skydived19006 4 #26 September 18, 2009 QuoteQuote "Similarly, having to survive one reserve ride on your own also demonstrates solo survival skills." When I took my course I was never asked about a reserve ride and never saw it listed as a requirement either. I have not gone back looked but I do not think it is a requirement anymore at least for UPT. let me know if I'm wrong ( I have had 3 reserve rides prior to my rating.) ......................................................................... One solo reserve ride is a pre-level for aspiring Strong TIs. The goal is for aspiring TIS to prove that they can keep their cool and perform the correct drills while in a stressful situation, before being trusted with the lives of students. You are correct in stating that it is not a pre-level for UPT, but it should be. UPT and Strong are slowly converging with their tandem training programs. At the time I received my Tandem I, having a cut away was required. How is the Strong requirement written? I had released a round main with capewells on a tritary rig for my compliance. Releasing a main on a tritary rig is not the same thing as dealing with an real malfunction. A tritary cut away just about has to work to satisfy the requirement. Otherwise, what are you going to do, have someone make your gear malfunction on a random jump? Hey, that sounds like fun. You will have a malfunction on one of your next 15 jumps, be ready Dude!Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 261 #27 September 18, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuote Releasing a main on a tritary rig is not the same thing as dealing with an real malfunction. A tritary cut away just about has to work to satisfy the requirement. Yeah it is almost more an exercise in rigging. One might learn enough by taking up a medium sized canopy, popping one toggle after opening, getting comfortable with handles touches while it accelerates into a spiral, and getting on toggle or riser to stop the spiral. That won't help with the "back in freefall part", but will help with the "oh my god everything is spinning" part. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 558 #28 September 18, 2009 Strong says that aspiring TIs must have one reserve ride before the start of the course. Cypres fires don't count. If they have already suffered a main malfunction - followed by pulling the cutaway and reserve ripcord handles in the correct sequence - GREAT! If not they must do an intentional cutaway with a spare reserve strapped to their chest. I don't see how intentional cutaways - with Capewell - are relevant to modern skydiving equipment. I would have loaned you a modern skydiving rig (with a big reserve) and strapped a round reserve to your chest. Similarly, Strong Enterprises has a three canopy, piggyback rig that they rent out for intentional cutaways. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydived19006 4 #29 September 18, 2009 Quote Similarly, Strong Enterprises has a three canopy, piggyback rig that they rent out for intentional cutaways. That sounds like fun! I assume that only one reserve needs to be certified? As in we repack the piggy back reserve, and go have fun maintaining the FAA certified repack on the belly wart. Releasing Capwells or shot-&-halfs or whatever that rig has on it may not be relevant to modern skydiving equipment, but I guarantee that it is more intimidating than simply pulling the little silver. handle. You can either attempt to release both simultaneously, or release one riser while holding it with the other hand, then release the second riser, either hanging onto the first letting the canopy streamer, or just let it all go. For fun, I posted a picture of the rig (not me) putting the first main out. MartinExperience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bill6870 3 #30 September 18, 2009 It's a modified tandem rig with all three canopies on your back. The emergency handles for the first main are an outboard pull just like the tandem rigs. The handles for the second main are just like a sport rig. And yes Martin it was fun. Blue Skies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites proskydiverorg 0 #31 September 20, 2009 I broke my own leg using this technique. My passenger was saved. I try to slid in every time but if I think its going to be hard I put my feet down and take the hit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 558 #32 September 20, 2009 QuoteI broke my own leg using this technique. My passenger was saved. I try to slide in every time but if I think its going to be hard I put my feet down and take the hit. ....................................................................... Similarly, last week I was trying to do a slide landing with an 89 year old student. He dug in his heels and tried to flip onto his face, but I changed it to sliding on my left thigh. Video footage of our landing aired on BCTV. It was great publicity for the DZ, but I bruised my left hamstring muscle, AGAIN. The same muscle damaged in a plane crash last year. I have not walked straight this past week and I doubt if DZ management know that I "took the hit" to keep the student's face out of the dirt. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 0 #33 September 21, 2009 Quote For fun, I posted a picture of the rig (not me) putting the first main out. Nice pic. Next time, tell the jumper that "pull" is supposed to come after "exit". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydived19006 4 #34 September 21, 2009 Quote Quote For fun, I posted a picture of the rig (not me) putting the first main out. Nice pic. Next time, tell the jumper that "pull" is supposed to come after "exit". I'm in Kansas, Adam is in South Texas. That rig seemed to have disappeared right around the time Adam left Kansas. Damn if it didn't show up in a picture on the SD San Marcos web site. Coincidence? So, I doubt that I'll be telling Adam much of anything about his jumping. MartinExperience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites livendive 8 #35 September 23, 2009 This is a good thread, and I'm pleasantly surprised to see so many participants, given the way mistakes typically get shushed in this industry. We can't learn from others if the stories aren't told, yet that seems to be the standard due to fears about losing ratings. A little over 9 years ago, my left shoulder dislocated as I reached back to pull. One auxiliary drogue release later, I found a popped right toggle on an old 500 (my only popped toggle in a few hundred jumps on canopies with riser stowed brakes). It took me a revolution or two to get left toggle unstowed with my right hand and point us at the dz. Due to the toggle pressure of those canopies, and my student’s size (~140 lbs), I didn’t think he’d be able to flare the whole thing on his own, so I gave him the primaries and took the flare toggles in my right hand, figuring getting the flares to the bottom of my sternum while he fully flared the primaries would have to suffice. I called for the flare a little high, thinking I’d likely have to go into drill sergeant mode to get a full flare. I was wrong; he buried them immediately, bringing us to a somewhat yawing stop around 20’ up. Then he let them up and we crashed pretty hard (with the lower connections still fully tightened). He seemed ok at the time, but went to the hospital for x-rays that night that revealed a compressed vertebra in his neck. I felt terrible. Thankfully, that's the only student I've injured. I went and had a couple surgeries on the shoulder to ensure it would never happen again, and it hasn't since 2001. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites normiss 620 #36 September 24, 2009 Your socks with sandals not withstanding, you're pretty ok. I have noticed a few folks do seem hesitant to discuss this publicly. I know a number of other TI's with significantly worse "odds" or "numbers" on injuries...but it bothered me. It gave me something to fix. This past weekend I only had two butt landings, one of which was due to passing through another tandem canopy's burble at about 10 ft...the other was just a big dude. I am very hesitant to let a student help with flaring...anybody else? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bclark 0 #37 September 24, 2009 QuoteI am very hesitant to let a student help with flaring...anybody else? This opens up a whole different can... BUT. Roughly 5000 of my 6000 of tandems have had toggles on landing. The injury I spoke of earlier is the only one in my career. Don't feel like the student having toggles had anything to do with it. (That brings us into another hot debate, the whole meat hauler vs. tandem instructor debate.) I think a good Instructor should be able to teach most students to assist with canopy control all the way to landing. Not taking anything away from the other camp, who may work in an environment where student participation is discouraged. Like anything, it takes practice. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites douwanto 22 #38 September 24, 2009 Allowing 1st time tandems help flair?? I think of Jack Hammer when I see this discussion. Big guy who works out regularly always let his students help land ended up with a broken back. I think he is at the farm now. I would like to hear his thoughts on this. Uncle/GrandPapa Whit Unico Rodriguez # 245 Muff Brother # 2421 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites popsjumper 2 #39 September 24, 2009 Whit, I'll tell him you are asking.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites feuergnom 22 #40 September 24, 2009 QuoteAllowing 1st time tandems help flair?? it's flare for spelling nazi's sake, ok! besides that: this has been discussed in here several times, as stated, there are two camps defending positions, i belong to the one letting passengers/students participate in the flying and landing of the tandem. not problems and injuries so far (but what do I know with my low numbers anyway...)The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle dudeist skydiver # 666 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pchapman 261 #41 September 24, 2009 Quote I am very hesitant to let a student help with flaring...anybody else? As has been said, there are two camps in the reply to that. Something not always mentioned in those discussions is the type of parachute. It seems pretty normal for me to have a student assist with the flare under a Sigma, with high toggle pressure, but I'm more careful about selecting the students when under a light toggle pressure Precision / Icarus. Toggle pressure affects "how much damage" the student can do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites livendive 8 #42 September 24, 2009 I only jump Icarus/Precision canopies now, and student's hands are out of the toggles by 1500' except on progression jumps (which I haven't done in a couple years). I've had students help me land a couple hundred tandems (500s, 425s, & 384s), and for first-time jumpers, I think the risks of doing so outweigh the potential rewards. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites normiss 620 #43 September 24, 2009 After trying a number of them I decided it wasn't worth the risk. I don't think many students have the coordination to do this. Most of them wanted to flare all the way at the same time they lifted their legs. Set 400's mostly. 366's when I'm lucky. