NVizABull 0 #1 May 8, 2010 the uspa used to have a 500 jump minimum for flying video with tandems...actually looked for it and couldn't find it... anyway, just curious with the tandemmasters out there what your opinion is? you've got someone else relying on your judgment and their life...why compromise it with someone that's not got but a couple hundred jumps wanting to allow their ego override judgment and think they can do anything? just looking for some tandemmaster opinions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #2 May 8, 2010 IMHO, numbers only give part of the story. I want someone who can fly their body without thinking, be very safety conscious, who will listen to me, who won't freak my student out with their stories, and knows where to fly (low and in front) to get a good shot. If they can do that before 500 ... fine (most likely it takes 300+ jumps to obtain those skills, and those jumps are better spent doing RW and coaching, not free-flying or hop n pop swoops) If they have 1000 jumps and can't do that, I won't allow them to jump with me and my student. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #3 May 8, 2010 QuoteIMHO, numbers only give part of the story. I want someone who can fly their body without thinking, be very safety conscious, who will listen to me, who won't freak my student out with their stories, and knows where to fly (low and in front) to get a good shot. If they can do that before 500 ... fine (most likely it takes 300+ jumps to obtain those skills, and those jumps are better spent doing RW and coaching, not free-flying or hop n pop swoops) If they have 1000 jumps and can't do that, I won't allow them to jump with me and my student. Absolutely! I have been jumping camera for about 100 jumps now, having been a TM I understand their concerns and I'm quite conservative, in truth I do a pretty vanilla job overall...but jumping camera has gotten me to watch and appreciate many other camera flyers and I can attest there are vidiots out there that have a fraction of my jumps, and do a 3 times better job. Numbers don't tell the story. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rover 9 #4 May 8, 2010 I know a girl who let her ego get in way of her abilities. 300 jumps, 2nd jump on a Crossfire 2 129 with cameras on her head. Smashed herself up to the point 8 months ago that she's lucky to be walking on sticks at the moment. Apparently there was 'turbulance' on landing and no fault of hers. Yeah right.....It was at a non USPA DZ though.... 2 wrongs don't make a right - but 3 lefts do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MotherGoose 0 #5 May 9, 2010 There was recently a good discussion on this HERE If you take the time to read through all the posts, you will find the legal liabilities in not following UPT's strict guidelines. UPT clearly spells out the tandem RW restrictions in their Sigma manual. To answer your question in a nutshell, I follow the Sigma requirements when allowing someone to jump relative to me when Im in a TI role.You think you understand the situation, but what you don't understand, is that the situation just changed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #6 May 10, 2010 And for Strong, or Vector TM's?coitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #7 May 10, 2010 Vector is Sigma, the agreements and requirements are the same thing.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MotherGoose 0 #8 May 10, 2010 I understand that Strong and Racer (including some international brands) will all have their own rules. I'm not familiar with these because I don't have their rating. I just know that Bill Booth presents a clear restriction on tandem RW with Sigma gear.You think you understand the situation, but what you don't understand, is that the situation just changed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #9 May 10, 2010 Strong says that vidiots need a minimum of 300 jumps before they can chase tandems. Some young jumpers have the basic skills at only 300 jumps and others never learn. The good news is that capitalist economies tend to weed out the incompetent. If vidiots are incompetent, their video is unsalable and they soon disappear from the vidiot rotation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MotherGoose 0 #10 May 10, 2010 QuoteThe good news is that capitalist economies tend to weed out the incompetent. If vidiots are incompetent, their video is unsalable and they soon disappear from the vidiot rotation. The bad news is, you could die trying. In any case, anyone looking for minimum requirements, should always stick to the mfr's req's in the least. Interesting that Strong is so much less strict than Sigma. Do you have a link to some verbiage ?You think you understand the situation, but what you don't understand, is that the situation just changed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,396 #11 May 10, 2010 >The bad news is, you could die trying. That's not that really bad news. It's sad, but a jumper who kills himself due to his own recklessness/incompetence is entirely within the risks he chooses to take. The really bad news is that you could kill a student - and that's not OK no matter how many waivers they sign. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cphelan 0 #12 May 11, 2010 Not sure if i skimmed over it but the topic of currency hasnt come up at all. Someone with 200 jumps in one year is gonna be alot more qualified than someone that has 500 jumps spread out in a period of say 3 or 5 years. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #13 May 11, 2010 QuoteNot sure if i skimmed over it but the topic of currency hasnt come up at all. Someone with 200 jumps in one year is gonna be alot more qualified than someone that has 500 jumps spread out in a period of say 3 or 5 years. Don't agree about that one. In general I'd rather have the 500 jumps guy with me, as they've seen more, and 500 jumps in 3-5 years isn't that uncurrent anyway. ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #14 May 11, 2010 QuoteNot sure if i skimmed over it but the topic of currency hasnt come up at all. Someone with 200 jumps in one year is gonna be alot more qualified than someone that has 500 jumps spread out in a period of say 3 or 5 years. I disagree ... personally if they had the flying skills, I'd prefer the 500 jump over 3 years guy versus the guy with 200 jumps in a year. There are opportunities to learn besides the sky. In other words, time in sport is meaningful too. But as I said in my original post, numbers by themselves can be meaningless steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WatchYourStep 0 #15 May 11, 2010 QuoteStrong says that vidiots need a minimum of 300 jumps before they can chase tandems. Rob- Did they recently add this requirement? I only ask because I remember talking to Tom N, when he was at Strong and there was no such requirement. They left it to the discretion of the TI. "You start off your skydiving career with a bag full of luck and an empty bag of experience. The trick is to fill the bag of experience up before your bag of luck runs out." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MotherGoose 0 #16 May 11, 2010 QuoteNot sure if i skimmed over it but the topic of currency hasnt come up at all. Someone with 200 jumps in one year is gonna be alot more qualified than someone that has 500 jumps spread out in a period of say 3 or 5 years. UPT clearly states that you need 100 RW jumps in the last year. See qualification #3 attached.You think you understand the situation, but what you don't understand, is that the situation just changed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
timmyfitz 0 #17 May 11, 2010 QuoteQuoteNot sure if i skimmed over it but the topic of currency hasnt come up at all. Someone with 200 jumps in one year is gonna be alot more qualified than someone that has 500 jumps spread out in a period of say 3 or 5 years. UPT clearly states that you need 100 RW jumps in the last year. See qualification #3 attached. 500 jumps over 5 years could be 100 jumps per year/ 100 jumps in the last year. What was your point? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #18 May 11, 2010 "QuoteQuote... Strong ... Do you have a link to some verbiage ? ....................................................................... The 2010 version of the Strong TICC exam sets a 300 jump minimum. Remember that is a MINIMUM. DZs can also set higher local standards. I remember one DZ, that had a surplus of AFF Is, so they set that as the minimum to video tandems. At Pitt Meadows, aspiring vidiots also need to show me samples of their video, and get briefed by me and the senior vidiot BEFORE they are allowed to chase tandems. Then they chase me a few times, before they are allowed to join the vidiot rotation. Rob Warner Strong Tandem Examiner Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MotherGoose 0 #19 May 11, 2010 My point ? I'm not making a point, I'm answering a question. Cphelan mentioned that the topic of currency had not come up. It is referred to clearly by UPT that you need to do a minimum of 100RW jumps EVERY year to stay current enough to fly tandem video. Beyond that, if you do 200 a year or 1000 a year, UPT doesn't care. Obviously the more you jump the better chance you have of being a good flyer, but from a legal and liability standpoint, you need to complete 100RW jumps every year to fly tandem video on Sigma. So, once you have completed a minimum of 500 RW jumps, 100 of which must be video jumps, you can fly video on a Sigma tandem as long as you stay current by a minimum of 100 relative work jumps every year. (TI or AFFI rating trumps the initial 500 RW jump minimum.)You think you understand the situation, but what you don't understand, is that the situation just changed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites WatchYourStep 0 #20 May 11, 2010 Quote"QuoteQuote... Strong ... Do you have a link to some verbiage ? ....................................................................... The 2010 version of the Strong TICC exam sets a 300 jump minimum. Remember that is a MINIMUM. DZs can also set higher local standards. I remember one DZ, that had a surplus of AFF Is, so they set that as the minimum to video tandems. At Pitt Meadows, aspiring vidiots also need to show me samples of their video, and get briefed by me and the senior vidiot BEFORE they are allowed to chase tandems. Then they chase me a few times, before they are allowed to join the vidiot rotation. Rob Warner Strong Tandem Examiner Rob, can you give me a reference for that? I just can't find that anywhere. Just talked to Mike at Strong Enterprises, he has stated that Strong does NOT have a minimum number of jumps that they require before someone videos a tandem. Just trying to make sure we're all on the same page here. If that's the new rule I want to abide by it, but need to find it first. "You start off your skydiving career with a bag full of luck and an empty bag of experience. The trick is to fill the bag of experience up before your bag of luck runs out." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 558 #21 May 12, 2010 Strong Enterprises TICC Written Exam Doc. 580360 Rev. C 01/11/2010 page 11 Question 94 "The minimum recommended experience for flying video with tandem pairs is _____________ ..." The answer guide says: "300 jumps" Other tandem manufacturers have similar standards because they all started by copying Strong and are gradually converging - to reduce differences. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites WatchYourStep 0 #22 May 13, 2010 QuoteStrong Enterprises TICC Written Exam Doc. 580360 Rev. C 01/11/2010 page 11 Question 94 "The minimum recommended experience for flying video with tandem pairs is _____________ ..." The answer guide says: "300 jumps" Other tandem manufacturers have similar standards because they all started by copying Strong and are gradually converging - to reduce differences. Thanks Rob, I got confused in the semantics, but they do count..... That says Strong "recommends" which is a different from saying they "require" like UPT does. So Strong still leaves it up to the TI/DZO. Thanks "You start off your skydiving career with a bag full of luck and an empty bag of experience. The trick is to fill the bag of experience up before your bag of luck runs out." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NVizABull 0 #23 May 13, 2010 thanks guys, you all confirmed my opinion....i'm not a TI, but a rigger and with 14 yrs in the sport, have tried to be a safety conscious jumper....it irks me to see these people enter the sport and think they're special and don't consider the safety of others, just worried about what they get...and 200 jumps over the course of a couple years is not by any stretch putting you at an experience level to be flying video with tandems. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MotherGoose 0 #24 May 13, 2010 I'm not even sure most Sigma tandem schools even know of these restrictions. How many people read the whole manual ? This section wasn't even mentioned in my TI course. We all just kind of assume that the DZO/gear owner knows the rules and follows them. In the end though, the ultimate liability lies on the shoulders of the TI and for that reason, I will not break the rules that UPT has set forth. If there is a videographer on the rotation that does not meet the minimum requirements, I don't do the particular tandems that he/she is assigned to. There are plenty of MUCH more experienced TI's that will likely not care though, so that videographer will still get the work. It all boils down to your own decisions in the end.You think you understand the situation, but what you don't understand, is that the situation just changed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 15 #25 May 13, 2010 On the UPT/RWS test you take for the rating it asks: 20. Who may do RW with a tandem pair? Which four instructions must you give the relative worker? 21. Which requirements must a photographer meet before he can film tandem?Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. 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MotherGoose 0 #19 May 11, 2010 My point ? I'm not making a point, I'm answering a question. Cphelan mentioned that the topic of currency had not come up. It is referred to clearly by UPT that you need to do a minimum of 100RW jumps EVERY year to stay current enough to fly tandem video. Beyond that, if you do 200 a year or 1000 a year, UPT doesn't care. Obviously the more you jump the better chance you have of being a good flyer, but from a legal and liability standpoint, you need to complete 100RW jumps every year to fly tandem video on Sigma. So, once you have completed a minimum of 500 RW jumps, 100 of which must be video jumps, you can fly video on a Sigma tandem as long as you stay current by a minimum of 100 relative work jumps every year. (TI or AFFI rating trumps the initial 500 RW jump minimum.)You think you understand the situation, but what you don't understand, is that the situation just changed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WatchYourStep 0 #20 May 11, 2010 Quote"QuoteQuote... Strong ... Do you have a link to some verbiage ? ....................................................................... The 2010 version of the Strong TICC exam sets a 300 jump minimum. Remember that is a MINIMUM. DZs can also set higher local standards. I remember one DZ, that had a surplus of AFF Is, so they set that as the minimum to video tandems. At Pitt Meadows, aspiring vidiots also need to show me samples of their video, and get briefed by me and the senior vidiot BEFORE they are allowed to chase tandems. Then they chase me a few times, before they are allowed to join the vidiot rotation. Rob Warner Strong Tandem Examiner Rob, can you give me a reference for that? I just can't find that anywhere. Just talked to Mike at Strong Enterprises, he has stated that Strong does NOT have a minimum number of jumps that they require before someone videos a tandem. Just trying to make sure we're all on the same page here. If that's the new rule I want to abide by it, but need to find it first. "You start off your skydiving career with a bag full of luck and an empty bag of experience. The trick is to fill the bag of experience up before your bag of luck runs out." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 558 #21 May 12, 2010 Strong Enterprises TICC Written Exam Doc. 580360 Rev. C 01/11/2010 page 11 Question 94 "The minimum recommended experience for flying video with tandem pairs is _____________ ..." The answer guide says: "300 jumps" Other tandem manufacturers have similar standards because they all started by copying Strong and are gradually converging - to reduce differences. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites WatchYourStep 0 #22 May 13, 2010 QuoteStrong Enterprises TICC Written Exam Doc. 580360 Rev. C 01/11/2010 page 11 Question 94 "The minimum recommended experience for flying video with tandem pairs is _____________ ..." The answer guide says: "300 jumps" Other tandem manufacturers have similar standards because they all started by copying Strong and are gradually converging - to reduce differences. Thanks Rob, I got confused in the semantics, but they do count..... That says Strong "recommends" which is a different from saying they "require" like UPT does. So Strong still leaves it up to the TI/DZO. Thanks "You start off your skydiving career with a bag full of luck and an empty bag of experience. The trick is to fill the bag of experience up before your bag of luck runs out." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NVizABull 0 #23 May 13, 2010 thanks guys, you all confirmed my opinion....i'm not a TI, but a rigger and with 14 yrs in the sport, have tried to be a safety conscious jumper....it irks me to see these people enter the sport and think they're special and don't consider the safety of others, just worried about what they get...and 200 jumps over the course of a couple years is not by any stretch putting you at an experience level to be flying video with tandems. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MotherGoose 0 #24 May 13, 2010 I'm not even sure most Sigma tandem schools even know of these restrictions. How many people read the whole manual ? This section wasn't even mentioned in my TI course. We all just kind of assume that the DZO/gear owner knows the rules and follows them. In the end though, the ultimate liability lies on the shoulders of the TI and for that reason, I will not break the rules that UPT has set forth. If there is a videographer on the rotation that does not meet the minimum requirements, I don't do the particular tandems that he/she is assigned to. There are plenty of MUCH more experienced TI's that will likely not care though, so that videographer will still get the work. It all boils down to your own decisions in the end.You think you understand the situation, but what you don't understand, is that the situation just changed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 15 #25 May 13, 2010 On the UPT/RWS test you take for the rating it asks: 20. Who may do RW with a tandem pair? Which four instructions must you give the relative worker? 21. Which requirements must a photographer meet before he can film tandem?Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
riggerrob 558 #21 May 12, 2010 Strong Enterprises TICC Written Exam Doc. 580360 Rev. C 01/11/2010 page 11 Question 94 "The minimum recommended experience for flying video with tandem pairs is _____________ ..." The answer guide says: "300 jumps" Other tandem manufacturers have similar standards because they all started by copying Strong and are gradually converging - to reduce differences. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WatchYourStep 0 #22 May 13, 2010 QuoteStrong Enterprises TICC Written Exam Doc. 580360 Rev. C 01/11/2010 page 11 Question 94 "The minimum recommended experience for flying video with tandem pairs is _____________ ..." The answer guide says: "300 jumps" Other tandem manufacturers have similar standards because they all started by copying Strong and are gradually converging - to reduce differences. Thanks Rob, I got confused in the semantics, but they do count..... That says Strong "recommends" which is a different from saying they "require" like UPT does. So Strong still leaves it up to the TI/DZO. Thanks "You start off your skydiving career with a bag full of luck and an empty bag of experience. The trick is to fill the bag of experience up before your bag of luck runs out." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NVizABull 0 #23 May 13, 2010 thanks guys, you all confirmed my opinion....i'm not a TI, but a rigger and with 14 yrs in the sport, have tried to be a safety conscious jumper....it irks me to see these people enter the sport and think they're special and don't consider the safety of others, just worried about what they get...and 200 jumps over the course of a couple years is not by any stretch putting you at an experience level to be flying video with tandems. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MotherGoose 0 #24 May 13, 2010 I'm not even sure most Sigma tandem schools even know of these restrictions. How many people read the whole manual ? This section wasn't even mentioned in my TI course. We all just kind of assume that the DZO/gear owner knows the rules and follows them. In the end though, the ultimate liability lies on the shoulders of the TI and for that reason, I will not break the rules that UPT has set forth. If there is a videographer on the rotation that does not meet the minimum requirements, I don't do the particular tandems that he/she is assigned to. There are plenty of MUCH more experienced TI's that will likely not care though, so that videographer will still get the work. It all boils down to your own decisions in the end.You think you understand the situation, but what you don't understand, is that the situation just changed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #25 May 13, 2010 On the UPT/RWS test you take for the rating it asks: 20. Who may do RW with a tandem pair? Which four instructions must you give the relative worker? 21. Which requirements must a photographer meet before he can film tandem?Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
