wearing a wingsuit or not, is to assume a delta position

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Dave replied:

Let's say that the above are correct, the problem is that the delta is not the only position a passenger can assume in a wingsuit, it's just one of them.

Consider the myriad of other positions a passenger could assume, the fact that the suit will probably increase the student's authority over stability, and the subtraction of the stability the drouge provides, and you can see that there are too many 'what if's' to introduce tandem wingsuiting to the general public.

There may be solutions to the problems a wingsuit could introduce, and those solutions may be good enough to allow the general public to participate, but until those solutions are formulated and tested, you can't let the gen. pop. get involved in wingsuit jumps of any kind.

END LEPKA POST

This also ends my participation in this thread, at least until DWE and I do our little spinfest sometime in the reasonably near future.

Thanks to everyone for the conversation, the jousting, and the information.

SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."

[bart 0]

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There is a great quote for this......

"Never argue with an idiot. He'll drag you down to his level, and beat you with experience".

I think I've said everything I need to.

So what your saying is I should never have argued with you obelixtim... I agree!!, in fact its probably the most intelligent comment you have made about yourself... well done dude.

My whole perpose was just to let everyone know the complete facts which I think I did. I really dont care what conclusion you or anyone else draws out of this, I made mine!! Opinions are just opinions, I'll never begrudge someone from having a different one to mine, It's what makes the world go round!!!

[bigbearfng 9]

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You're on for one jump on my dime in a suit of my choosing, with an induced spin, exactly as originally offered and thus declined on your part.
Can't WAIT to see you use a "delta" to get out of a spin

so you've withdrawn THIS offer?

"Tell ya what...you can ride my back like a pony, that'll be close to the unicorns Labrys wants. Try to hang on during a flat spin. Would be a new experience for me, too. Never done an intentional with someone on my back before. Might be kinda fun in a butterfly/pony way."

That was never an "offer," Robin. Twas a joke that many folks in the wingsuit community understood.
S'ok. I understand why you won't/can't get down on the offer I made. No shame in being afraid of a flatspin. Most intelligent people are.

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Yes, DWE, it WAS an offer, in exactly the way the first one was: you proposed it in writing on this thread -- and now you're not only withdrawing it (too rich for your blood, I guess), you're tripping over your tail feathers trying to pretend you didn't make it. (Gee, what a surprise).

As for your original offer that also may or may not be an "offer:"

I accept -- even though many folks in the wingsuit community understand THAT offer to be the real joke because of your reckless disregard for my lack of currency in your pursuit of proving me wrong (I mean, excuse me for bringing up an inconvenient truth, but wasn't this whole thread about a wingsuit god who recklessly endangered someone who was essentially clueless in order to show everyone how cool he was?).

But while you approach this recklessly, I don't, which is why I'm still jumping after 38 years, and why you won't be.

So you'll have to wait while I get wingsuit-current again before I come over and we sort out what's what. I'm sure it'll be good video if you can keep up with me.

So, thanks for your generous offer. It'll be fun.

Thanks even more for the nudge -- just the motivation I needed to start spending more time in the sky again.

See you soon -- unless, of course, by accepting this offer, it magically becomes a joke too.

I'm just a newb compared to the rest of you in here....
But I've done enough wingsuit jumps and had my silly ass in more than a few flat spins so your remarks implying that you seriously think his offer was anything more than a joke-well I'm afraid you shot down your credibility with that one without even realizing it.......(first real spin scared the livin shit outta me and made my ass dizzy!!!)

And I'd really like to know what the tandem manufacturer's have to say about it?
Wouldn't they pretty much have the final say????

[obelixtim 100]

Took you a while to reply to that particular post Bart....

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So what your saying is I should never have argued with you obelixtim... I agree!!,

Now where did I say that?. Nothing better than a good argument. But good to see you catching on!!.

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My whole perpose was just to let everyone know the complete facts which I think I did. I really dont care what conclusion you or anyone else draws out of this, I made mine!! Opinions are just opinions, I'll never begrudge someone from having a different one to mine, It's what makes the world go round!!! Wink

Yeah but one or two of your facts weren't exactly accurate, were they?. And your opinion, while valid for you, didn't seem to convince a few of the doubters on here to change their POV. You seemed to be digging a bit of a hole for yourself, thats all.

