No backstrap on tandem student harness.

[Kimblair13 0]

Where I'm working we have student tandem harness's that don't have back-straps or belly-straps. Just imagine a Sigma harness without those and that's what it is. I don't care about the belly strap, but would feel way more comfortable if we had a back-strap.
If you were to explain to someone WHY you wanted those, what would you say?
Please nothing stupid, just what you would say and how you would justify why it's safer to have it.
Or if you don't think it matters explain that and why.

[tonyhays 86]

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Please nothing stupid, just what you would say and how you would justify why it's safer to have it.

You could argue statistics....with the older style harness, zero people have fallen out of them. With the new style, aka back-straps, two people have fallen out.

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”

[peek 20]

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Where I'm working we have student tandem harness's that don't have back-straps or belly-straps.

Could you supply some more information about that? What are you calling "back straps"? A picture would be helpful. What manufacturer?

[Kimblair13 0]

Omega Tandem from Firebird. Back strap as in the lower back strap on a Sigma harness.

[TheCaptain 2]

Hi Kim
Well, we all know the reason for the back strap so let’s see if I can verbalize it.
In the transition from belly to earth freefall to sitting in the harness under canopy, it is possible that a student’s legs can surpass 90 or more degrees making it a possibility that the student could then fall backwards out of the harness(
which has happened before). The back strap when properly adjusted keeps the student from being able to fall backwards out of the harness.

Kirk
He's dead Jim

[riggerrob 558]

Vector Tandem Student harnesses lacked horizontal back straps and belly bands.
The logic was that (hz and belly) bands were not needed as long as the rest of the straps were adjusted properly. That logic worked great for 20-plus years.
Students only started falling out of harnesses when exhausted, bored, complacent, etc. TIs started allowing students to board the airplane with slack harnesses.

Students are reassured when TIs say: "let me take one more look over your harness before we board the plane."

[chris74 0]

Hello Birds,
+1
No idiot-proof rigs available right now
Blue sky
Chris"TAZ"courtois

[MakeItHappen 15]

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Omega Tandem from Firebird. Back strap as in the lower back strap on a Sigma harness.

There is a picture in the manual.

I would put the harness on, have another TI adjust it properly on you and then proceed to 'fall out' through the back.
Of course, you do this on the ground to demonstrate the issue.

.

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[riggerrob 558]

Page 9 illustrates an instructor harness with a horizontal back strap.

But the Omega student harness lacks a horizontal back strap or belly band.
Whether we need student belly bands has been the source of lengthy debate.

[skydiveoc 0]

They're made in Europe where there are no obese people to fall out of harnesses.

[Liemberg 0]

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I would put the harness on, have another TI adjust it properly on you and then proceed to 'fall out' through the back.
Of course, you do this on the ground to demonstrate the issue.

.

And put the video on youtube....

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[BobMoore 0]

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... where there are no obese people to fall out of harnesses.

Oh, they're there. They are just encouraged to stay out of sight so they don't offend the general public.

"For you see, an airplane is an airplane. A landing area is a landing area. But a dropzone... a dropzone is the people."

[Kimblair13 0]

"They're made in Europe where there are no obese people to fall out of harnesses."

"Oh, they're there. They are just encouraged to stay out of sight so they don't offend the general public."

No they are definitely out and about. Free to roam as they please.

[toolbox 0]

Verbalized very well,but I'm more of a picture kinda guy.
A couple of years ago there were some real scary pictures goin around of poeple coming in to land with the leg straps aroun their calfs. I wonder if they knew how bad that could've been.Probably not,most students have not a clue and they trust the TI with their lives(Ignorance is bliss).By the way I like that rifle on your profile picture,can you get that chambered for 308 winchester.

[riggerrob 558]

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Verbalized very well,but I'm more of a picture kinda guy.
A couple of years ago there were some real scary pictures going around of people coming in to land with the leg straps around their calfs. ..."

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Some TIs teach students to slide leg straps forward (towards knees) - after opening - to ease discomfort and help them raise their feet for landing.
I used to teach that until I learned how to adjust Strong Student harnesses with hip rings ... similar to the technique for adjusting Sigma student harnesses. Since learning the new technique, I rarely have students not able to lift their feet for landing.

Rob Warner
Strong Tandem Examiner

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[toolbox 0]

I have over 9000 tandems and have jumped all the US made rigs.
I have never had one of my passengers even close to getting the leg straps below the knees.
In the pics I'm talking about,the passengers ass was hanging lower than their heels.
You could see that the harness was not placed and adjuusted properly.
The odds of someone squirtin out the back of the harness is greatly increased by improper placement of the hip junctions and legstraps, espescialy on more robust bodies,then add to that having certain things too loose(back strap).
I personaly do not like using a harness without a back strap,but I have used them since that was all we had at the time.
I think the present generations of harnesses utilizing back straps are definitely more comfortable(I've been on the front over 100 times) than say the old vector or strong harnesses(I know strong has always had a belly and back strap,but they still sucked ass),and when properly adjusted they do an excellent job of boxing your ass in. This aint rocket science.
But nothing is foolproof,especialy in skydiving.
I want to ride a goat through tiger country.

[toronto_bill 0]

I consider myself a relative newbie at a 1000+ tandems still...

my job is to tighten straps as much as possible evenly without getting a complaint.

All I seem to get is a few pukers (3) and a bunch of the flabby ones who complain about the harness under canopy and who can't adjust the leg straps.

by far the more popular question is "Is this too loose?" (main lift webs)

I have tried to hook legs back at deployment on the more pear shaped pax...to try an insure the legs cant go forward, but seriously wonder if I have the ability in a crazy hard opening.

all I got for now..

[toolbox 0]

I ankle lock the round ones on opening also.
The extremely pear shaped ones I've seen turned away from the DZ's I've been in recent years.