Tandem Lowers

[Rover 9]

Quote

The toggle hooking up is more of a concern. but my technique does not locate my toggles anywhere near the hips of the passenger. We fly only Icarus 330's for EVERYBODY, even up to 140kg (300lb's) passengers, so the toggles are only at around the customers shoulders when piloting the canopy.

It's great that you have a technique that makes you impervious to catching your toggles. Maybe you could enlighten us mere mortals to what it is. As an 'older' TI I'd appreciate the input. And in my opinion, if I met a TI who told me that he/she had taken a 140kg person for a tandem, I would quite happily tell them that they were a fucking idiot!

Don't let your ambitions get in the way of your abilities.

2 wrongs don't make a right - but 3 lefts do.

[rhys 0]

HA HA see how wound up people get when one person speaks the voice of the majority.

I have worked at plenty of dropzones. 'None' used
'only' the container manufactures recommended canopies, only one tandem master out of well over 100 that I am aware of reconnected the side attachments to the student harness, and most of the tandem masters (including myself at times) allowed themselves to parctice tecniques that they felt uncomfortable with, because they did not want to comprimise thier positions as tandem instructors at the said Dropzone.

If you read the forums here you would be lead to believe that every tandem instructor follows the rules 'by the book', but in reality only a small proportion does, and a small proportion of dropzones also.

There is an element of capitalism involed, when it comes to 'recommended canopies'. Of course strong will only reccomend thier own canopies, and UPT, thiers.

Set 400's and 3 sixty whatever they have decided on are shit canpoies that are more likely to hurt you and you passenger than 'non approved' canopies.

Sigma canopies are oversized stillettos that continue to turn after you stop giving them input, they whip around and IMHO are not good tandem canopies, many will disagree, but i'm not going to get into that right now.

the words of the day are "common sense".

If you are not in the United states it becomes the recommendations of the local paracchuting part 149 holder and their rules.

Try being honest with yourselves. If you do follow the rules 'by he book' i respect that but pity you, becasue IMHO you will never be able to fly a decent tandem canopy.

Quote

It's great that you have a technique that makes you impervious to catching your toggles. Maybe you could enlighten us mere mortals to what it is. As an 'older' TI I'd appreciate the input.

Easy, don't put your toggles where they can be caught on anything, as I said before, icarus 330's would be stalling if you put you toggles at the hips of the customer. I use handicam and are ussed to keeping the toggles in frron of me.

[tonyhays 86]

Quote

in my opinion, if I met a TI who told me that he/she had taken a 140kg person for a tandem, I would quite happily tell them that they were a fucking idiot!

I've taken a 6'8" 139 kg person on a tandem. Person was of course quite huge, but also proportional. Kind of like a walking tank. Freefall felt ballistic, but canopy ride was quite pleasant, even with a no wind on landing on a 330.

Quote

It's great that you have a technique that makes you impervious to catching your toggles. Maybe you could enlighten us mere mortals to what it is. As an 'older' TI I'd appreciate the input

I'd be more than happy to enlighten an 'older TI'. It's quite a easy technique, simply don't bring your toggles down that far when flying around!! Since when do we need to have the toggles down further than around your shoulders before landing??

Quote

Don't let your ambitions get in the way of your abilities

Don't allow your fears to rule your life!

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”

[rhys 0]

Quote

complacency
Main Entry: com·pla·cen·cy
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural com·pla·cen·cies
Date: 1650
1 : self-satisfaction especially when accompanied by unawareness of actual dangers or deficiencies
2 : an instance of complacency ...


...ShockedIt must be wonderful to know that because of your experience level, and it has never happened - It will never happen! Smile

My student will never slide out ahead of me on landing, because I fly a high speed tandem canopy and hook em in. I'm just that friggin good!

I will never have to cut away my main because it will never unexpectedly rip or anything like that, after all I did a thorough check. I'm just that friggin good!

My equipment manufacturer recommends leaving the lowers slackened. but connected. But that is for those other instructors who just aren't up to my caliber.
I'm just that friggin good!

Riddle me this rule boy;

If these high speed cool guy canopies are so....


