TIs do you give your students altimeters?

[WatchYourStep 0]

I've seen several videos lately where the student isn't wearing an altimeter and was just wondering how common this was and the reasoning.

Thanks

"You start off your skydiving career with a bag full of luck and an empty bag of experience. The trick is to fill the bag of experience up before your bag of luck runs out."

[peek 20]

Why do I give my tandem students altimeters?

Same reason I give my S/L and AFF students altimeters.

[tetra316 0]

I've only seen it done if they are using the tandem to AFF training progression.

[tombuch 0]

In the United States the USPA BSR's require a visually accessible altimeter for all students. (See the SIM, page 8 (Parachute Equipment)

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[VictorSuvorov 0]

wouldn't an altimeter on a TI's hand be considered visually accessible by a student?

[hchunter614 0]

Not if the TI is incapacitated for some reason.

[tombuch 0]

Quote

wouldn't an altimeter on a TI's hand be considered visually accessible by a student?

Far too many skydivers like to look for ways around a regulation or rule, rather than recognize the reason for the regulation or rule in the first place. The use of an altimeter and appropriate training of the student improves safety. Plus, it gives the student a sense of responsibility and belonging, and can be part of a program to improve retention.

The instructors altimeter is not always visually accessible, and is thus not always available to the student.

The USPA BSR begins with "All students are to be equipped with the following..." It doesn't say their instructor should be equipped. Golly-gosh, we should really just do the right thing and give them an altimeter. It ain't that hard.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[YISkyDive 0]

Because some TI's might think that the BSR’s logic is flawed.

On a complex tandem system a "student" or "client" or whatever else they are called has no business attempting to deploy a main / reserve or any combination thereof. So why should they have access to an alti? It took me over 3 years, over 500 jumps, a cutaway and some pretty lengthy course work to be given privilege to operate a TI rig.

If a TI is unable to deploy a main or reserve its best that an AAD take care of it - if a student in a complex situation deploys the wrong canopy at an even more wrong time then another double fatality could happen. It’s not unrealistic to think by the time (if) a student reads and comprehends their Altimeter that the two-out case that recently occurred may happen again.

Its one thing if a student plans to continue skydiving; in which case they get like AFF treat meant at all parts possible. It’s another if they are there for the thrill.

This is just a personal opinion - I completely understand the logic the other way as well but my mentality has been the further removed a student is from the known the capabilities or operations of the complex parts of tandem system the safer I and the Student are on the skydive. People do weird shit when they panic – we’ve all seen it or felt it in the air. The last thing I need is for them to start panicing and grab for stuff while I am incapacitated.

[jvcvudu 0]

Tandem level II's get altimeters at our DZ.

[incendium 0]

I think Tom said it best, because we are required to.

v/r
Paul
"Never argue with an idiot, they will only bring you down to their level and beat you!"

[billeisele 122]

Totally disagree.

IMO it addds another layer of safety. Our students are given an altimeter, access to a ripcord and told when to use it.

If they would, in fact, follow those instructions is another question. But at least the opportunity is there.

Give one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws.

[peek 20]

Quote

I've only seen it done if they are using the tandem to AFF training progression.

At the dropzones where you jump? in the US? What about the BSR's?

[peek 20]

Quote

Tandem level II's get altimeters at our DZ.

What about the BSR's? Does his mean you violate a BSR whenever you do a first tandem jump with a student?

[YISkyDive 0]

That's the side of the argument I respect. It is / could be another layer of safety and it could save two lives. I just personally do not know if I believe, statistically speaking, if the ods of a student doing something correctly out weigh the odds of an automatic activation.

[tetra316 0]

Quote

Quote

Tandem level II's get altimeters at our DZ.

What about the BSR's? Does his mean you violate a BSR whenever you do a first tandem jump with a student?

If you continue reading that section it also states students must be equipped with a piggyback harness and container system. So in effect every tandem violates the BSRs then since the student does not have a container system.

In reality I wouldn't be surprised if the dz's that have ALL tandems wear altimeters are very much in the minority.

[matthewcline 0]

Aside from following the the FAR's and BSR's (USA only) it is the right thing to do, provided you actually do Instruct them, as an Instrcutor should do.

Of course too many T-I's want to act like this is too hard or not really the intent of Tandem Parachuting and think it is thier skydive.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[peek 20]

Quote

If you continue reading that section it also states students must be equipped with a piggyback harness and container system. So in effect every tandem violates the BSRs then since the student does not have a container system.

You are showing us a very good example of how skydivers want to interpret a document to the benefit of a certain viewpoint.

By all means do not believe me! I'm just some knucklehead on dropzone.com.

Ask your USPA Regional Director for an interpretation. Ask the tandem manufacturer about their requirements.

Tara, do all of your tandem students wear altimeters?

[peregrinerose 0]

Is there a reason, other than laziness, that a student should not have an alti?

To me, no alti only re-enforces the concept that a tandem is no different than a roller coaster. Something simple like throwing and alti on their hand shifts the perspective slightly.

