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cpoxon

taking tandem students wingsuiting

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Considering all the circumstances like his experience and the experience of the tandem, mainly her 15 previous tandems, enough time in free fall if they were solo to qualify for an A licence down here!!



There is a big difference between 15 tandems and 15 AFF style jumps. You can believe what you want. She has been a PASSENGER for those 15 jumps. Not the same as a trained and qualified A license holder in any country. IF she is ready for an A. Well just give her a rig and throw her out of the plane. She will be fine. I mean...she did do 15 tandems right. [:/]

I never intended to compare 15 tandems with solo training as far as free fall skills. The fact is that the girl is an experienced passenger and can follow direction. As from the photos she did just that. Brett made an interesting point about this to me, Ive already written it twice I'm sure you can find it.

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And again your forgeting one thing, nothing went wrong!!



Give it time. If he keeps this up. He will kill someone. I love you Aussies. I really do. Great guys and gals. But this dude is a turd.


This really was a one off. Would they do it again under similar circumstances, maybe, maybe not who knows. But to lable someone a Turd without knowing them to me is a little stupid. Maybe you actually know the guy and think hes a turd but really man thats a bit much.

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It seems you have a very negative slant on whatever brett may do. Before you make some of these comments I believe it would be fair to get some more facts.



I think thats what we've been asking for....facts.

Can you provide some, or are you just going to keep up the repetative hyperbole about how good Brett is, and how no one seems (in your opinion anyway) to have the right to question the wisdom of this jump.

Firstly, was this done as a test jump, a stunt, or for some other reason, because frankly its hard to see any point in it apart from a "lets make a name for myself by doing this first" desire for glory.

What was discussed and postulated prior to the jump vis a vis potential problems and solutions, actions to be taken......i.e, a list of "what ifs". And "what else"?....

I have a number of questions I would have posed prior to such a jump, and I'd be very interested to see Bretts pre jump planning to see if he's considered some of the things I have thought of.

Secondly, what is the justification for exposing another individual (who really was playing the part of a lab rat) to the unknown?. Hell, we already know that going to tandem terminal for example, is not a wise thing to do.

It would also be nice to see some post jump comments and analysis which any good test jumper should be able to provide. What did he learn that everyone can benefit from?. Do's and don'ts, etc etc....

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But it seems you have already made up your mind.



True, I have......like others, "what was the point of this jump" sprang to mind. Its difficult to come up with one. Test jumps, stunts, and tandems for that matter, are not just another jump.

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Whatever bad blood is there between you too



None that I'm aware of.

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you need to look at every event without predudice which doesnt seem to be happening here. You were not there when the jump was decided upon and approved by the director of safety.



The "prejudice" comes from knowing just a little bit about potential negative outcomes when conducting a test or stunt jump, of any sort.

Also "prejudice" comes here from him exposing another individual to the unknown, made worse by the fact that that individual had VERY limited experience.

The "prejudice" also comes from experience picking up the pieces when things go wrong...

Why didn't the director of safety volunteer to play the guinea pig role if he thought it was such a good idea.

Nothing could have gone wrong could it?.

Your D o S's approval for this jump seems to be at variance with the majority of opinion of people on this board, many who have long experience and wisdom of all things skydiving, including the testing and development of safe systems and methods.

In fact, in a round table discussion with your D o S, I suspect that this jump, as it eventuated, would have been vetoed.

But......they got away with it....so its all good....isn't it?.

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You should be proud of your students accomplishments.



As I am, and have been many times over, with many of them. I'm not convinced about this one though.....
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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Well the gear they were using was not modified for the jump,



The gear itself doesn't have to be modified for it to be considered a test jump, in this case it was the jump that was modified, and that most certainly makes it a test jump.

The drouge/bridle system was not designed for wingsuiting. The handles, their placement, and direction of pull were not designed with for wingsuiting, and the concept of strapping two jumpers together was not disgned with for wingsuiting. The fact that you, or this TI can't seem to grasp that is the real problem. Just because it's 'kind of' like a skydiving rig, and the jump was 'kind of' like a solo wingsuit jump does not make it OK.

It's new, unique, and UNTESTED.

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Brett made an interesting point that as a passenger and an experienced one, the girl did exactly what was asked of her and no more. Would it have been easier or more difficult to have an experienced wingsuiter on the front trying to fly the pair rather than just passively adopting the position she was asked to do. Which if you look at the photos was exactly what she did.



He was lucky that she did, and lucky that things went the wat he thought they would go. What would have happened if things didn't go the way he thought? What ability did that passenger have to adapt to an unknown, unusual circumstance? The answer is none.

You see it all the time in students. They get an idea in their head, and stick to it no matter what happens. Sometimes they confuse 'legs out' with 'legs in' and they plant their feet on their ass for the entire jump. They are doing what (they thought) they were told, and sticking to it for the entire jump, but since they don't know how to evaluate the situation, and apply corrective actions, they do it wrong for the entire jump.

