All the reason needed to "teach" rather than do "rides".

[kallend 1,621]

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what is your return rate. This means how many people return to your dropzone for a second jump after they jump the first time.

I don't have much of an idea of that. I do very few tandem jumps nowdays because the (commercial) DZ's prefer the carnies. :)

Roger Nelson, who created a successful commercial DZ, was adamant that all tandems were treated as students, expected to pull for themselves, steer, etc., given a log book, and properly debriefed. Rook continues that. SDC claims (and I have no data to verify this) that their return rate is high. They certainly put a lot of folks through the AFP program.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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Roger Nelson, who created a successful commercial DZ, was adamant that all tandems were treated as students, expected to pull for themselves, steer, etc., given a log book, and properly debriefed. Rook continues that. SDC claims (and I have no data to verify this) that their return rate is high. They certainly put a lot of folks through the AFP program.

John, you are correct. There are of course notable exceptions. That post edited.

[Andy9o8 0]

FWIW, one characteristic of tandems is that it's possible (even if not preferable) to take a passenger on a "ride" with absolutely zero pre-jump training or briefing if you wish. Back when S/L was THE only FJ training method, that was impossible. Back in the 70s I started at a medium-sized DZ that had quite a lot of business from college students making their first "I always wanted to do that" jump. For most of them, that was their only jump. But by god, when they landed, they were trained skydivers. And even adjusting for inflation, the first jump course and jump was a hell of a lot cheaper than a first tandem these days. I frankly doubt that any potential one-jumper back then was put off by the fact that he'd have to undergo a few hours' training before making that jump; in fact, I think it was a selling point.

[nigel99 143]

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What's your return rate?

fuck all, most of them have left the county within a week of jumping.

And that is why in the last 10 years sport jumping in NZ has all but disappeared. The "ride" attitude, has killed the sport.

In reality like it or not all the people that I know who did tandems did it to put a notch in their belt. I agree with Rhys in his approach and at the cost of a tandem I think you are more likely to get referrals from people who had alot of fun than trying to provide a step 1 learning curve. When my sister did her tandem she got given a glass of champagne, video and a certificate and loved it. A really good quality decent sized photo that can is framed would probably generate alot of interest amongst a tandems mates. Last comment - for many people going through the "learning curve" is quite a tedious process. Going on a tandem and seeing it as a baby step towards being a skydiver is alot more intimidating than "going for the ride of your life".

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[diablopilot 2]

Great. Do you skydive with your sister?

Where do you think the fun jumpers come from?

How about the instructors?

THe DZO's?

You people have no concept of what sustains a sport, and keeps it from being an industry.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

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Since you have to do all that anyway, how much more effort does it take to give them a wrist mount alti and let them pull a ripcord at 5000', or at least try. Then teach them "Canopy 101" when under the parachute.

It takes me five minutes more to train a person to do all the Cat A/B tasks and I ask every single one of them if that's what they want to do. I also tell them that by doing so they just wasted zero dollars toward their A license since their first "real" AFF will be a Cat B (at least at this dropzone school and when I run private students on my own). If they say "no thanks" and don't want to do anything, they are still going to wear an alti and are going to understand the entire procedure when they sit through our student brief.

We have a tremendous return rate nowadays here at Raeford as a result.

Chuck

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... I agree with Rhys in his approach and at the cost of a tandem I think you are more likely to get referrals from people who had a lot of fun than trying to provide a step 1 learning curve.... for many people going through the "learning curve" is quite a tedious process. Going on a tandem and seeing it as a baby step towards being a skydiver is a lot more intimidating than "going for the ride of your life".

I guess a certain number of people think that a tandem jump is either instruction OR a fun ride. Your post seems to indicate that (but I could be wrong). I think it can be both. It is mainly about attitude, not what exactly they do or do not do on the jump.

I'm not going to pull out a (USPA) SIM and start teaching a first time tandem student from that. Yuck!

I'm just going to teach them a bunch of fun stuff that happens to be a subset of that. And most importantly, if they don't seem that interested in a particular item, I'll let it pass.

(If a tandem student came to me holding a SIM and wanted me to teach them ISP Category A, I'd buy them the whole bottle of champagne.)

[pinkfairy 0]

My first jump was a tandem, and not a typical instructional tandem, I only got to steer the canopy for a bit, but was instantly hooked. I knew I wanted to do this, and I was wondering why everyone didn't do it all the time.

"Ride"-tandems also sells skydiving, but I'd really have liked to pull the handle that first time. And I think many people who only want to jump once would like to do just that, I think it would make a better jump.

Relax, you can die if you mess up, but it will probably not be by bullet.

I'm a BIG, TOUGH BIGWAY FORMATION SKYDIVER! What are you?

[rhys 0]

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To me the tandem student is not just another potential sale! They are someone who will tell many others of their experience, whether or not they jump again. Positive word-of-mouth marketing has more value than just another sale. (I tend to think long-term about the sport.)

This is what our customers get to experience, we do not even have an adequate landing area for students and a licence jumpers (yet) but people want to jump out of a plane here, thay want to do it once and this is the place, that is the mentality. bucket list....