We weren't attacking Australia here, which your defensive reaction seemed to suggest. We questioned the wisdom of this particular event, and the wisdom of the TM involved. Knowing the guy a lot better than you gave me good reason to comment.

The gung ho attitude is fine in its place, but putting another person at risk is most definitely not. And that was the concept you seemed to have difficulty grasping.

Anyway, as you correctly point out, its good to have differences of opinion, because in the case of skydiving in particular, its what has caused the sport to continue to evolve...All ideas are valid, but some turn out good, some not so good.

There might be a place for tandem wingsuiting in the future, but I don't think this particular episode was handled very cleverly.

Anyway, cheers, let us know the result of the DOS's investigation.

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[fasted3 0]

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No one to my knowledge has yet done a single induced or accidental flat spin WITH a wingsuited tandem passenger attached, so literally no one knows whether my premise is solid or flawed because the momentum dynamics of such a configuration are totally unknown.

From what I understand, tandem flat spins are pretty dangerous without a wingsuit. I would like to hear some TI's thoughts about this. Especially those with WS experience. I've flown a WS quite a bit, (without getting particularly good at it,) but from what I've experienced with WS rodeos, it would be darn hard to recover with someone attached. For anybody, and quite likely impossible for me. This is the reason I think it's really risky to do WS tandems. It's just a matter of time until someone does get into a spin, and that's when it will get ugly. If a couple of stout hearted individuals did decide to try this, I wish them well, and get video.

I will concede DSE's point that it would be a mistake to condone this in the US because of possible FAA involvement, so any experiments should be done elsewhere.

But what do I know?

[bart 0]

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Took you a while to reply to that particular post Bart....

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So what your saying is I should never have argued with you obelixtim... I agree!!,

Now where did I say that?. Nothing better than a good argument. But good to see you catching on!!.

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My whole perpose was just to let everyone know the complete facts which I think I did. I really dont care what conclusion you or anyone else draws out of this, I made mine!! Opinions are just opinions, I'll never begrudge someone from having a different one to mine, It's what makes the world go round!!! Wink

Yeah but one or two of your facts weren't exactly accurate, were they?. And your opinion, while valid for you, didn't seem to convince a few of the doubters on here to change their POV. You seemed to be digging a bit of a hole for yourself, thats all.

We weren't attacking Australia here, which your defensive reaction seemed to suggest. We questioned the wisdom of this particular event, and the wisdom of the TM involved. Knowing the guy a lot better than you gave me good reason to comment.

The gung ho attitude is fine in its place, but putting another person at risk is most definitely not. And that was the concept you seemed to have difficulty grasping.

Anyway, as you correctly point out, its good to have differences of opinion, because in the case of skydiving in particular, its what has caused the sport to continue to evolve...All ideas are valid, but some turn out good, some not so good.

There might be a place for tandem wingsuiting in the future, but I don't think this particular episode was handled very cleverly.

Anyway, cheers, let us know the result of the DOS's investigation.

The Last post was just really a bit of fun, sorry for the late reply just been a bit busy, its nice to be actually working with all this rain and shit weather we have been having. This whole thread has caused some amazing conversation both passionate and in my opinion emotional. While passionate is good, the emotional doesn't add to the wieght of any arguement!!

I dont believe I dug any whole for myself, my initial opinions remain the same and as I said I never wanted to convince anyone. I just wanted everyone to know the facts first rather than guessing and there was alot of that going on. As I said opinions are opinions all are valid. I'm use to mine not being accepted by the majority, ha ha ha

I was only incorrect with one thing. Approval was gained from the Director of instructors not the director of safety which I appologised for. And corrected when pointed out. Everything else I have checked from more than one source. I might be a little 'out there' but not silly, I hope

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

Oddly, this is definitely not the first time this has been done. I am positive that Vladi Pesa has done it and I know for a fact that the late Chris Martin did it at the WFFC.

Chuck