You or I would notice that we were head high and back sliding, then we would simply put our legs out to counter that. If the instruction given to the student turned out to be incorrect, that's all you would have gotten out of her for the entire jump.

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Sorry to burst that bubble. Brett is as I can tell is a happily married dude with 3 kids.



Somebody mentioned that earlier, and I take that to be the truth. I have no information that there was anything going on between the two of them, I only asked becasue it has happened before.

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*** I think thats what we've been asking for....facts.

Can you provide some, or are you just going to keep up the repetative hyperbole about how good Brett is, and how no one seems (in your opinion anyway) to have the right to question the wisdom of this jump.***

There is no hyperbole about brett, aside from the initial experience saying that if anyone could do it I believe he can... thats it. I think your just showing your dislike for him now.

The Facts are all out here atleast I can see them;

1.The instructor was an experienced TM and wingsuit pilot.

2.The passenger while not a skydiver was an experienced tandem passenger with 15 previous tandems. While not making her a, licenced skydiver... surely not worthless either.

3.The passenger was aware of the risks. Her partner is an experienced instructor and BMI instructor. While this may not seem like a big deal, the fact is she was not some jane off the street going to do a "tandem wingsuit". No one here would seriously advocate commercial tandem wingsuiting its not what this is about. And also it shows she does know something about the sport.

4.She was appropriately trained and briefed for the jump.

5. The jump was approved by the director of safety.

Well thats about it for me, sorry if it doesnt tick all ya boxes, maybe im the only one... but I can live with that.

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There have been a few links in this thread of previous tandem wingsuit jumps, but they were prior jumps with experienced jumpers, not a tandem student as in the actual jump that inspired this thread.

This thread contains a link to a video that contains a few seconds of the jump. About 30 seconds in. There's a fair bit of carnage in the video and the wingsuit tandem part is brief/heavily edited. Makes me wonder what isn't being shown. Then again, I don't think the editors are skydivers.
Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live

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Well the gear they were using was not modified for the jump



Not even the wingsuits?



The wingsuits change the application but not really the function. Can you actually think of something relating to the gear, that applies to the tandem that cant apply to a single wingsuiter. Please let us all know. Remember its a sigma.

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Well the gear they were using was not modified for the jump



Not even the wingsuits?



The wingsuits change the application but not really the function. Can you actually think of something relating to the gear, that applies to the tandem that cant apply to a single wingsuiter. Please let us all know. Remember its a sigma.



I wad talking about the harness and attachment. Surely the wingsuits are modified to accommodate this?
Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live

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Damn it feels good to be a gangsta! That is an awesome picture. Hey, at least they are already getting out last, and no more getting hosed on a long spot. Should make for an interesting time videoing them though.

As for a good idea? I've shot a lot of tandem video and it would not take long to have this turn to shit in a hurry when the student does not do their job.

Cya!

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Bart, your information is correct except for one point.
The jump was definately conducted without the fore-knowlege or approval of the APF Director Safety.
The Director Safety has since requested and received a full report and is digesting the information contained within to determine future APF policy.

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Bart, your information is correct except for one point.
The jump was definately conducted without the fore-knowlege or approval of the APF Director Safety.
The Director Safety has since requested and received a full report and is digesting the information contained within to determine future APF policy.



Ah....the APF D o S is obviously upset at not being invited to go on the front, thus missing out on a chance for glory.....
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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Probably about the same time tandem rig manufacturers stop making rigs.
[:/]



That just means more orders for Abbie and Tree.

LOL

Wingsuit tandems are a great idea as long at the TI is experienced on wingsuits. They will force a re-think of tandem jumping because the drogue system on tandems in inherently dangerous because it makes the whole malfunction event and decision tree so much more complex.

Most peeps forget that Booth's original tandem rigs didn't have drogues... if I recall correctly, it was Ted Strong who introduced the drogue to slow down the deployment speed because HIS parachutes were blowing up.

Then someone figured out that you could film a drogue-fall tandem and thus was born a cool carnival ride.

After a spate of tandem fatalities involving very experienced tandem masters a decade or so ago, I did a study and found no correlation between TI experience and fatality rate -- ergo, it doesn't matter how good you are, the complexity of the system can still overwhelm you.

But when I suggested to one tandem manufacturer that getting rid of the drogue was the answer -- especially given that freeflying allowed drogue-less tandem photography, he laughed and said: "If I got rid of the drogue, half my tandem masters couldn't get stable."

So we persist in keeping the drogue around despite its obvious and documented dangers because there aren't enough TIs capable enough to do tandems without one -- and then talk smack about a system that not only eliminates the greatest cause of tandem fatalities -- drogue-related screwups -- it gives the TI greater control over his customer.