Skydive Franz Promo

Just wait and see there will be a pond... we will do students, and we will have boogies and funjumpers are welcome.

in fact there will be plenty of slots going this summer (US winter 10/11 ) as we will be in a larger aircraft without plant to fill it. Funjumpers are very much a part of Skydive Franz and i will be one of them, but we have a B licence prerequesate.

9 out of 10 of our customers are more interested in what is out the window than learning about skydiving.

But once again; if they are interested and ask then they get all the information they get.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[rhys 0]

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"Ride"-tandems also sells skydiving, but I'd really have liked to pull the handle that first time. And I think many people who only want to jump once would like to do just that, I think it would make a better jump.

I have been declined by many people when I have asked them if they want to pull the release, too much to think about, they just want to enjoy themselves on ther first jump no stress!

I tell all my customers not to worry if they get it all wrong just enjoy yourself and soak up the freefall as it will only last so long. Then they usually get it right as they just have to relax!

Different strokes for different folks! Yet I have seen time and time again instructors blaming the students' poor perfomance on the customer themselves...

That is a failed instructor. Who cares if they don't get it right, let them have fun they are paying through the nose for it, it is thier choice!

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[rhys 0]

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You people have no concept of what sustains a sport, and keeps it from being an industry.

Thats what people said only a few years (a couple of decades) ago when Rugby went from amateur to professional.

why does skydiving have to be done by hippies in tie die when you can have a slick operation offering people the time of thier life.

I don't suggest you approach is bad or negative in any way in fact i admire your apporach but you would get quite tired of bothering if you were here, I'm certain.

They will be too busy asking you to say something to their mum ("sorry i didn't tell you mum") on the video. I teach them about New Zealand, theworld heritage park and the geography so thay want to come back to New Zealand!

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[Andy9o8 0]

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why does skydiving have to be done by hippies in tie die

Because God intended it that way.

[nigel99 143]

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... I agree with Rhys in his approach and at the cost of a tandem I think you are more likely to get referrals from people who had a lot of fun than trying to provide a step 1 learning curve.... for many people going through the "learning curve" is quite a tedious process. Going on a tandem and seeing it as a baby step towards being a skydiver is a lot more intimidating than "going for the ride of your life".

I guess a certain number of people think that a tandem jump is either instruction OR a fun ride. Your post seems to indicate that (but I could be wrong). I think it can be both. It is mainly about attitude, not what exactly they do or do not do on the jump.

I'm not going to pull out a (USPA) SIM and start teaching a first time tandem student from that. Yuck!

I'm just going to teach them a bunch of fun stuff that happens to be a subset of that. And most importantly, if they don't seem that interested in a particular item, I'll let it pass.

(If a tandem student came to me holding a SIM and wanted me to teach them ISP Category A, I'd buy them the whole bottle of champagne.)

I think it is probably the fact that it is very difficult to effectively communicate in a forum. I guess if I was doing a tandem it would be fun to learn - for someone like my sister it is fun to enjoy the view. I am pretty sure that tandem passengers are a mixed bag and some want to learn and others simply want a notch in their belt.

I think your post summed it up completely - and it is so easy when people say "teach" to envisage people getting lectured with all sorts of technical "stuff" that they are simply not interested in - I realise this is not always the case.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[kuai43 7]

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... we will do students, and we will have boogies

Every fight is a food fight if you're a cannibal

Goodness is something to be chosen. When a man cannot choose, he ceases to be a man. - Anthony Burgess

[matthewcline 0]

And of course as a T-I in the US there is no reason not to follow the FAR's and BSR's (altimeter use).

Teach, it is what your rating says you do any way.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[RoryJ 0]

Just the other day I had someone for a T2 (L & R 360s, delta forward) that "just wanted to go for a ride" and did not want to worry about anything else. I gave him a quick go through of HOW to do it all and when to pull. Sure enough, when we opened the canopy he was hooting and hollering about how much fun it was and he was glad that he DID take the time to learn it.

He even said he was considering coming back to learn more (he had previously stated that this was his last jump), so a bit training can go a long way for someone's enjoyment and I am not a sky-prostitute, having folks just use my body for a thrill.

Not again!

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Just the other day I had someone for a T2 (L & R 360s, delta forward) that "just wanted to go for a ride" and did not want to worry about anything else. I gave him a quick go through of HOW to do it all and when to pull. Sure enough, when we opened the canopy he was hooting and hollering about how much fun it was and he was glad that he DID take the time to learn it.

He even said he was considering coming back to learn more (he had previously stated that this was his last jump), so a bit training can go a long way for someone's enjoyment and I am not a sky-prostitute, having folks just use my body for a thrill.

That is a great example, thank you.

This type of thing is what I try to encourage tandem instructors to do. Not to force them to do anything, but just to present the information, because most students will make good use of it. (And the instructor will have more fun too.)

If a tandem instructor treats it like a carnival ride, it will be.

[Earlybirdmel 0]

From a students point of view, I did my tandem a few weeks back and although had the time of my life, and indeed hope to be doing a static line course in November, I would of loved to have been asked "if" I would like to maybe take control of the canopy for a moment or pull the cord etc... after being briefed. I also like the idea that some DZ's give the student a log book. I spent £305 on the jump and getting the dvd and stills and yes, if i had it at the moment would pay it again tomorrow, but a log book would of been nice :) From a sales point of view, surely it would "encourage" those who wanted to do it again to go out there and get it filled