...Wrong. And we should all follow the reccomendations of the manufacturers 'by the book'...

Why do the manufacturers themselves supply companies that quite obviously do in the numbers of over 10's of thousands of tandems per year...

...also knowing they use 'say' Icarus '280, 300 and 330' canopies or daedalus or jojo wing '285' cross braced tandem canopies, as well as 'say' Precision reserves?

Do you think the manufacturers stick to thier own recommendations?? Or would they rather sell another million dollars worth of containers?

If there was that much to worry about why would they do that??

Quote

I now relaese them and connect them to the harness,on front with /sigma and the back with Strong after a complete canopy control check including a couple of hard turns and full flairs. It allows me to get my knees and feet well up and outside the passengers body for landing allowing me to protect my body and theirs during difficult landings.

As for canopy wraps I will avoid them at all cost but am aware of and prepared to control my passengers body at all times.

I saw BoB Holler flip a passenger threw the harness with the lowers attached in Tallahassee when I had 60 or so tandems.

By the way I have 4372 tandems and 0 injuries to speak of. I think some of that is related to mobility during landing. My rule is dont flip over the student on landing and I slide more than I stand."

I appreciate the lesson, but I have yet to even break a nail on a student (touch wood!) myself and my 'customers' all have a great time.

I only stand landings that are 'standable' but a high proportion of them are.

I don't mind sitting and will if I have any doubt that I cannot stand safely.

I don't want to drift the thread, but wanted to at least address a couple of the concerns in your 'rant'.

Quote

I will never have to cut away my main because it will never unexpectedly rip or anything like that, after all I did a thorough check. I'm just that friggin good!

WTF, what are you on pal! You assume I don't check my equipment and we have substandard gear?!!?!? How can you imply such bullshit based on your own warped version of how we operate.

It seems you think I have an ego or something?

I marely speak my mind and am honest with myself.

I don't know which utopia dropzone you work at, but if everybody is the same as you i bet it is a small dropzone?

toodleloo

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

Sigma canopies are oversized stillettos

Actually, I think they're the same airfoil as a Vengence, with out the airlocks of course (which would make a windy day's tandem landing really sporty).

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[deadwood 0]

(If you think connecting your lowers is going to help you when you;

1, are cut off.
2, make a mistake on landing.
3, are thumped in, by turbulance.

You sould reconsider being a TI.)

After a bad experience (the aforementioned hinge problem) with a turbulent landing with the lowers disconnected, I now always keep them connected. In some circumstances, they won't help. In some they might. I keep them connected for the “might” help situations.

There have been several reasons given in this thread for keeping them connected.

What are the safety reasons for leaving them unhooked?

He who hesitates shall inherit the earth.

Deadwood
Skydive New Mexico Motorcycle Club, Touring Division

[skyjump122 0]

No haven't got one of the new ones yet. Mostly jump 400's and one 360. I'd like to try a demo 366.

Youv'e got 54 lbs. of gear on your back - 160 lbs. of stupid on the front - 5 handles all in the wrong place - And a pilot chute in tow - What could possibly go wrong?

[TaylorC 0]

Quote

No haven't got one of the new ones yet. Mostly jump 400's and one 360. I'd like to try a demo 366.

[douwanto 22]

Quote

complacency
Main Entry: com·pla·cen·cy
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural com·pla·cen·cies
Date: 1650
1 : self-satisfaction especially when accompanied by unawareness of actual dangers or deficiencies
2 : an instance of complacency
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"I was taught to loosen the laterals and reconnect them. I teach loosen the laterals and reconnect them.

That said after seeing more than a few TI's struggle on landing because of the restricted lower body movement I now relaese them and connect them to the harness,on front with /sigma and the back with Strong after a complete canopy control check including a couple of hard turns and full flairs. It allows me to get my knees and feet well up and outside the passengers body for landing allowing me to protect my body and theirs during difficult landings.

As for canopy wraps I will avoid them at all cost but am aware of and prepared to control my passengers body at all times.

I saw BoB Holler flip a passenger threw the harness with the lowers attached in Tallahassee when I had 60 or so tandems.

