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cpoxon

taking tandem students wingsuiting

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The fact is and no one seems to want to admit it but the success was a testement to the skill and experience of the instructor involved.



Ahh, the good old "too good to go in" argument.

Tell it to Patrick DeGuarydon, Tom Piras, Rob Harris and Adrian Nicholas amongst others.

It doesn't matter how great a guy this tandem instructor is, he (and you) are making the time tested mistake of mistaking luck for experience. He may be good at what he does, but he's got no common sense at all.

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I know the man and have spent years working with him. Not only a highly skilled and experienced tandem master AFF instructor and wingsuit flyer and swooper, but an excellent rigger as well.



Apart from his mad skills, you don't really know him well, do you?.


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The fact is and no one seems to want to admit it but the success was a testement to the skill and experience of the instructor involved.



Maybe he got a bit lucky as well.

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It really is unfair to accuse someone of being reckless when you dont really know the circumstances or the thought that went into it.



I can imagine very clearly the thought that went into this......very little. Its typically his M.O.

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What does this mean, if something is beyond you you see it as unsafe. It doesnt mean its beyond someone else. Its really simple.



Cunningly put, but flawed as a valid argument. The people arguing on here have almost certainly been there, done that, with experience in multiple skydiving disciplines. This gives them the ability to make and give valid opinions and judgements. Brett isn't an experienced tandem wingsuit flyer either, and he hasn't yet proved anything, certainly not that he can cope with EVERY situation that might arise in this instance.

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I just think its time you gave the guy a break. His ego isnt that big if it was he'd be on here giving his opinion like the rest of us!!!



Bretts ego is only matched by his mouth, and if he isn't on here writing about it, it'll only be because he's too busy out there talking about it.
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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I just think its time you gave the guy a break. His ego isnt that big if it was he'd be on here giving his opinion like the rest of us!!!

Bretts ego is only matched by his mouth, and if he isn't on here writing about it, it'll only be because he's too busy out there talking about it.



Or he isnt on here talking about it...because he knows that he will be questioned about things that he has no answer for.
Dom


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your assumption that this is not a 'look at me' stunt is as valid as my argument that it is

Thanks. I agree.
Where do I paint the guy as a super instructor? I only say live and let live. You seem to lack reading comprehension.


+1
Look out for the freefly team, Smelly Peppers. Once we get a couple years more experience we will be a force to be reckoned with in the near future! BLUES!

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And yes, if it were legal, as this jump was



How was this jump legal?

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I was talking about "understanding" the risks. You are talking about skill level.



Im talking about both. Everyone understands that you can die skydiving. That is not true understanding though..



I agree, I don't think it's true understanding. Honestly, I don't think most people "get it" till they see someone badly hurt / mangled / killed.

I have seen 2 dead skydivers and dealt with the fatality of another and have seen many more ambulance calls than I would have wanted to. The reality of things sets in after that kind of stuff.

That's when you start really having a true understanding of what can happen to you, when the guy with 2000 jumps or the kid with 100 gets carted away for doing something stupid.
~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

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In Reply To
A fucking monkey can throw a drogue.
-------------

IMHO it would be easier to convince a human being to make such high risc jump than a monkey. So far about human "intelligence".



Even if a monkey can throw a drogue I picture the beast as being way too smart to make drogue-throwing his primary occupation or source of livelihood.

Now as to the wisdom of dressing your newly met friends in front in a wingsuit while wearing one yourself also for the occasion of their first skydive?

Even a monkey wouldn't be that stupid I would think but you got to admire the balls it takes to do it anyway - can't help myself there...

And if your stainless steel balls are big enough, you'll always have a solid counterweight, should you end up on your back right @ the moment you want to throw the drogue.

Now, let's all hope that being on your back with your drogue halfway out of its pocket and an overdressed passenger on steroids up front is not going to have a shrinking effect on the genitals..
:PB|:$

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

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I agree, I don't think it's true understanding. Honestly, I don't think most people "get it" till they see someone badly hurt / mangled / killed.

I have seen 2 dead skydivers and dealt with the fatality of another and have seen many more ambulance calls than I would have wanted to. The reality of things sets in after that kind of stuff.



The newbies and "you old farts crew" don't seem to understand this trauma that many of us "oldies" have dealt with over our long careers....their turn will come...

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That's when you start really having a true understanding of what can happen to you, when the guy with 2000 jumps or the kid with 100 gets carted away for doing something stupid.



I've seen them carted away even when they've done everything correctly......the reaper takes no prisioners.
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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sounds to me like you have an old pesonal dislike for the tm in question here. Is that because you were never quite as good as him, or was it because he was able to acheive what you never could??????



Brett can do things I can't, like many of my ex students. There are many things I can do that he can't.

I have no problem with that. Or with Brett. I know him, and I know how he does things.....his enthusiasm often outweighs his good judgement. He's always been like that.
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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sounds to me like you have an old pesonal dislike for the tm in question here. Is that because you were never quite as good as him, or was it because he was able to acheive what you never could??????



