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For me it isn't that they are awful, but unpredictable. I had a student help me steer and flare. A mistake. We had practiced the flare up high and it went well. When we came into land and I said flare, he slammed down the toggles almost ripping them from my hands. I had to actually pull up on the toggles so we didn't end up getting slammed down going backwards. On a tandem skydive, I am also concerned with my own safety, so I try to minimize the risk posed by an unpredictable student.
Sky Canyon Wingsuiters
peek 20
QuoteFor me it isn't that they are awful, but unpredictable. I had a student help me steer and flare. We had practiced the flare up high and it went well. When we came into land and I said flare, he slammed down the toggles almost ripping them from my hands.
I guess we can say unpredictable is a subset of awful. :)
This happened to me a few times, then I realized what was going on. They were of course getting ground rush and wanting to flare early. During the flare practice I started telling them that they would feel this, but to trust me and not flare until I told them to, and to simply follow my hands. I tell them that this is how we are going to get the best landing. Everyone wants that, so they help out.
I wish we could use this Instructors forum on dropzone.com for exchanging tips and such (like in the instructional rating seminars we should be having at least yearly), but it never seems to be used for that.
bclark 0
QuoteThis happened to me a few times, then I realized what was going on. They were of course getting ground rush and wanting to flare early. During the flare practice I started telling them that they would feel this, but to trust me and not flare until I told them to, and to simply follow my hands. I tell them that this is how we are going to get the best landing. Everyone wants that, so they help out.
I use much the same technique. During flare practice up high I tell them it is going to look like we are going fast. Then we practice hands up, legs out, and "bring your hands down with mine". I use this instead of "flare" because it is a simple instruction, rather than terminology that they have likely never heard prior to their first jump.
I know alot of TI's have preconceived notions about letting their students land. Many of them never seriously took the time to practice several landings under canopy with their student. (because we all know death spirals and vomit are more fun.
) Many others can't land a parachute by themselves, let alone with someone else on the controls with them. (If you are one of these, please take a break from doing tandems and go work on your own canopy skills.)
This topic has gotten a little off track. From students getting alti's to participation in canopy flight. Both topics are inter related because they both come down to whether you consider yourself an instructor or a human amusement park ride. I personally feel that being an instructor is much more rewarding to me as a Tandem pilot, and to my student who gets a little personal attention and an opportunity to participate and learn.
I don't do too many tandems anymore. (having fun driving the caravan). But many threads in this forum come down to one question:
Are you an instructor?
-or-
Are you an amusement park ride?
peek 20
QuoteThen we practice hands up, legs out, and "bring your hands down with mine". I use this instead of "flare" because it is a simple instruction, rather than terminology that they have likely never heard prior to their first jump.
Good idea.
QuoteThis topic has gotten a little off track.
True, but funny, I don't mind when we are sharing positive ideas!
No I do not give my PASSENGERS an alti. Rigs are setup here in europe that they can not acces the release anyway
Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habid.
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Also in case you jump a sport rig!!!
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Also in case you jump a sport rig!!!
Most tandems I've seen, granted though that my experience outside my own DZ is boogies, the majority of tandem students are not given altimeters. My feel is that the vast majority do not give tandem students altimeters, but most of those folks aren't going to post here that they don't because they know that they'll get flamed about it. "You're breaking BSRs!" "You should be training!" etc. I'll admit that my DZ could make our tandem skydives more educational, I don't let them pull, I even take the toggles away at 1000'. It's what I prefer, granted not the best training. Flame away!
I/we will spend time encouraging, and explaining to folks who show any level of interest in continuing our IAD training, even discount it $40 after a tandem. If you want to learn to skydive with us, you take the IAD FJC. I do understand training tandems, and how it can empower the student more.
Martin
I/we will spend time encouraging, and explaining to folks who show any level of interest in continuing our IAD training, even discount it $40 after a tandem. If you want to learn to skydive with us, you take the IAD FJC. I do understand training tandems, and how it can empower the student more.
Martin
Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.
AC DZ
AC DZ
peek 20
QuoteNo I do not give my PASSENGERS an alti. Rigs are setup here in europe that they can not acces the release anyway
That's interesting. Is that some kind of rule from the skydiving or aviation organizations, a preference from DZO's or instructors, or something else?
QuoteQuoteNo I do not give my PASSENGERS an alti. Rigs are setup here in europe that they can not acces the release anyway
That's interesting. Is that some kind of rule from the skydiving or aviation organizations, a preference from DZO's or instructors, or something else?
It's the way tandems are sold here. A tandem is sold as a 1 time experience, not as training method.
Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habid.
.
.
Also in case you jump a sport rig!!!
.
.
Also in case you jump a sport rig!!!
I am not a TI but I am an AFFI at Skydive Orange, VA, and every tandem student is provided with an altimeter by the TI's before they jump at Orange. I have been to other DZs and wondered why they did not give altimeters to their tandem students.
The original idea of a tandem was to introduce the sport to a prospective skydiver in a manner that allowed for freefall. Learning to be altitude aware is pretty important and I would think you should introduce the student to that key piece of equipment from day 1.
The original idea of a tandem was to introduce the sport to a prospective skydiver in a manner that allowed for freefall. Learning to be altitude aware is pretty important and I would think you should introduce the student to that key piece of equipment from day 1.
Charlie Gittins, 540-327-2208
AFF-I, Sigma TI, IAD-I
MEI, CFI-I, Senior Rigger
Former DZO, Blue Ridge Skydiving Adventures
AFF-I, Sigma TI, IAD-I
MEI, CFI-I, Senior Rigger
Former DZO, Blue Ridge Skydiving Adventures
Well said, sir.
----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.
I apologize if this seems overly argumentative, but for those of us who started our skydiving career with a tandem, would it have made much of a difference if you had an altimeter on or not? When I did my first tandem I had the grumpy old guy take me. He did minimal training and was not the type to encourage continuing involvement. However, I felt something that didn't need any of that. I felt I wanted to keep going. I believe if someone is hooked they don't need all the encouragement to continue. There is an internal fire that keeps them going. As far as the safety of having a second altimeter I can understand that. But as far as a tool to help make the student feel involved, I don't think that is as pertinent. .02 cents
Sky Canyon Wingsuiters
peek 20
QuoteWhen I did my first tandem I had the grumpy old guy take me. He did minimal training and was not the type to encourage continuing involvement. However, I felt something that didn't need any of that.
Fortunately, that is the beauty of our sport! Instructors involved with first jump students (of any kind) can be poor "ambassadors to the sport", and the students still come back!
If skydiving provided a service that was not so addictive, most skydiving businesses would be out of business in a short time.
iambeav2 0
The only DZ's I've EVER been too has made all tandems (including my DZ) wear an altimeter! And it's a good fucking thing too...in freefall just last weekend I looked over and noticed my Alti was stuck, not moving, so I kept an eye on my tandem's alti...and pulled accordingly. Replaced my alti for the next jump!
...it's not the fact that you don't appreciate what you have until it's gone...it's the fact that you don't appreciate what you have until someone appreciates it for you!
Rob, don't you think it is our responsibility as instructors to change them from "not bright enough" to sufficiently bright? I think it might improve safety.
It always amazes me to hear tandem instructors talk about their awful students. I have had plenty of students that I thought were going to be awful, but after a bit of conversation (training) they have turned out OK.
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