Look at the recent NC tandem fatality where the TI alti apparently was not functioning properly. Did his student have an alti? If he looked at the student alti, could the fatality have been prevented? A student alti is also a nice backup for the TI to use.

I've been on staff at 2 DZs and regularly jump at a 3rd.... all three put alti's on every tandem student.

Disclaimer... I'm not a TI, but I sleep with one, so doesn't that count for something?

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[peek 20]

Quote

Is there a reason, other than laziness, that a student should not have an alti?

No.

But what is worse is that there are large groups of skydivers and DZO's who treat first jump tandem students only as money.

It should not be a surprise that these groups of people do not give their tandem students altimeters.

They don't even give respect them as students, so why would they give them any additional safety equipment?

[feuergnom 22]

i'll give it a nice try:
I was trained to give my passengers/students an alti - and i have to state that i've become lazy of lately. a good reminder to pick it up again i just have to find my second alti.

giving your student an alti gives you something to talk about on the way up, the student a possibility to realize how fast they are falling and some more opportunity for talking once under canopy

as for the "danger" & "added risk" arguement: honestly i don't see giving your "pax" an alti adding risk. maybe that school of thought stems from different approaches from different manufacturers.

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

Quote

Why do I give my tandem students altimeters?

Same reason I give my S/L and AFF students altimeters.

Same reason as Gary just stated.

Chuck

[tetra316 0]

Quote

Quote

If you continue reading that section it also states students must be equipped with a piggyback harness and container system. So in effect every tandem violates the BSRs then since the student does not have a container system.

You are showing us a very good example of how skydivers want to interpret a document to the benefit of a certain viewpoint.

By all means do not believe me! I'm just some knucklehead on dropzone.com.

Ask your USPA Regional Director for an interpretation. Ask the tandem manufacturer about their requirements.

Tara, do all of your tandem students wear altimeters?

I no longer do tandems so it's a moot point. But I will say the vast majority of dz's, if not everyone I've been to DO NOT equip students with altimeters (aside from progression training).

This is what the SIM says:
2. All students are to be equipped with the following equipment until they have obtained a USPA A license:

a. a rigid helmet (except tandem students) [NW]

b. a piggyback harness and container system that includes a single-pointriser release and a reserve static line, except: [FB]

(1) A student who has been cleared for freefall self-supervision may jump without a reserve static line upon endorsement from his or her supervising instructor.

(2) Such endorsement may be for one jump or a series of jumps.

c. a visually accessible altimeter [NW]

d. a functional automatic activation device that meets the manufacturer'srecommended service schedule [FB]

e. a ram-air main canopy suitable for student use [FB]

f. a steerable reserve canopy appropriate to the student's weight[FB]

g. for freefall, a ripcord-activated, spring-loaded, pilot-chute-equipped main parachute or a bottom-of-container (BOC) throw-out pilot chute [FB]

In reading this both b and c (and the rest) should be applied in the same manner. I'm not interpeting this. However, since b is not applicable to tandem students (and yet it does not distinguish this like a does) how can you say whether or not c is also applicable? See my point? I believe this BSR is not clear since you seem to be saying b does not apply but yet c does.

All I'm saying is this is confusing language and therefore imho this is why the majority of dz's do not give tandems altimeters. Along with the mindset of the tandem factories.

[peek 20]

Tara, thank you very much for your explanation and for your pointing out the difficulty interpreting the BSR's related to tandem students. I agree that the organization of the entire BSR section could stand improvement. I have considered requesting a review, but I have no hopes of it happening. Unfortunately, every time something changes in student instruction, it affects more sections of USPA documentation that the changers are willing to research, so eventually the documentation becomes muddled.

For those instructors that you see not giving altimeters to their students, well, please just try to convince them otherwise. If enough people do, they might consider a more conservative interpretation of the BSR's.

So why did you stop doing tandem instruction? I recall reading some posts by you that seemed to indicate that you enjoy doing them?

[tetra316 0]

Quote

So why did you stop doing tandem instruction? I recall reading some posts by you that seemed to indicate that you enjoy doing them?

Lots of things. I had knee surgery two years ago so took about 6 months off. That messed with me mentally as well since it was a skydiving injury. I started jumping again and even did some cross over training to Sigma since I moved and was jumping at a different dz. Then I got addicted to sequentials and bigways. I'm starting to do more coaching and am really enjoying it. Thinking about going for my AFF rating. Also the new dz is quite different than my old one and has different philosophies about everything. In additionn I started a new career and no longer need the tandem money to continue my own jumping.

With all this I just realized I didn't want to do tandems bad enough to make it happen either here or elsewhere. So now I'm concentrating on getting on the next WT and an AFF rating.

[mnskydiver688 0]

What if, after you have instructed them on altitude awareness and pull procedures, your student refuses to wear the altimeter citing that they do not wish to have that responsibility? I have had a couple students refuse to help me in steering the canopy also.

Sky Canyon Wingsuiters