taking tandem students wingsuiting

[SEREJumper 1]

A quick YouTube search came up with another tandem/wingsuit jump.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcN_1i8HHKk

We're not fucking flying airplanes are we, no we're flying a glorified kite with no power and it should be flown like one! - Stratostar

[DSE 3]

As LouDiamond mentioned, there are at least two others out there too.
One of em' was shown in a presentation at PIA a couple of years ago pointing out that "the day people try to commercialize wingsuit tandems isn't that far off."

[airtwardo 6]

I'm not a TI (anymore), nor a wingsuiter (yet)...


But I do know that Skydiving as most things, is a Risk vs. Reward equation.

We all do (or should do) a little cost / benefit analysis regarding things like this.

TI egos and the 'cool factor' aside, what exactly is the benefit to the paying customer?

I mean, would a tandem 'student' even KNOW the difference between a standard drogue assisted jump and a wingsuit free-fall??

Knowing ALL the facts, would they choose the questionable reward given the added risk?


I always assumed it was SOP for a tandem professional to minimise any and all factors that might pose an even greater risk to the passenger, than the skydive itself.





If that's NOT the case, hum it to a grand, hook a 270, swoop the pond and REALLY give them a thrill!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[firemedic 7]

.................If that's NOT the case, hum it to a grand, hook a 270, swoop the pond and REALLY give them a thrill!


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100% agree

[DSE 3]

Reward to student: They get to do a skydive where they think they're really flying (with a G/R of more than 1:1, maybe they are, sorta). They get to wear wings and feel like "Batman."
I don't think anyone would have a clue about the difference between drogue-assisted and wingsuit freefall.

Risk to student; hell...I just don't feel like typing all that. This TI, who is supposed to be a very experienced wingsuit pilot, seems to be struggling to keep alignment.
What if the student is much taller? Sidespin recovery? Flatspin recovery?
I don't think it is as dangerous as people make it out to be if preserved in a bubble, but as a general practice and not a stunt? It's a frightening thought.

[airtwardo 6]

What if the student is much taller? Sidespin recovery? Flatspin recovery?

I was thinking...what if they get on their back?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[davelepka 4]

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Its funny reading through everyones comments here, all which are based on assumption.

Oh yeah, like this one later in your post-

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Who here was bagging out Patrick De Gayardon, RIP, when he was doing the tandem skysufing, bet no one said back then he should loose his ratings

That was becasue his passenger was a highly experienced jumper who understood the level and nature of the risks they were taking. Nobody has a problem with any stupid tricks that two experienced jumpers want to do with a tandem rig.

As long as everyone involved is reasonably experienced and understands the risks, that's their business. When you bring an non-jumper into the jump, you have a responsibility to them to ensure that the only risks they are taking are the most basic risks invovled in making a skydive. Adding risk by introducing equipment or techniques that the rig was not designed for, and that the manufacturer of the gear does not endorse is irresponsible and not fair to the passenger.

[JohnnyMarko 1]

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I don't think anyone would have a clue about the difference between drogue-assisted and wingsuit freefall.

When I pack tandems at the DZ, tandem pax ask me what the big white thing I'm packing is and I try to explain the drogue and what is does...and I love the dumb look on their face like 'It does whaaaa?'

[diablopilot 2]

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The TM in question would have more tandems than anyone else here has jumps i reckon, and thats not including all his other jumps.

Maybe not.

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Who here was bagging out Patrick De Gayardon, RIP, when he was doing the tandem skysufing, bet no one said back then he should loose his ratings.

1) The "Student" was Wendy Smith, who had many thousands of skydives herself and could not only appreciate the risks, but could fly her ass off if needed.

2) They were not on a system that has specifically spelled out the activities to be conducted on their equipment and by their rating holders.

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The TM here in question is a highly skilled skydiver who can do what most of you could probably never do or are too scared to do/try.

Check yourself, he ain't the first one to do this by a long shot. He's just the first one dumb enough to post that he did it with a student.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[kimemerson 7]

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Who here was bagging out Patrick De Gayardon, RIP, when he was doing the tandem skysufing, bet no one said back then he should loose his ratings..

I could be wrong on this one but Patrick's co-surfer was Wendy Smith and she probably had as many jumps as he did when they did that, or certainly one damned impressive number of jumps anyway. Not messing with any of your assertions here. Just keeping facts straight as facts seem in short supply where speculation reigns instead.