By the way I have 4372 tandems and 0 injuries to speak of. I think some of that is related to mobility during landing. My rule is dont flip over the student on landing and I slide more than I stand."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Quote

It must be wonderful to know that because of your experience level, and it has never happened - It will never happen!

PLease show me where I said any thing of the sort.
A question was asked and I answered. Giving my experiences and practices.

I don't have any concern for you or your high minded interjection on this subject.

What I do have is practical experience and 100% concern for my students safety and well being. My biggest concern on every tandem is that I might some how fail in my responsibility to protect my student at any cost.

Quote

My student will never slide out ahead of me on landing, because I fly a high speed tandem canopy and hook em in. I'm just that friggin good!

These again are your words not mine. It is amazing how you seem to think you have the answers but offer nothing but rhetorical BS to I assume make yourself feel enlightened and important??????



I have never had a student slide out in front of me on landing. Maybe you should have slid those in????If we are both sitting I don't see that happening but you seem to know so much more about it please let me know the details.

Quote

I will never have to cut away my main because it will never unexpectedly rip or anything like that, after all I did a thorough check. I'm just that friggin good!

Again your words not mine. I am not awair of 1 single instance of a canopy spontaneously ripping after stable flight and control ability checks. That does not mean it wont happen and as I said I am ready to control my students body at any time for any reason.
I am amazed that you unhooked the laterals loosened them and re hooked them before you did a control check to realize you had a problem with your canopy. I guess you were lucky you hooked the laterals back up.

Quote

My equipment manufacturer recommends leaving the lowers slackened. but connected. But that is for those other instructors who just aren't up to my caliber.
I'm just that friggin good!

Again your words. The truth is I was taught to release the laterals, loosen them and reattach them. I was also told it was my choice once I was comfortable to attach them to the front if I chose to but never leave them hanging. My TE did not re attach them to the rings or the harness.

Quote

On a sit or buttslide landing if your feet and knees are up high on the sides to protect them, is their ass the first point of contact? I tend to absorb the landing with my heels. But even in a perfect landing if a foot catches a rut or soft spot, the student can continue to slide out ahead of me. This is one of many ways a hinge point at the shoulders becomes a real possibility. If the side connectors are fully let out they do not severly limit your movement, but they do prevent hinging at the shoulders.

If you don't know how having my feet and knee's outside and up enhance my ability to control landings then you may need more experience before you open your mouth and share your ignorance.

There was no lesson in my first post but here is one for you.

I place my feet and legs well outside my students and have plenty of mobility for controlling the moment of touchdown with my feet. Maybe your students are too low in their harness??? I chose to slide in most of my landings because I tend to jump in gusty locations and I can take the impact better when I get dropped out if my student has their feet up and out of harms way. I would much rather have no connection at my waist if my foot caught a hole or hill or anything else. folding 2 bodies in half and all that pressure on a leg could be and has been really bad when those body's were restricted at the waist.

Quote

I thought the scary part was that some weren't aware of the potential danger of leaving the lowers disconnected.
The truly scary part is that some are making a decision to knowingly disregard the manufacturers recommendations.
Do you think manufacturers gather injury and fatality details for no reason?
They evaluate the situation that resulted in an accident, and make recommendations to prevent them in the future.

If you do hurt a student in any way, and find yourself in court - do you want a video showing the lowers disconnected out there? Even if it is totally unrelated, it could be evidence of not following procedures. Families and friends carry camcorders, and the one part they do get on video is the landing.

The manufacturers of tandem equipment recommend loosening, but not disconnecting from the connecting rings. If you must be disconnect to loosen them, they must be reconnected to the rings.
If you think there is a valid reason for not doing so, I suggest you contact the manufacturer of your respective equipment.

The scary thing is thinking because you fallow the recommended guidelines you know what you are doing. I know IT can happen to me and I make choices every day toward preventing IT. What ever IT is I hope to be prepared. Through instruction and personal experience we all make decisions that affect outcomes not yet known. I know why I do what I do. Why do you do what you do??????

go be mad at something else for a while

Chris

Uncle/GrandPapa Whit
Unico Rodriguez # 245
Muff Brother # 2421

[rhys 0]

Quote

There have been several reasons given in this thread for keeping them connected.