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhys 0 #44 September 24, 2009 QuoteAfter trying a number of them I decided it wasn't worth the risk. I don't think many students have the coordination to do this. Most of them wanted to flare all the way at the same time they lifted their legs. Set 400's mostly. 366's when I'm lucky. i wouldn't with those parachutes either, they are pretty onforgiving as they flare like a sheet of plywood."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites normiss 620 #45 September 24, 2009 no kidding.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites HUSHPUPPY 0 #46 September 24, 2009 Several years ago after I had recently attained my TI (about 120 tandem jumps total) I had a middle age woman about 200lb making a tandem to the FloraBama (beach landing). Winds were out of the north east which will set you up for turbulence off the condo's and landing into rising terrain. The conditions created a weak flare and she put her feet down just as we were about 10ft from the ground and the landing was instant stop into the sand and flip to the right onto our side. She required EMS transport and had a broken right hip. I felt horrible about the outcome and I have since learned much more useful techniques for tandem landings at the beach. "You made my panties wet!" Skymama (Fitz 09) "Never argue with an idiot. They will bring you down to their level and beat you with experience." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SuperNerd1988 0 #47 September 25, 2009 I'm not a TI but I think its worth sharing an incident that happened over the summer. I was not on this load, but saw the aftermath on the ground. I picked up everything else by talking the instructor and the pilot. There was no video on this jump. My home DZ uses 185s and as the student got out onto the step, her foot slid in front of and below it. The instructor was not aware of this and exited, causing her ankle and foot to be raked on the step as they fell below and behind the aircraft. The force on the step as her ankle went across the front of it was enough to yaw the aircraft hard to that side. Interestingly enough, she was not in pain during free fall but only felt it after opening. Once they were down she was transported to the hospital with a huge, deep gash in her ankle but nothing was broken. I guess the lesson to be learned from this is to make sure the student is in the proper position for exit. Practice on the ground fully hooked up would probably help the student understand exactly what he or she needs to do to make it a smooth exit and a good skydive. I'm sorry if my post here is out of place, but I wanted to make people aware of this so it doesn't happen to someone else. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites faulknerwn 36 #48 September 25, 2009 And if you're doing video - watch for that stuff. I was doing video out of a 182 this summer. The TM was taking someone "older" - I forget how old. When he got his feet out one went in front of the step instead of behind it. I started frantically point it out to the TM because I didn't want her to leave and him break a leg. Between the 2 of us we finally got him in the right position and went on for an uneventful skydive. If I hadn't spotted it, he might have been injured because she couldn't see his leg. Its funny - he knew his leg was in the wrong spot but it was too windy for him to move it he said! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 558 #49 September 26, 2009 If students are heavy, I prefer them to put their feet on the step. With light-weight Japanese girls, I don't care as long as their feet are down-wind (aft) of the step. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites douwanto 22 #50 September 26, 2009 I have found no matter how big they are feet on the step gives them that last moment of security. When their feet dangle they can feel out of control before the exit. JM2C Uncle/GrandPapa Whit Unico Rodriguez # 245 Muff Brother # 2421 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 2 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. 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riggerrob 558 #28 September 18, 2009 Strong says that aspiring TIs must have one reserve ride before the start of the course. Cypres fires don't count. If they have already suffered a main malfunction - followed by pulling the cutaway and reserve ripcord handles in the correct sequence - GREAT! If not they must do an intentional cutaway with a spare reserve strapped to their chest. I don't see how intentional cutaways - with Capewell - are relevant to modern skydiving equipment. I would have loaned you a modern skydiving rig (with a big reserve) and strapped a round reserve to your chest. Similarly, Strong Enterprises has a three canopy, piggyback rig that they rent out for intentional cutaways. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydived19006 4 #29 September 18, 2009 Quote Similarly, Strong Enterprises has a three canopy, piggyback rig that they rent out for intentional cutaways. That sounds like fun! I assume that only one reserve needs to be certified? As in we repack the piggy back reserve, and go have fun maintaining the FAA certified repack on the belly wart. Releasing Capwells or shot-&-halfs or whatever that rig has on it may not be relevant to modern skydiving equipment, but I guarantee that it is more intimidating than simply pulling the little silver. handle. You can either attempt to release both simultaneously, or release one riser while holding it with the other hand, then release the second riser, either hanging onto the first letting the canopy streamer, or just let it all go. For fun, I posted a picture of the rig (not me) putting the first main out. MartinExperience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bill6870 3 #30 September 18, 2009 It's a modified tandem rig with all three canopies on your back. The emergency handles for the first main are an outboard pull just like the tandem rigs. The handles for the second main are just like a sport rig. And yes Martin it was fun. Blue Skies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