[wildfan75 1]

I'm probably late to the game, but wasn't the same questions asked about doing hook turns with tandems?

And wasn't the same questions asked about jumping with ellipticals with tandems?

Todays fad, next week's standard...

(Note: I do not condemn nor approve of any such behavior or claim to have any experience that would allow me to have any sort of educated or uneducated opinion in any way shape or form.)

[danielcroft 2]

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I mean, would a tandem 'student' even KNOW the difference between a standard drogue assisted jump and a wingsuit free-fall??

I think the more proximity flying videos that people see online, the more likely tandem passengers would be interested in doing a tandem W/S jump. I'm not saying I think it's a good idea or not, just pointing out that while the tandem student may have no idea bout W/S they may really want to try it particularly for some reason or other. Like you said, they don't know the difference so why are we so concerned about them understanding the added risk if the don't understand the basic risks.

[airtwardo 6]

...they don't know the difference so why are we so concerned about them understanding the added risk if they don't understand the basic risks.

Really?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[danielcroft 2]

I'm not saying we're not actually concerned, I was trying to make the point that I didn't think it was logical.

I'd guess that most skydivers would feel that a first time tandem passenger would have no idea of the risks of skydiving. I don't see how them not understanding the risks of doing something else makes it any worse than them not understanding a regular tandem jump.

I think that the assumption of risk is only something an experienced TI can understand and that's not 100% anyway. Adding something that the TI doesn't understand is clearly not good but I don't think that the tandem student not understanding one thing is any worse than them not understanding the other.

[muz 1]

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A quick YouTube search came up with another tandem/wingsuit jump.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcN_1i8HHKk

I was on both loads :) Funny...

[kimemerson 7]

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I'd guess that most skydivers would feel that a first time tandem passenger would have no idea of the risks of skydiving. I don't see how them not understanding the risks of doing something else makes it any worse than them not understanding a regular tandem jump.

I remember hearing a tandem-passenger-to-be emerging from just seeing the waiver video. She turned to her friend and asked, "Did YOU know you could die doing this?" as if she'd only just learned that salient fact two minutes earlier. The people who think we can't breathe in freefall or breathe through our skin; who think we go back up when we deploy; who think a spinning pilot chute is a rotor which propels us forward, these are people who, bright as they might be, don't fully understand what it is we do or what we do to get out of what we did. They won't know diddly until they pick up some experience. So why don't we just stop talking about how much they are prepared for anything at all when they do a tandem. If it's a first time, they don't know shit. Which in itself is not a reason for prohibiting certain behavior by the TI. If that were the case we wouldn't be doing tandems at all.

Back before tandem hook turns were done, a TI at our DZ started doing them on the Strong rig he was using. At first he was told to stop. But he told the DZO that Strong allowed it. He was told to get it in writing, which he did. Strong ok'd it and the TI was then allowed. But he was the ONLY TI allowed because at the time RWS did not allow hook turns. As our technology advances it takes a while for our skills to catch up and even longer to be accepted by the general skydiving community if it's thought of as dangerous. Hook turns were banned on many DZs until, largely due to the advent of pond swooping, canopy manufacturers started designing their canopies to accommodate what we were doing anyway. Now it is understood that hook turns don't kill so much as inexperienced skydivers kill themselves doing what they can't do well. Sort of like "guns don't kill people. People with guns kill people."

[normiss 620]

That's interesting. I have heard two of the top guys at Strong openly complain about hook turns and threaten the entire staff with pulling our rating if it didn't stop.

[kimemerson 7]

This was easily ten years ago. Maybe more. The TI was Mark Tripari. I don't recall what the canopy was, but Mark started with the hook turns much to the shock of quite a few people, but when the school told him to stop he went over the head of the school and straight to the DZO, who told him to stop until he could prove Strong permission. I can't remember if it was Ted Strong or Bill Morrisey but he got the permission in writing from one of them and that put an end right there to the discussion and he continued.
Mark also did the only tandem pond swoop that I know of. It was impressive only because of what it was, not that they did a great swoop. Short as it was, it was dirt-water-dirt. And the passenger was also a TI, which makes a hell of a lot of difference when we're talking about who knows what when risks are taken.

[airtwardo 6]

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I'm not saying we're not actually concerned, I was trying to make the point that I didn't think it was logical.

I'd guess that most skydivers would feel that a first time tandem passenger would have no idea of the risks of skydiving. I don't see how them not understanding the risks of doing something else makes it any worse than them not understanding a regular tandem jump.

