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cpoxon

taking tandem students wingsuiting

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Your logic is retarded. If I carry your logic as extend it to the way tandems are currently done, we can do away with the waiver and videos. You know, the ones that explain the risks to the punters?


I see tact is your strong suit there JP.

I think you're missing the point. Skydivers constantly go on about all the training and experience we need to understand the risks of skydiving and now you're going to say that all we need is a shitty tandem video made like 400 years ago? The tandem video and waiver are both an exercise in risk mitigation on the part of the business and you know it. There's no way to explain what dangers and possibilities exist in skydiving in the space of a 30 minute video. All we can say is that your TI is a professional and has passed the best testing we can come up with - trust us.

My logic is quite simple (but apparently retarded) - if the TI is safe doing whatever, how is it different for the passenger?

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How is the T-I doing this activity SAFELY? How was the training conducted? Did they follow a wing suit manufacturer's course?

The Video and Waiver brings up the point you could die or be seriously hurt. The same video, if the Factory Produced one, shows one type of Tandem Parachute Instruction Jump in action. That type of jump is all that is endorsed by the Factory.

Using an experienced skydiver with wing suit experience, I see no issues, using a Student, no matter how many Tandem Jumps they where a part of, I see issues. The Student has not trained on how the wing suit can complicate the skydive, and a Tandem Instructional Jump is already a complicated skydive. The Student is not experienced enough to work out of any issues created on a complicated, by the Wing Suit, skydive.

Maybe in 10 years there will be a way to make this common place and happen safely.

Matt
An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

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if the TI is safe doing whatever, how is it different for the passenger?



Because the PAX does not know how to already wingsuit.... Yet they are wearing one.

Again, two exp adults are free to do any damn thing they want (Just like Patrick and Wendy doing the Tandem skysurf).
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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All we can say is that your TI is a professional and has passed the best testing we can come up with - trust us.



That's right, and the testing that was done was established by the best, most experienced jumpers around as well as the designer of the rig. Between them, they came up with a set of perameters that could allow a non-jumper to experience freefall with a very low level of training, and a very high level of safety.

What sort of testing, and who exactly administered the testing that proved that this TI could safely conduct a tandem wingsuit jump with a non-skydiver passenger?

The answer is nobody, because this cannot be done safely, plain and simple. There are MAJOR areas where safety is comprimised, and while it may have gone well for one or two, or even ten jumps, it will not last.

The TI, in donning a wingsuit, has severly limtied his ability to manage the skydive by reducing his mobility.

How well can he deal with a drouge that does not want to come out of the pouch while his arm is restriced by the suit?

How does he manage the students legs without being able to wrap his legs around theirs?

How does the instructor fly their body at all with the students wingsuit blanketing the airflow to theirs?

What is the recovery if the pair should enter a flat spin, the same type of spin that has trapped even highly experienced solo wingsuit pilots?

What type of control authority does the wingsuit give to the student?

What happens to the pair if the student assumes a less-than-optimal body position?

With the exception of the flat spin, the scenarios listed above are very real, and likely to happen at least once to a TI over the course of a weekend. A hard(er) or funky drouge pull, needing to wrap a students legs, needing to fly your body to coutner what the student is doing, etc are all common occurences in doing tandems with the general public, and look like they could create a serious issue if they occured on a wingsuit tandem.

This is nothing more than a stunt. There's no way that any real planning, testing, or investigation went into this. If it did, I want to see the video of two TI/wingsuit pilots doing an intentional flat spin, and then proving the tandem recovery method. If that happened, you can bet your ass somebody got it on video (probably two or three people) and I want to see it. If there's no video, then it didn't happen. If it didn't happen, this jump was just a stunt where the TI stuck his dick waaay out there, and was lucky it didn't get chopped off.

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Never heard of the stuff. What's it taste like? B|


:D

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That's right, and the testing that was done...


This is what I'm looking for.

I'm trying to understand beyond "that's stupid" what the experienced people are concerned about. Making an assumption as to the amount of prep or training that did or did not go into this jump is just speculation at this point.

I'm just trying to work out what the specific concerns are beyond people screaming that the sky is falling because I don't learn anything from that, I figured that out by myself.

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Making an assumption as to the amount of prep or training that did or did not go into this jump is just speculation at this point.



Maybe, and maybe not. Like I said, if they did the work needed to make this 'safe', it would have been on video, and it would have been sick, which means it would have been posted somewhere.

For example, once the tandem side-spin became a 'thing' that was happening, Bill Morrissey went up with another TI and figured out how side spins happen and how to get out of them. All of the jumps were filmed, and when they had it all figured out, he turned it into an 'instructional' video for teaching TIs about sidespins. This was in the days of VHS.

So without a list of Youtube videos showing all the work they did to test the 'what ifs' by actually doing it with experienced jumpers, I'm going to assume it wasn't done. If anything, it would be interesting to see two experienced wingsuit flyers doing tandems together, and what is or is not possible. You don't think that would have been internet worthy in itself?

If you don't hear about the test jumps, and the prep work leading up to something like this, it's probably because there wasn't any. All it would do is serve to validate the accomplishment even further, that someone put that much time and effort into doing it 'right', but as we can see here (or not see) there's nothing but a 'look at me' pic to show for it.

Beyond all of that, if you have ever done a tandem or flown a wingsuit, just think for a minute if you really see those two things going together. If you've never jumped a wingsuit, put one on and see how it feels. Put on a tandem rig and start feeling around. Hook up a friend in a tandem harness, and see if that makes the wingsuit feel like a better idea or worse.