proskydiverorg 0 #31 September 20, 2009 I broke my own leg using this technique. My passenger was saved. I try to slid in every time but if I think its going to be hard I put my feet down and take the hit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #32 September 20, 2009 QuoteI broke my own leg using this technique. My passenger was saved. I try to slide in every time but if I think its going to be hard I put my feet down and take the hit. ....................................................................... Similarly, last week I was trying to do a slide landing with an 89 year old student. He dug in his heels and tried to flip onto his face, but I changed it to sliding on my left thigh. Video footage of our landing aired on BCTV. It was great publicity for the DZ, but I bruised my left hamstring muscle, AGAIN. The same muscle damaged in a plane crash last year. I have not walked straight this past week and I doubt if DZ management know that I "took the hit" to keep the student's face out of the dirt. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #33 September 21, 2009 Quote For fun, I posted a picture of the rig (not me) putting the first main out. Nice pic. Next time, tell the jumper that "pull" is supposed to come after "exit". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydived19006 4 #34 September 21, 2009 Quote Quote For fun, I posted a picture of the rig (not me) putting the first main out. Nice pic. Next time, tell the jumper that "pull" is supposed to come after "exit". I'm in Kansas, Adam is in South Texas. That rig seemed to have disappeared right around the time Adam left Kansas. Damn if it didn't show up in a picture on the SD San Marcos web site. Coincidence? So, I doubt that I'll be telling Adam much of anything about his jumping. MartinExperience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else. AC DZ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #35 September 23, 2009 This is a good thread, and I'm pleasantly surprised to see so many participants, given the way mistakes typically get shushed in this industry. We can't learn from others if the stories aren't told, yet that seems to be the standard due to fears about losing ratings. A little over 9 years ago, my left shoulder dislocated as I reached back to pull. One auxiliary drogue release later, I found a popped right toggle on an old 500 (my only popped toggle in a few hundred jumps on canopies with riser stowed brakes). It took me a revolution or two to get left toggle unstowed with my right hand and point us at the dz. Due to the toggle pressure of those canopies, and my student’s size (~140 lbs), I didn’t think he’d be able to flare the whole thing on his own, so I gave him the primaries and took the flare toggles in my right hand, figuring getting the flares to the bottom of my sternum while he fully flared the primaries would have to suffice. I called for the flare a little high, thinking I’d likely have to go into drill sergeant mode to get a full flare. I was wrong; he buried them immediately, bringing us to a somewhat yawing stop around 20’ up. Then he let them up and we crashed pretty hard (with the lower connections still fully tightened). He seemed ok at the time, but went to the hospital for x-rays that night that revealed a compressed vertebra in his neck. I felt terrible. Thankfully, that's the only student I've injured. I went and had a couple surgeries on the shoulder to ensure it would never happen again, and it hasn't since 2001. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 620 #36 September 24, 2009 Your socks with sandals not withstanding, you're pretty ok. I have noticed a few folks do seem hesitant to discuss this publicly. I know a number of other TI's with significantly worse "odds" or "numbers" on injuries...but it bothered me. It gave me something to fix. This past weekend I only had two butt landings, one of which was due to passing through another tandem canopy's burble at about 10 ft...the other was just a big dude. I am very hesitant to let a student help with flaring...anybody else? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bclark 0 #37 September 24, 2009 QuoteI am very hesitant to let a student help with flaring...anybody else? This opens up a whole different can... BUT. Roughly 5000 of my 6000 of tandems have had toggles on landing. The injury I spoke of earlier is the only one in my career. Don't feel like the student having toggles had anything to do with it. (That brings us into another hot debate, the whole meat hauler vs. tandem instructor debate.) I think a good Instructor should be able to teach most students to assist with canopy control all the way to landing. Not taking anything away from the other camp, who may work in an environment where student participation is discouraged. Like anything, it takes practice. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
douwanto 22 #38 September 24, 2009 Allowing 1st time tandems help flair?? I think of Jack Hammer when I see this discussion. Big guy who works out regularly always let his students help land ended up with a broken back. I think he is at the farm now. I would like to hear his thoughts on this. Uncle/GrandPapa Whit Unico Rodriguez # 245 Muff Brother # 2421 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #39 September 24, 2009 Whit, I'll tell him you are asking.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
