taking tandem students wingsuiting

[fencebuster 7]

I am no expert, but I am a pretty competent lawyer. This is a bad idea on so many levels that it is hard to express. It violates the tandem manufacturer's rules that you have to agree to before you get the rating. No drogue. You want to put the tandem manufacturers, the DZ and TI out of business or bankrupt them, killing one student in this scenario is likely to do it. It just ain't worth it, girls.

Charlie Gittins, 540-327-2208
AFF-I, Sigma TI, IAD-I
MEI, CFI-I, Senior Rigger
Former DZO, Blue Ridge Skydiving Adventures

[Para5-0 0]

or to add a bit, how exactly would a ti deal with a problem? I for one have no idea what kind of spin could be created with that configuration or more importantly how the hell to get out of it. It is nothing less than experimental and anyone who does it should be considered a test dummy.

and I am all for progress, but safety should at least be part of the equation, not to mention liability.

[normiss 620]

Here is a picture of one of the most skilled wingsuit skydivers on the planet after a nasty flat spin.
Heffro
Now introduce a student with zero skills???
No thank you.

I do appreciate stratostar's Darwin approach though.

You boys step right up, I'll video.

[DocPop 1]

petejones45 - is that you?

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[kimemerson 7]

Quote

I don't why all you guys have to be all dickhead like and try to hold back progress man, I mean so what if it's dangerous, sky jumping is dangerous, hell there is nothing wrong with a little added excitement for the right price, we all need to band together and start wingsuit base jumping so everyone can enjoy proximity flying at it's best and this is a good start to get everyone on the same page, just think of all the new people this will bring into the sport and bridge day too.

Hell everyone said the Wright brothers were nutcases and dangerous too and now look where we are... ye all need to stop being such a bunch of wadded up panties in your crack north American wankers and get on with the rest of the worlds progress in aero sports..... dude! Hurry up and suit man, I'll video.

i'm assuming you're just having a little fun with the truly concerned here. Nice, dry wit. And if you aren't kidding, then your stated viewpoint suggests to me that you aren't happy being a USPA member. I mean, it has rules and regulations, many of which restrict us from our stupidity and prevent us from killing ourselves and others. So, in the highly unlikely event that you are not kidding, I'd like to understand why anyone with this view would tolerate such an unsavory organization and not just go somewhere else.
If it's a joke, please excuse this. I have no way of knowing.

[davelepka 4]

Quote

Then what is the benefit of a funjumper doing a wingsuit jump

There is a distinct difference between a normal jump, and one with a wingsuit. An experienced jumper, who is familiar with a standard freefall skydive is able to recognize and appreciate those differnces.

A first time tandem student, or even a repeat tandem for that matter, does not have the frame of reference to recognize or appreciate those differnces, so the benefit is lost on them. The benefit is lost, but the added risk remains. Makes no sense.

None of that is mentioning the issue of passenger understanding and consent. Without in-depth knowledge of both tandem and wingsuit jumping, it's impossible to truely understand the nature and degree of added risk. A passenger cannot provide informed consent to those risks if they do not understand them.

I seem to recall somewhere in Europe (maybe Italy) they offer tandem tracking dives (I mean atmo-whatever).

[stratostar 5]

Me in Mex-E-co we don't need no stEEEEking USPA!

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[kimemerson 7]

That's stEEEENking. You left out the N.

[shropshire 0]

I guess that it was only a matter of time.

Good thing or bad thing? - I'm not sure yet but don't let any damned lawyerists find out about it or they'll be High-Fiveing and counting their fees winning already .... whooops too late

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[JohnnyMarko 1]

I see photos of the jump, but where's the video?

[RIGGER 0]

When a fun jumper is jumping a wing suit he/she got an amount of jumps, lic. & specific training by a W/S I - at least this is the way it should be.

Skydiving is a great sport with risks which skydivers knows, understand & accept with a clear mind based on the right education.

A tandem passenger trust the DZ/DZO & TI to take him/her for a skydive which will be as SAFE as it could be based on:
1.Well Trained TI with a SAFE attitude & thinking, act & looks PRO.
2.Well served & packed tandem system with all needed SAFETY items like AAD & RSL / SKYHOOK for back up.
3.Well served Aircraft with a well trained pilot.
4.SAFE weather conditions.
5.SAFE attitude of the DZ & DZO / STAFF.
6.SAFE landing area.
7.The whole skydive process is done based on the tandem system mfg. instruction & national rules / law.

We have to do all we can to keep our work & sport as SAFE as we can.

None of us the TI's have any right to add risks to our public service - yes, TI's are serving the public like a commercial pilot even he/she flys only one person at time.

If any person acting as a TI does not understand that he/she must STOP doing tandems!!!

As a UPT/USPA T I/E who do tandems for living & getting close to my 10,000th Tandem jumps I can say my opinion.

I hope you got my points.

Be Safe !!!

[Skydivesg 6]

I think whoever took that picture should contact Sony and tell them their red eye reduction SUCKS.

Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

Quote

A tandem passenger trust the DZ/DZO & TI to take him/her for a skydive which will be as SAFE as it could be based on:
1.Well Trained TI with a SAFE attitude & thinking, act & looks PRO.
2.Well served & packed tandem system with all needed SAFETY items like AAD & RSL / SKYHOOK for back up.
3.Well served Aircraft with a well trained pilot.
4.SAFE weather conditions.
5.SAFE attitude of the DZ & DZO / STAFF.
6.SAFE landing area.
7.The whole skydive process is done based on the tandem system mfg. instruction & national rules / law.

We have to do all we can to keep our work & sport as SAFE as we can.

None of us the TI's have any right to add risks to our public service - yes, TI's are serving the public like a commercial pilot even he/she flys only one person at time.

If any person acting as a TI does not understand that he/she must STOP doing tandems!!!

You are starting to sound like a bureaucrat. SAFETY is not a binomial choice; risk aversion is not the same thing as risk management. Having video increases the risk, are you in favour of banning video?

When the Icarus tandem canopies came out and people started swooping tandems I was horrified. Induced speed landings are more dangerous than straight in ones. We learned a long time ago that toggle whipping sport canopies was like fishing for wheelchairs, how could it possibly be justified on tandems. I waited with trepidation for the sad evidence to pour in. I am somewhat stubborn and clung to that position for years and years as millions of tandems were toggle whipped. Eventually I was forced to admit that the rash of crippled and killed tandem passengers and TMs has not materialized. Although I am not willing to sacrifice my knees for stand-up landings I have noticed that when I do them many of my students get a value worth pursuing. I now engage in induced speed landings.
Tandem wing suit jumping really is taking this to a new level of "plug and play" adventuring. It certainly sounds like something I will never do, but I am not willing to say it should never be done. Should it be the norm at various centres? Absolutely not! That does not mean that it cannot be an option for some students who are interested in a higher level of adventure and are willing to accept a higher level of risk.
Someone asked above whether there had been several hundred test jumps done with experienced wingsuiters before introducing it to the public. Good question. Icarus and the Australian federation should embark on that if it has not already been done. The APF did a great job of leading the way on hand-cam, let's hope they do the same for wingsuit tandems. How much tandem experience do you need? How much wingsuit experience? How many practice jumps should you do? How much additional training will be needed for the student? These are all questions that need to be answered before the thing takes off as opposed to a muddle through approach.
The container manufacturers in the US are no doubt going to fight this for legal reasons. It will remain to be seen whether they will actually take action against TIs who engage in it. If they are too aggressive they risk losing market share to less risk adverse European manufacturers.
For those who are accusing practitioners of endangering the entire industry (similar arguments we heard over hand-cam) I would only say that people in other countries do not owe North Americans anything when it comes to our foolish litigation laws.
I am really uncertain whether this is feasible for large groups of the public from a technical point of view, but I am very sure the market exists. I also think it looks like a great training tool for teaching wingsuiting to experienced jumpers.

[swoopgaz 0]

You have got to love internet forums don't you. A place where people who can't do, make themselves feel better by bagging out the people who can do and try to tell people what they can and can't do. Its funny reading through everyones comments here, all which are based on assumption.

"This is definately a first time passenger, i can tell by the body position.", is it really, who told you that. Well what do you know, its not a first timer and the body position looks pretty bloody good to me in the pic.

"The TM should loose his ratings for doing this.", why should he. He knows exactly what he is doing and it is not like he put the suit on his student and then got in the plane without any prior planning, training etc.

The TM in question would have more tandems than anyone else here has jumps i reckon, and thats not including all his other jumps.

Who here was bagging out Patrick De Gayardon, RIP, when he was doing the tandem skysufing, bet no one said back then he should loose his ratings.

The TM here in question is a highly skilled skydiver who can do what most of you could probably never do or are too scared to do/try.

[koppel 3]

Quote

You are starting to sound like a bureaucrat. SAFETY is not a binomial choice; risk aversion is not the same thing as risk management. Having video increases the risk, are you in favour of banning video?