I mean D'OH! when the customer has on a wingsuit it literally straitjackets them into a reasonably aerodynamic and symmetrical body position -- and especially reduces their ability to disrupt the TI with their arms.

And D'OH! a wingsuit also eliminates the chance that the customer will fall out of an improperly adjusted tandem harness.

Yes, wingsuit tandem requires a higher-order skillset on the part of the TI, who must now include wingsuit proficiency along with general freefall and canopy handling proficiency, but those who have the requisite skillset will in fact be able to provide their customers with a demonstably safer and aesthetically better experience.

So get used to it -- and quit WHINING.

B|
SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."

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or to add a bit, how exactly would a ti deal with a problem? I for one have no idea what kind of spin could be created with that configuration or more importantly how the hell to get out of it. It is nothing less than experimental and anyone who does it should be considered a test dummy.

and I am all for progress, but safety should at least be part of the equation, not to mention liability.



LMFAO

If I recall correctly, tandem was for its first 20 years or so an officially certified EXPERIMENTAL ACTIVITY so for those 20 or so years, everyone was, in fact, a test dummy, sooooo..... uh... what exactly is yer point, dude?

B|.
SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."

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Reward to student: They get to do a skydive where they think they're really flying (with a G/R of more than 1:1, maybe they are, sorta). They get to wear wings and feel like "Batman."
I don't think anyone would have a clue about the difference between drogue-assisted and wingsuit freefall.

Risk to student; hell...I just don't feel like typing all that. This TI, who is supposed to be a very experienced wingsuit pilot, seems to be struggling to keep alignment.
What if the student is much taller? Sidespin recovery? Flatspin recovery?
I don't think it is as dangerous as people make it out to be if preserved in a bubble, but as a general practice and not a stunt? It's a frightening thought.



You frighten easily, methinks... what if what if what if... ? Spoken like a true Whuffo.

You know, what's most comical about all the whining is that the best way to get out of any spin is to go into a delta position -- you know, the same position in which a wingsuit configures the body.

And really, wingsuit tandem is going to be by definition and equipment imperatives a fairly limited-market-segment offering. Bowling balls and beanpoles need not apply because what school is going to have suits that fit shapes outside the bell curve?

It is truly amazing to see people with profiles claimiing thousands of jumps going on and on like sanctimonious whuffos risk avoiders. Jeez, grow a pair, would y'all? Yer emBARrassing me.

B|
SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."

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So we have tandem BASE and wingsuit tandems. How long until we have wingsuit BASE tandems?



for the record it was ted strong that did the first tandem BASE jump


And for the record, he did it with me.

Bridge Day 1984.

B|
SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."

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Keep tandems as a "training tool" (amusement park ride) and we'll keep the government out of our sandbox, but it would be a difficult argument to suggest that tandem wingsuiting is a training tool when industry practices demand 200 jumps before putting on a wingsuit.



LOL

Now you're channeling what USPA said to Roger Nelson when the BOD tried to force him to stop putting students on SQUARE PARACHUTES:

"...it would be a difficult argument to suggest that square parachutes for students is a training tool when industry practices demand 100 jumps before jumping a square."

I mean, can you IMAGINE putting STUDENTS on SQUARES when they have NO IDEA OF THE RISK INVOLVED? What kind of reckless, stupid egomaniac would put students in DANGER like that? OMG, SUE that bastard for everything he's worth!!!

LMFAO at you pedantic, pontificating rubes.

B|
SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."

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You often condescend to people for not knowing what they're talking about....

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the best way to get out of any spin is to go into a delta position -- you know, the same position in which a wingsuit configures the body.



How many spin experiences do you have in a modern wingsuit?
You haven't got a friggin' clue.

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You often condescend to people for not knowing what they're talking about....

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the best way to get out of any spin is to go into a delta position -- you know, the same position in which a wingsuit configures the body.



How many spin experiences do you have in a modern wingsuit?
You haven't got a friggin' clue.


Of course I don't... I actually know how to FLY a wingsuit, not flail around in a spin multiple times.

But thanks for enlightening me on the root cause of your resistance to the concept of wingsuit tandem. If I had the "many spin experiences in a modern wingsuit" that you apparently have, it would be a, well, frightening thought.

B|

P.S. I'll be back next week to catch up on all the fun. In the meantime, check out this!

LOL
SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."

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If I had the "many spin experiences in a modern wingsuit" that you apparently have, it would be a, well, frightening thought.



Stick to what you know, Robin.
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Jeez, grow a pair, would y'all? Yer emBARrassing me.


You should be embarrassed on this one, you don't know Jack.

Intentional flatspins are part of the safety-knowledge-growth process. Kinda like jumping a wingsuit into water. One guy thought he knew the answer to that one, too.
Untested theories are dangerous things, such as your theory of getting out of a flat spin in a wingsuit. B|

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