feuergnom 22 #40 September 24, 2009 QuoteAllowing 1st time tandems help flair?? it's flare for spelling nazi's sake, ok! besides that: this has been discussed in here several times, as stated, there are two camps defending positions, i belong to the one letting passengers/students participate in the flying and landing of the tandem. not problems and injuries so far (but what do I know with my low numbers anyway...)The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle dudeist skydiver # 666 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 261 #41 September 24, 2009 Quote I am very hesitant to let a student help with flaring...anybody else? As has been said, there are two camps in the reply to that. Something not always mentioned in those discussions is the type of parachute. It seems pretty normal for me to have a student assist with the flare under a Sigma, with high toggle pressure, but I'm more careful about selecting the students when under a light toggle pressure Precision / Icarus. Toggle pressure affects "how much damage" the student can do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #42 September 24, 2009 I only jump Icarus/Precision canopies now, and student's hands are out of the toggles by 1500' except on progression jumps (which I haven't done in a couple years). I've had students help me land a couple hundred tandems (500s, 425s, & 384s), and for first-time jumpers, I think the risks of doing so outweigh the potential rewards. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 620 #43 September 24, 2009 After trying a number of them I decided it wasn't worth the risk. I don't think many students have the coordination to do this. Most of them wanted to flare all the way at the same time they lifted their legs. Set 400's mostly. 366's when I'm lucky. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #44 September 24, 2009 QuoteAfter trying a number of them I decided it wasn't worth the risk. I don't think many students have the coordination to do this. Most of them wanted to flare all the way at the same time they lifted their legs. Set 400's mostly. 366's when I'm lucky. i wouldn't with those parachutes either, they are pretty onforgiving as they flare like a sheet of plywood."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 620 #45 September 24, 2009 no kidding.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HUSHPUPPY 0 #46 September 24, 2009 Several years ago after I had recently attained my TI (about 120 tandem jumps total) I had a middle age woman about 200lb making a tandem to the FloraBama (beach landing). Winds were out of the north east which will set you up for turbulence off the condo's and landing into rising terrain. The conditions created a weak flare and she put her feet down just as we were about 10ft from the ground and the landing was instant stop into the sand and flip to the right onto our side. She required EMS transport and had a broken right hip. I felt horrible about the outcome and I have since learned much more useful techniques for tandem landings at the beach. "You made my panties wet!" Skymama (Fitz 09) "Never argue with an idiot. They will bring you down to their level and beat you with experience." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperNerd1988 0 #47 September 25, 2009 I'm not a TI but I think its worth sharing an incident that happened over the summer. I was not on this load, but saw the aftermath on the ground. I picked up everything else by talking the instructor and the pilot. There was no video on this jump. My home DZ uses 185s and as the student got out onto the step, her foot slid in front of and below it. The instructor was not aware of this and exited, causing her ankle and foot to be raked on the step as they fell below and behind the aircraft. The force on the step as her ankle went across the front of it was enough to yaw the aircraft hard to that side. Interestingly enough, she was not in pain during free fall but only felt it after opening. Once they were down she was transported to the hospital with a huge, deep gash in her ankle but nothing was broken. I guess the lesson to be learned from this is to make sure the student is in the proper position for exit. Practice on the ground fully hooked up would probably help the student understand exactly what he or she needs to do to make it a smooth exit and a good skydive. I'm sorry if my post here is out of place, but I wanted to make people aware of this so it doesn't happen to someone else. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
faulknerwn 36 #48 September 25, 2009 And if you're doing video - watch for that stuff. I was doing video out of a 182 this summer. The TM was taking someone "older" - I forget how old. When he got his feet out one went in front of the step instead of behind it. I started frantically point it out to the TM because I didn't want her to leave and him break a leg. Between the 2 of us we finally got him in the right position and went on for an uneventful skydive. If I hadn't spotted it, he might have been injured because she couldn't see his leg. Its funny - he knew his leg was in the wrong spot but it was too windy for him to move it he said! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #49 September 26, 2009 If students are heavy, I prefer them to put their feet on the step. With light-weight Japanese girls, I don't care as long as their feet are down-wind (aft) of the step. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
douwanto 22 #50 September 26, 2009 I have found no matter how big they are feet on the step gives them that last moment of security. When their feet dangle they can feel out of control before the exit. JM2C Uncle/GrandPapa Whit Unico Rodriguez # 245 Muff Brother # 2421 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