When the Icarus tandem canopies came out and people started swooping tandems I was horrified. Induced speed landings are more dangerous than straight in ones. We learned a long time ago that toggle whipping sport canopies was like fishing for wheelchairs, how could it possibly be justified on tandems. I waited with trepidation for the sad evidence to pour in. I am somewhat stubborn and clung to that position for years and years as millions of tandems were toggle whipped. Eventually I was forced to admit that the rash of crippled and killed tandem passengers and TMs has not materialized. Although I am not willing to sacrifice my knees for stand-up landings I have noticed that when I do them many of my students get a value worth pursuing. I now engage in induced speed landings.
Tandem wing suit jumping really is taking this to a new level of "plug and play" adventuring. It certainly sounds like something I will never do, but I am not willing to say it should never be done. Should it be the norm at various centres? Absolutely not! That does not mean that it cannot be an option for some students who are interested in a higher level of adventure and are willing to accept a higher level of risk.
Someone asked above whether there had been several hundred test jumps done with experienced wingsuiters before introducing it to the public. Good question. Icarus and the Australian federation should embark on that if it has not already been done. The APF did a great job of leading the way on hand-cam, let's hope they do the same for wingsuit tandems. How much tandem experience do you need? How much wingsuit experience? How many practice jumps should you do? How much additional training will be needed for the student? These are all questions that need to be answered before the thing takes off as opposed to a muddle through approach.
The container manufacturers in the US are no doubt going to fight this for legal reasons. It will remain to be seen whether they will actually take action against TIs who engage in it. If they are too aggressive they risk losing market share to less risk adverse European manufacturers.
For those who are accusing practitioners of endangering the entire industry (similar arguments we heard over hand-cam) I would only say that people in other countries do not owe North Americans anything when it comes to our foolish litigation laws.
I am really uncertain whether this is feasible for large groups of the public from a technical point of view, but I am very sure the market exists. I also think it looks like a great training tool for teaching wingsuiting to experienced jumpers.

well put together reply. Interesting to think that the Tandem was originally designed as a teaching tool and not a 'tick the box' event.

I like my canopy...


...it lets me down.

[normiss 620]

They have claimed the passenger is a first timer on their FB page and their DZ website.
If that IS truly the case, then this is clearly stupid.
I'd be curious to hear the manufacturer's opinion on tandem wingies...bet they'd fully disagree with you.
But what the hell do they know, right?
They aren't brave enough. Skilled enough. Forward thinking enough.
Darwin needs to step up and help us with these types of jumps.

Yes I know, it's "cool and shit".
So is being alive.

[normiss 620]

Given the speeds that wingsuit jumping has vs. the speed the drogue was designed to work in, I would completely disagree with anyone doing that.
It's all cool and fun until the drogue or parachute explodes due to excessive speed.
The drogue IS your pilot chute, until it's not there.
There parachute save our life, until it's not there.
Shreds of nylon do neither.

[stratostar 5]

what the hell do you know, you ride a motorcycle without a brain bucket......

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[normiss 620]

When you have no brain, you need no bucket.

[LouDiamond 1]

Sorry to rain on anyones parade here but I can assure you that is not the first time this has been done, in fact it's been done several times over the years and I am aware of at least 1 that was a BASE jump.

Now, that being said, I do not condone this kind of thing for many of the reasons that have been stated already. It's funny, if you stay in this sport long enough you will eventually see several someones show up one day and claim to be "the first" to do something or to have invented something that has already been done, it's almost like clockwork. This is just another one of those instances.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[koppel 3]

Not sure what forward speed a wing-suit can have but I know that a drogue-less tandem can hit 300+km/h

I have no issues with dumping out a drogue at those speeds and I know that a well maintained set of equipment with a well maintained drogue is not any more or less likely to fail on me than during a 'normal' jump.

My point was it is an interesting comparison to the original stated purpose of a Tandem which was to assist in the education of a student in the process of learning to skydive.

If you want to educate people more then educate those Tandem Students (passengers in all but name) that are filing in their bucket-list boxes believe erroneously that skydiving is safe because thats what they have been led to believe.

If someone who has made a number of jumps previously wants to extend that experience and understands the risks then it is their choice to do so.

Freedom of Choice is not just an American concept

I like my canopy...


...it lets me down.

[normiss 620]

Damn.
I missed the parade.

[mx19 0]

People that were there have said the passenger had 16 previous tandems, so not a first timer by any stretch of he imagination, allbeit not an experienced jumpEr.

[RIGGER 0]

I'm so far from what you point on. (bureaucrat)

I'm a proud T I/E who put my PRO thinking about that specific case which came up here.

No, I'll not ban Video all time is done with a camera person who is trained & do his work like it should with all the safe points that TI / Camera flyer should take care about.

I'll not go into the Handy Cam subject - I never jumped it so I do not have a first hand opinion - I do have my opinion as a T I/E but will not go into it.

At the end of the day all of us including our tandem students / passengers want to be back home SAFE & HAPPY.

DZO / TI's risk managment should consider liability & self protection by doing the work by the Mfg. instructions.

There is nothing to do with your location - a tandem jump is a tandem jump rgardless of locations - the tandem system manual are still valid & no one has the rights to change without the mfg. premit.

Sir, any TI in any location does owe to any tandem mfg. for being saved on each jump.

Do you think that major Tandem Systems Mfg. in the USA & Europe want to be in risk based on "Tandem Games"? NO!!!

Tandem is not "Plug & Play" it is much more than that & before going into "New Areas" please focus on the PRO work should be done from "Student Harnessing", "System Inspection" & all the tandem jump process - look at the tandem accidents in the past few years - TI's issue / level in most cases.

Be Safe Sir !!!

[julio_gyn 0]

I can have 100s jumps and be a first time tandem... Anhybody remember the HD tandem video? is there any first timer tandem passenger able to show that kind of body position? I think is just a marketing fire...

Julio Cesar
blue skies