I think that the assumption of risk is only something an experienced TI can understand and that's not 100% anyway. Adding something that the TI doesn't understand is clearly not good but I don't think that the tandem student not understanding one thing is any worse than them not understanding the other.

You're kinda making my point from a different angle

It's the TI's job to minimise the the risks for the student, whether those risks are fully understood isn't really the point. . .The TI 'should' know the safest procedures and follow those exclusively.

If I were to go into surgery, I don't know all the ins & out of what the doctor is doing to me, but I would hope scalpel juggling, though impressive wouldn't be included.

There is a time and a place for pushing the envelope as it were. I know a lot of airline pilots that perform at airshows as a side line, you never see an airliner do a 1g roll mid-flight just to open the passengers eyes up to 'other' areas of aviation.

It goes back to links in the 'chain of disaster', knowingly adding links is dumb...to do so as a 'professional' demeans the title.

The 'cowboy' dayz are over and have been for a while, when someone hands you money for a service, you are supposed to be a professional, and in this business that means less risk = better customer service.

If ya DON'T know that...go work at McDonald's where 'burning it in' just means a bad hamburger.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[NovaTTT 1]

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It's the TI's job to minimise the the risks for the student, whether those risks are fully understood isn't really the point. . .The TI 'should' know the safest procedures and follow those exclusively.

If I were to go into surgery, I don't know all the ins & out of what the doctor is doing to me, but I would hope scalpel juggling, though impressive wouldn't be included.

There is a time and a place for pushing the envelope as it were. I know a lot of airline pilots that perform at airshows as a side line, you never see an airliner do a 1g roll mid-flight just to open the passengers eyes up to 'other' areas of aviation.

It goes back to links in the 'chain of disaster', knowingly adding links is dumb...to do so as a 'professional' demeans the title.

The 'cowboy' dayz are over and have been for a while, when someone hands you money for a service, you are supposed to be a professional, and in this business that means less risk = better customer service.

If ya DON'T know that...go work at McDonald's where 'burning it in' just means a bad hamburger.

This would be well inserted within the IRM as well as on the first page in all the tandem mfgrs manuals.

"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

[normiss 620]

Beautifully said.

[rehmwa 2]

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The TM in question would have more tandems than anyone else here has jumps i reckon, and thats not including all his other jumps.
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The TM here in question is a highly skilled skydiver who can do what most of you could probably never do or are too scared to do/try.

ahh, the "Mad SKILZ" argument - nicely played

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[danielcroft 2]

I guess we are saying the same thing.

It occurred to me was that the passengers understanding of the risk is really irrelevant, what's important is the TI's (in this case) understanding of the risks. That understanding changes over time and is different for different TIs.

The line of reasoning that I thought of was as follows: I takes a certain number of jumps to become a TI, a training course and being signed off, then taking a few experienced skydivers of course. Once you've reached that point and you're taking your first (beer!) paying customer you have a very limited experience with tandems. If this same procedure were followed with tandem wingsuit training of TIs, would we feel any different about it? Is there a difference between equally (kind of nebulous when that's not defined for tandem wingsuit) proficient TIs and WSTIs?

The thought I was having was: is this really just a matter of time or is it a no go ever?

[Ron 7]

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A place where people who can't do, make themselves feel better by bagging out the people who can do and try to tell people what they can and can't do. Its funny reading through everyones comments here, all which are based on assumption.

This from the guy that posted:

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http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2345849;#2345849

Regardless of how good the camera flyer is i'm not gonna jepordise my safety or my passengers safety by letting someone hang on. there just seems to be too many cons than pros for me on this subject.

and

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http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2375770;#2375770

First of all as a TI I would never consider having the laterals that loose on my passenger, any number of things can go wrong. Second of all, apart from being a stupid thing to do, the TI should be showing of for the camera like that. The focus of the whole video is the student not the TI trying to upstage the student or be the centre of attention. The passenger pays a lot of money for there videos it should be all about them not what the guy on the back can do to show off.
Personally i think any TI who is stupid enough to do that should have there TI rating pulled

Quite a difference in positions.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[diablopilot 2]

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'd guess that most skydivers would feel that a first time tandem passenger would have no idea of the risks of skydiving. I don't see how them not understanding the risks of doing something else makes it any worse than them not understanding a regular tandem jump.

Your logic is retarded. If I carry your logic as extend it to the way tandems are currently done, we can do away with the waiver and videos. You know, the ones that explain the risks to the punters?

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.