Why does it seem that all of his supporters want to chime in with what this guy can do that (they think) others can't.

Your all just proving the point that this TI has EGO issues. He thinks he is the best and so he must be bullet proof.

I have been in this sport for a long time and have met and been lucky enough to call some of the (truly) best skydivers in the word my friends. None of them would ever put a student in unnecessary risk like your Sky God Brett seems to be willing to do.
Dom


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Its seems you may have hit the nail on the head. In my opinion. And before someone chimes in and tells me that I havent been around or seen the shit go bad, think again!! I have!!

We are all human and there is risk in everything we do. As we become more profficient in different forms of the sport, we as a group will always expand the envelope. Whether that be inventing new disiplines or combining others. Whether in be new regular activities, or performing one offs like this one.

Theres no point in any of us quoting our experience or how many jumps we have its all in the left hand column. The fact is most people posting have alot of time in the sport, so do I.

No matter what anyone posts I'll stick to my origional post. And yes bro I think I do know brett, alot more than you think and maybe alittle better than you? The thing is no matter what you write niether of us will be able to prove that one either way. It does however seem to be some personal dislike in your statement.

I'll say it again...It didnt go wrong in fact it went very well. Thats one thing no matter what anyone writes will ever change. Whether everyone likes it or not!! You can claim it was luck all you want, I dont believe that myself. And no matter what I say I know I will not convince the hard liners in here, nor will any amount of there crying convince me.

Remember there is no fact in here just opinions and remember opinions are just like assholes... everyone has one!!;)

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Ahh, the good old "too good to go in" argument.

No Dude thats not what I'm saying at all. Patrick had sewn his lines of his main to his container, Piras was knocked unconsious, and yes sure there was the famous dont need to turn the cypress on thing, Rob Harris while I'm not sure of the exact details as there hard to come by, was filming a stunt where they did some mods on the gear. I really dont think this one comes into those categories. Yes Yes but hes complacent and not thinking thats what you'll say, irresponsible, bla bla, sorry mate don't see it in this case and dont think its a good comparison. And nobodys above going in at the wrong moment its something everyone is capable of. Perhaps and I do say perhaps not defineatly by maintaining this thought, the jump went well, because believe it or not it actually did, fancy that!!. The trouble with most of the statements in here they center around the attitude of the person doing the jump and nobody but him can say really what that was. Me included!! As I said just dont think this qualifies but your entitled to believe whatever you wish. But thats not what I said

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Why does it seem that all of his supporters want to chime in with what this guy can do that (they think) others can't.

Your all just proving the point that this TI has EGO issues. He thinks he is the best and so he must be bullet proof.

***I have been in this sport for a long time and have met and been lucky enough to call some of the (truly) best skydivers in the word my friends. None of them would ever put a student in unnecessary risk like your Sky God Brett seems to be willing to do.

Again thats not what Im saying at all. Its not about Brett really although I believe hes capable of the jump. Considering all the circumstances like his experience and the experience of the tandem, mainly her 15 previous tandems, enough time in free fall if they were solo to qualify for an A licence down here!! bla bla bla. And Im quite sure in fact positive that there are others out there that are capable of doing it if fact probably capable of doing things that might make me gasp with anger. ha ha ha . The thing is I just find it funny those that know nothing about the person or the jump like yourself want to hang him the most.

And again your forgeting one thing, nothing went wrong!! and you are within your rights to believe what ever you like mate. But I dont think they got lucky. If you want to you can believe that thats your choice. In all truth I think you need to cheer up abit mate!!:)

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The thing is I just find it funny those that know nothing about the person or the jump like yourself want to hang him the most.



I think that most people on here just think it was a dumb idea to take an inexperienced person on the jump. As did I. What was the point of that?.

This could clearly be classified as a test jump. And test jumps are NOT the place for turkeys. You wouldn't put a glider pilot in a F16.

I've known Brett since his father brought him to the DZ as a toddler. I trained him for his first jump and guided him throughout his jump career till he left NZ.

I've seen many of his screw ups, (and yes, he's made a few) as have many others...and they have one common factor running through them.....a lack of careful forethought of ALL the possible outcomes. He's been damn lucky he's got away with all that he has, so far......

He also has a tendency to blame others if things don't go right.....I've already had several PM's from people I don't know who have experienced this reaction from him, proving that no, he hasn't changed......

Don't try to tell me, of all people that Brett did this for the benefit of anyone but himself....

And instead of putting up such a frenzied defence of his actions, why not tell him that this thread exists, and invite him to come online and explain to us all exactly his motivation and planning for this jump, because many of us can't really see the point of it.

If he just wanted to try something new, why didn't he take Jonathon King on the front.....instead of some 16 jump sucker.....

And yes, JK is one of my ex students as well....at least he would understand wtf is going on if things turned ugly.
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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Rob Harris while I'm not sure of the exact details as there hard to come by, was filming a stunt where they did some mods on the gear.



By my measure, a wingsuit tandem is also a stunt jump made with untested gear. No difference there.