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I don't have much to say because your posts speak for themselves. It's obvious to everyone you are a typical trailer park sky god who can barely skydive other than throw a drogue. And yet you shout down everybody on every single topic. IMO....you embody everything that right minded, normal, humble, educated people hate about skydiving. Thankfully there are not many of you left.



Now that was some funny shit. I dont know J.P. all that well at all nor do I agree with all his comments but the one Jump I made with him was enough to know better than this shit.


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I'm trying to understand beyond "that's stupid" what the experienced people are concerned about.



Another point: experienced skydivers have jumped out of airplanes wearing wingsuits, oblivious to the fact their leg straps were not around their legs. On a normal tandem I recheck all straps on my tandem students a few times: during gearup, while boarding, starting jump run... but I probably wouldn't be able to do those checks for a student wearing a WS. The WS would likely obscure back strap, belly strap, and leg straps.

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How does the instructor fly their body at all with the students wingsuit blanketing the airflow to theirs?

What type of control authority does the wingsuit give to the student?

What happens to the pair if the student assumes a less-than-optimal body position?

the WTI needs a Stealth2 (or size equivalent from other manufacturers) and the student needs a Prodigy (or equivalent)

Problem solved, the WTI can easily outfly the student if needed :)
scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

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the WTI needs a Stealth2 (or size equivalent from other manufacturers) and the student needs a Prodigy (or equivalent)

Problem solved, the WTI can easily outfly the student if needed :)


I was thinking the student would end up wearing a specific 'student' suit that has an even smaller wing.

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from the video posted here it's obvious that the horizontal speed of this "tandem student couple" is not signifiant at all...

There are several camera skydivers around them and they were able to follow this "wingsuit tandem" in sitting position.

If they are so slow, what is the point of this wingsuit tandem joke?

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You have got to love internet forums don't you. A place where people who can't do, make themselves feel better by bagging out the people who can do and try to tell people what they can and can't do. Its funny reading through everyones comments here, all which are based on assumption.



Most of the people that have commented on this CAN and DO a lot for this sport and are VERY good experienced skydivers. That actually like to see the sport progress. Just not at the expense of a student that really has no clue to the extra danger that this type of jump will put them in.

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"The TM should loose his ratings for doing this.", why should he. He knows exactly what he is doing and it is not like he put the suit on his student and then got in the plane without any prior planning, training etc.



The TM should not only lose his ratings, but may even be guilty of reckless endangerment. If he had did this with one of my friends or relatives. I would have them sue him for everything he is worth.

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The TM in question would have more tandems than anyone else here has jumps i reckon, and thats not including all his other jumps.



I doubt it. You don't know who you are talking to.

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The TM here in question is a highly skilled skydiver who can do what most of you could probably never do or are too scared to do/try.



The TM in this pick is reckless and I bet has an ego the size of the moon.
Dom


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I don't have much to say because your posts speak for themselves. It's obvious to everyone you are a typical trailer park sky god who can barely skydive other than throw a drogue. And yet you shout down everybody on every single topic. IMO....you embody everything that right minded, normal, humble, educated people hate about skydiving. Thankfully there are not many of you left.



I dont agree with a lot that JP says. BUT... he is not what you say him to be. JP is a very good skydiver in all discipline, from being an AFF instructor, bigway flyer, freeflyer, wingsuiter, swooper and TI.

He may not be the most tactful person in the world but you know where he stands on an issue and I respect that.

IMHO you are the type of skydiver by supporting the TI in question that gives this sport a really bad name. Especially when a student ends up being killed because someone thought this would be cool to do.
Dom


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You have got to love internet forums don't you. A place where people who can't do, make themselves feel better by bagging out the people who can do and try to tell people what they can and can't do. Its funny reading through everyones comments here, all which are based on assumption.



Most of the people that have commented on this CAN and DO a lot for this sport and are VERY good experienced skydivers. That actually like to see the sport progress. Just not at the expense of a student that really has no clue to the extra danger that this type of jump will put them in.

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"The TM should loose his ratings for doing this.", why should he. He knows exactly what he is doing and it is not like he put the suit on his student and then got in the plane without any prior planning, training etc.



The TM should not only lose his ratings, but may even be guilty of reckless endangerment. If he had did this with one of my friends or relatives. I would have them sue him for everything he is worth.

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The TM in question would have more tandems than anyone else here has jumps i reckon, and thats not including all his other jumps.



I doubt it. You don't know who you are talking to.

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The TM here in question is a highly skilled skydiver who can do what most of you could probably never do or are too scared to do/try.



The TM in this pick is reckless and I bet has an ego the size of the moon.



I couldn't agree more, the TI took far too many chances with an unknowing student...he is in the wrong Business IMO....

Tandemt with an experienced jumper, duel wingsuit...Now that could be fun, and great footage...BUT with a student??? REDICULOUS

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So we have tandem BASE and wingsuit tandems. How long until we have wingsuit BASE tandems?



for the record it was ted strong that did the first tandem BASE jump
Look out for the freefly team, Smelly Peppers. Once we get a couple years more experience we will be a force to be reckoned with in the near future! BLUES!

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So we have tandem BASE and wingsuit tandems. How long until we have wingsuit BASE tandems?



for the record it was ted strong that did the first tandem BASE jump



Wanna bet?



Well, you know his pattern: he looks up the correct answer, and then "authoritatively" says something else, to provoke a response.

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Sweet.

Required multiple people to handle the gear - no added risk there.
Unstable exists by a few too - I'd like people with those skills around a tandem jump.
Ugly opening - due to the high forward speed maybe?
Surfed him in on his face! Sweet landing!

What could possibly go wrong on a jump like this???
[:/]>:(:S

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