What are the safety reasons for leaving them unhooked?

I don't believe it should be an issue, the hinging thing you mention is not IMHO a problem. I lean back on all my landings as I flare so my customer is essentially on top of me, I slide myself underneath them on landing and this action coupled with a smooth surface and a well timed and executed approach and flare often results in a nice stand up landing.

You can be as likely to hurt yourself and your customer if you are attached or not, your actions and the situation can vary immensly. Just try to avoid being in a 'Thumping In' situation.

Competence is a major contributing factor!

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[rhys 0]

Quote

No haven't got one of the new ones yet. Mostly jump 400's and one 360. I'd like to try a demo 366.

I wouldn't bother, i demoed one for 15 consecutive jumps and found the flight and stall charachtaristics to be less than average.

The lack of cross ports and a poor design makes the corners of the nose fold under while spiraling hard and the stall point is much sooner than what other canpies flare point is.

Did I mention the hard openings?

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[deadwood 0]

As I said, I had one bad landing experience many years ago with the lowers disconnected. We hit some nasty sink and turbulence outside the target at about 100 ft. We hit hard with some side motion and rolled. We ended up with our feet pointing away from each other and a 180-degree twist at the upper connectors, twisting my passenger’s harness at her shoulders. This could have easily resulted in some neck and shoulder injuries for her. Had the lowers been connected the separation and twist would not have occurred and I could have better protected her with my body during the landing. Fortunately, there were no injuries.

The purpose of this forum is to have an exchange of information. We can see what problems and issues others have had and hopefully learn by them.

So this is an experience I had and the reason I have the lowers connected for landing. Everyone else can take it or leave it. If you are sure it will never happen to you, good for you. But if it does, don’t say you never heard of it being a problem.

I have yet to hear a reason for leaving them disconnected that results in a significant improvement in safety.

He who hesitates shall inherit the earth.

Deadwood
Skydive New Mexico Motorcycle Club, Touring Division

[skydog 2]

I really love sanctimonious people........especially this time of year.

In my early tandems I had some horrible landings, with the lowers connected, one ended up with me pivoting round, pulling the student round and me landing on top. If they weren't on it probably wouldn't have gone that way. Go figure!!

In the next 3500 tandems have been in all sorts of conditions and all sorts of students and, touchwood, haven't injured one as yet. Why? simple, have improved my landing technique to overcome the vagaries of weather and student. Can't say it will never happen just that I am more aware and more technique orientated, rather than smashing them in regardless............

Merry Christmas....

Journey not destination.....

[rhys 0]

Quote

In my early tandems I had some horrible landings, with the lowers connected, one ended up with me pivoting round, pulling the student round and me landing on top. If they weren't on it probably wouldn't have gone that way. Go figure!!

In the next 3500 tandems have been in all sorts of conditions and all sorts of students and, touchwood, haven't injured one as yet. Why? simple, have improved my landing technique to overcome the vagaries of weather and student. Can't say it will never happen just that I am more aware and more technique orientated, rather than smashing them in regardless............

Merry Christmas....

I couldn't agree more.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[douwanto 22]

Very well said Skydog........ Some people do things because they are told to and that is great when learning but at some point they need to be able to justify continuing those practices. Experience creates understanding and improvement in procedures both overall and personnel. Well for some and others will be drones their whole life doing what they were shown and never improving or adjusting their approach for varying conditions and situations.

I have seen more injuries on landing because the laterals were attached than not and it only takes a little tension in the wrong direction to cause injury.

It almost seems like some are saying if they have the laterals connected nothing will happen to them or their passenger on landing.

When rotters or winds cause sudden and sever drops on landing having the most mobility gives me more options and control.

Uncle/GrandPapa Whit
Unico Rodriguez # 245
Muff Brother # 2421

[deadwood 0]

I say again.

I have yet to hear a reason for leaving them disconnected that results in a significant improvement in safety.

He who hesitates shall inherit the earth.

Deadwood
Skydive New Mexico Motorcycle Club, Touring Division

[skydived19006 4]

Quote

I say again.