It might not be so bad if all involved were willing to admit that it was nothing more than that. Not a 'safe' wingsuit jump with a paying customer, but a stunt with a passenger who had made a large number of tandems. The fact is that you simply cannot do a wingsuit tandem jump with the same level of safety you can provide on a standard tandem jump, even with an experienced wingsuiter as the passenger. The testing simply has not been done, and the risks are not known.

I supposed this is as good a time as any to ask, but what was the relationship between the TI and the passenger? Guys have done dumber things to get laid, or continue getting laid, and seeing as the passenger was a felmale, it seems like a reasonable question.

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Considering all the circumstances like his experience and the experience of the tandem, mainly her 15 previous tandems, enough time in free fall if they were solo to qualify for an A licence down here!!



There is a big difference between 15 tandems and 15 AFF style jumps. You can believe what you want. She has been a PASSENGER for those 15 jumps. Not the same as a trained and qualified A license holder in any country. IF she is ready for an A. Well just give her a rig and throw her out of the plane. She will be fine. I mean...she did do 15 tandems right. [:/]

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And again your forgeting one thing, nothing went wrong!!



Give it time. If he keeps this up. He will kill someone. I love you Aussies. I really do. Great guys and gals. But this dude is a turd.
Dom


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I supposed this is as good a time as any to ask, but what was the relationship between the TI and the passenger? Guys have done dumber things to get laid, or continue getting laid, and seeing as the passenger was a felmale, it seems like a reasonable question.



I doubt very much that this would have been a factor unless it was his wife. Brett would be highly motivated to try this anyway, without any extra minge benefits on offer....

And pertaining to the rider....how many people do 16 tandems as a passenger anyway??, unless going on the front for rating purposes....why hasn't she done some real skydiving??. Not good /confident enough??...

Suggests to me her awareness of the potential outcomes of this jump was not that high.
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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By my measure, a wingsuit tandem is also a stunt jump made with untested gear. No difference there.


Well the gear they were using was not modified for the jump, its true its testing in its application but not in its function. And considering people wingsuit with standard skydiving equiptment, maybe longer bridles and pilot chutes, nothing anywhere near the length or size of a drouge. Then really its not so untested



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It might not be so bad if all involved were willing to admit that it was nothing more than that. Not a 'safe' wingsuit jump with a paying customer, but a stunt with a passenger who had made a large number of tandems. The fact is that you simply cannot do a wingsuit tandem jump with the same level of safety you can provide on a standard tandem jump, even with an experienced wingsuiter as the passenger. The testing simply has not been done, and the risks are not known.



Which will never be know unless someone does the jump? The fact is provided that everyone knows and appriciates the risk then I dont see the problem. The jump was also cleared by the director of safety in Australia before they did the descent.
Brett made an interesting point that as a passenger and an experienced one, the girl did exactly what was asked of her and no more. Would it have been easier or more difficult to have an experienced wingsuiter on the front trying to fly the pair rather than just passively adopting the position she was asked to do. Which if you look at the photos was exactly what she did.



***I supposed this is as good a time as any to ask, but what was the relationship between the TI and the passenger? Guys have done dumber things to get laid, or continue getting laid, and seeing as the passenger was a felmale, it seems like a reasonable question.



Sorry to burst that bubble. Brett is as I can tell is a happily married dude with 3 kids. The passenger while female is actually the partner of a BMI instructor who was at a boogie and on the jump himself. Whilst not a skydiver she has been around the sport for some time and done alot of tandems. So no motives in that area.

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And pertaining to the rider....how many people do 16 tandems as a passenger anyway??, unless going on the front for rating purposes....why hasn't she done some real skydiving??. Not good /confident enough??...

I really dont think this is nessecarilly fair. Brett tells me you run the best first jump course that hes seen. Im sure you have trained alot of students. I know I havent trained as many as you but I have a real passion for AFF. mostly overseas as we seem to be full up on tandems these days, a fact I find really sad. The one thing I have come across and I would be suprised if you have not, is that sometimes skydiving is not for everyone. Even those with great potental, just sometimes dont complete the course. Whether fear or another reason. It is rare but it happens. To me that comment is extremely negative and prejudicial. If you look at the photos she looks to me like she is having a blast and doing a great job!! I wrote this in another reply but Brett made an interesting comment to me, that would the jump have been easier or more difficult with a experienced wingsuiter on the front trying to fly it rather than just passively adopting the position she was asked to do. Which she did and again did a great job.

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Suggests to me her awareness of the potential outcomes of this jump was not that high.

Her Boyfriend is a wingsuit instructor, while she doesnt jump she has been around the sport for some time and has the right people in her corner for information and support. So again I have to disagree. She actually asked alot of questions about the jump. Enough to impress those involved.

It seems you have a very negative slant on whatever brett may do. Before you make some of these comments I believe it would be fair to get some more facts. But it seems you have already made up your mind. Whatever bad blood is there between you too, you need to look at every event without predudice which doesnt seem to be happening here. You were not there when the jump was decided upon and approved by the director of safety. You should be proud of your students accomplishments.

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