I have yet to hear a reason for leaving them disconnected that results in a significant improvement in safety.

Most of what we do every day does not "result in a significant improvement in safety." If that's the litmus test, then why do we let video fliers near a tandem. Put every thing we do to that test, and we lay in bed until we die. If I take a shower I could slip fall out, hit my head on the toilet and be found dead with my junk in my hand. Should have simply stayed in bed.

Merry Christmas.

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[douwanto 22]

There is a much greater chance of the lowers b3ing attached on landing causing injury than this high pivot point causing injury due to canopy collision, bouncing over the tandem on landing or any other scenario that has been played out on this thread.

The reason the laterals are unhooked in the first place is so they can be stretched all the way out to give maximum agility at landing time. I see no diferance in hooking them to the student harness as far as time and effort and there they will restrict the instructor even less during landing.

Would this prevent enough injuries to justify the practice? I can say from my experience it does maybe not from yours. That is why we make our own choices concerning these type decisions.

I think this is far less of a concern than lets say TI's leaving the laterals too loose during exit and freefall where they have a specific purpose and not some perceived one. I see way to many TI's who dont quite get the concept of side-spin phenomenon or they just dont think it can happen to them.

Uncle/GrandPapa Whit
Unico Rodriguez # 245
Muff Brother # 2421

[rhys 0]

Quote

I think this is far less of a concern than lets say TI's leaving the laterals too loose during exit and freefall where they have a specific purpose and not some perceived one.

Exactly, they're designed to attach the student to the instuctor/parachute system during freefall, after which their existence is a mere hinderence.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[deadwood 0]

What is the position of all the various manufacturers of leaving them unhooked for landing?

He who hesitates shall inherit the earth.

Deadwood
Skydive New Mexico Motorcycle Club, Touring Division

[skydog 2]

You keep banging on about "no significant improvement in safety" with them off............but how are they "safer" with them on?

All I can say is in the 3500 tandems (750 this year) that the landing incidents, where I was more likely to injure the student, were with the lowers attached. Have had similar circumstances without them attached and the outcome wasn't nearly as "rough" but hey.........

Journey not destination.....

[Liemberg 0]

Quote

I have yet to hear a reason for leaving them disconnected that results in a significant improvement in safety.

When you land with some forward speed or unexpected (rotor) sideway motion, a long-legged passenger or one that is rather low in front of you, can stick his or her foot in the ground before she or he is supposed to even touch the ground. Usually you can save the day by "rolling aside" of them IF you have maximum freedom of movement.

Joined at the hips, even with the laterals completely extended, your freedom to "roll aside" is very much restricted and the same move that would save the day during one 'less elegant' landing now can fracture the foot, ankle, knee or hip of the person in front of you.

Stuffing them out of the way - not immediately after opening but below the hard deck for a cutaway is my plan of action.

Being 100% sure about your main canopy and not letting those hooks tangle with toggles is a prerequisite, of course...

Relatives of tandem students that show video-footage of my lack-of-respect-for-the-rules? We'll cross that bridge when we get there. But it helps being Dutch and operating in Holland.

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[douwanto 22]

Very well putt.


Also I know 2 ex TI's who will never walk the same because students stepped on their ankle during landing. I was present for one and it was nasty and directly related to not being able to step aside from the students feet. The laterals were pulling him hip to hip right into the incident.

I do not leave my laterals loose I connect them to the passenger harness it takes a little getting used to on the sigma but once my hands were familiar with the plastic clip on the front it became simple.

Uncle/GrandPapa Whit
Unico Rodriguez # 245
Muff Brother # 2421

[riggerrob 558]

"... The lack of cross ports and a poor design makes the corners of the nose fold under while spiraling hard ... "

........................................................................

That only happens when lines get too old.

By the time that outboard A lines have shrunk more than four inches (compared with center A lines), SET 400s are due for re-line.

[riggerrob 558]

Quote

What is the position of all the various manufacturers of leaving them unhooked for landing?

.....................................................................

Strong Enterprises recommends loosening laterals, but leaving them connected for landing.

Rob Warner
Strong Tandem Examiner