0
efs4ever

Scared Student on Tandem Jump

Recommended Posts

You have a better understanding of liability in the skydiving world than I do; however, I believe that having an overt refusal (especially on video) and then conducting the jump anyways opens the instructor to an increased amount of liability. The instructor and probably all of the parties involved.

"No sounds just like go" is an excellent joke, but dangerous in the real world. I've had two refusals over the last 6 years of tossing drogues. Three if you count the student that walked out after watching the Vector "waiver video" and reading the release of liability contract. I don't regret landing in the plane with either of them.
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

You have a better understanding of liability in the skydiving world than I do; however, I believe that having an overt refusal (especially on video) and then conducting the jump anyways opens the instructor to an increased amount of liability. The instructor and probably all of the parties involved.

"No sounds just like go" is an excellent joke, but dangerous in the real world. I've had two refusals over the last 6 years of tossing drogues. Three if you count the student that walked out after watching the Vector "waiver video" and reading the release of liability contract. I don't regret landing in the plane with either of them.




Uh, well, that's what I was thinking at the time. Lawyer thought. Mel Thompson picked up on it on the FB thread.

She was clearly NOT wanting to go. Actually, I wanted video guy to come back in so we could discuss it with her, but he left.
Russell M. Webb D 7014
Attorney at Law
713 385 5676
https://www.tdcparole.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

I wanted video guy to come back in so we could discuss it with her



I'm willing to bet that any further discussion would be also increase liability. I kind of view an overt refusal like the invoking of Miranda rights. Once done its done and only the other party can change that, with out any sort of outside influence. Even then you're on shaky ground. Their money is gone, as previously explained to them, but my liability "footprint" is still as small as I can make it. This is also specific in my mind to a first jump student. Do you agree or disagree? As I said previously, your experience in legal liability is larger than my experience.
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

I wanted video guy to come back in so we could discuss it with her



I'm willing to bet that any further discussion would be also increase liability. I kind of view an overt refusal like the invoking of Miranda rights. Once done its done and only the other party can change that, with out any sort of outside influence. Even then you're on shaky ground. Their money is gone, as previously explained to them, but my liability "footprint" is still as small as I can make it. This is also specific in my mind to a first jump student. Do you agree or disagree? As I said previously, your experience in legal liability is larger than my experience.


Daaam, A.D., are you gettin ready for law school? :P
Russell M. Webb D 7014
Attorney at Law
713 385 5676
https://www.tdcparole.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cound'nt see the vid but I'm f**ken happy that I don't have to deal with the same liability bullshit that you do in the US.

For everyone who you 'force' out the door 99% will thank you for it later. ;)

2 wrongs don't make a right - but 3 lefts do.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The video didn't work for me. The rejection message was
Quote

"This video either has been removed from Facebook or is not visible due to privacy settings."



Back in the day most drop zones and instructors would do all they could to make their students jump. Now, we understand that no really means no, and we respect the anxiety of our customers.
Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

I've always been curious about this. Does the "iron clad" waiver cover all three; DZ, TI, and gear manufacturer?



It varies, but as indicated by your use of quotes, you understand there is no "iron clad" waiver.

In my experience most drop zones do include the instructor and other staff in the written waiver, but sometimes there can be conflict between who is a covered staff person, and who is an independent contractor. And, in the event of litigation the drop zone legal representative may not provide service to an instructor, and indeed the interests of the instructor and drop zone may be significantly different.

And of course the rights and responsibilities of each party and the value of the waiver itself will vary from state to state.

The best advice I can offer is to carefully read the waiver(s) at your DZ and see who is covered, and how that coverage is defined, then take a copy to your own lawyer.
Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I've had 1 refusal in 1500 tandems - although lots of "almosts"

If they're nervous, I explain how it will work (and that I do the 'hard' stuff) - if that doesn't work, I remind them that they came here to jump and it's non-refundable. If they still say no - i'm not forcing them...

Step 1 takes care of 90%, Step 2 takes care of another 9.93%. After that, is the liability of 'forcing' a jump worth a skydive?

For comparison, check out the TI's face during this attempted exit - I think he debated going but knew better. Then it all turned out just fine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIyxHL2Og3Y

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

She was clearly NOT wanting to go.



I think that is because you scared her so much with the antics of where to hook up.
She has a really nice smile and then looks very concerned about your qualifications.
I also think that her chest strap is way too low. The harness should not fall of the shoulder like it did on her.

Quote

Actually, I wanted video guy to come back in so we could discuss it with her, but he left.



He was documenting the cloud clearances.

.
.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
In all my years of instruction I have never had a tandem refusal. I HAVE had to move forward in the plane and let others exit first, then take a go around, but they have all ended up exiting of their own free will. I have had a number of AFF jump refusals and a couple of SL jump refusals (years ago) though.

Ultimately, I am not about to force anyone out the door who outright refuses. That's just plain dumb for any number of reasons. Dave Lund covered most of them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Is it just me or is the chest strap undone when she is hanging out of the plane? If you look at 1:33-1:35 it looks like the chest strap is totally undone??? Or am I missing something here???

"You start off your skydiving career with a bag full of luck and an empty bag of experience. The trick is to fill the bag of experience up before your bag of luck runs out."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Is it just me or is the chest strap undone when she is hanging out of the plane? If you look at 1:33-1:35 it looks like the chest strap is totally undone??? Or am I missing something here???



I don't think it's undone. Just some excess strap from either the chest strap or shoulder strap that came out of the keeper.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Is it just me or is the chest strap undone when she is hanging out of the plane? If you look at 1:33-1:35 it looks like the chest strap is totally undone??? Or am I missing something here???



You're missing something. The mail lift adjuster excess is probably what you are seeing. Chest strap is the fist thing that gets threaded on my students.
Russell M. Webb D 7014
Attorney at Law
713 385 5676
https://www.tdcparole.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I don't understand why tandem instructors do that. I know it supposed to be funny and it makes for a good video but it only made me more nervous than I already was. I never gave myself the option of backing out though. Thank god none of my AFF instructors did that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

I don't understand why tandem instructors do that. I know it supposed to be funny and it makes for a good video but it only made me more nervous than I already was.



Most do it because they think it's funny. Some students respond really well and like the humor on their videos. For others it increases stress.

Instructors (as well as video people and drop zone managers) would do well to watch this video and really think about why and how they make light of safety, and how those comments can be misinterpreted by students. We should really be working to be supportive in everything we do, and in most cases that probably means skipping the black humor.

I made more than 1,000 tandems, and learned over time how to best handle each student. It really takes effort, and a desire to see the jump through their eyes. It's easy to get caught up in the same-ness of tandem jumps and add things that are fun for the staff, but a good instructor is always reminding himself that this moment is unique for that student, and needs to be programed for that individual alone. That's probably the hardest part of tandem jumping (and instructing in general).
Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
With over 4000 Tandems I have never had a refusal.
I dsid have our bartender at carlos and charlies in Ixtapa grab the bar in the otter door and start crying but he told me on the ground to make him go no matter what he did so I removed his hands from the bar held them and said in his ear SuperMan cant land in a stinking plane, He had a full on Super Man costume on.

The girl in the video would have made the tandem if her instructor had enough since to see and help confront her real fears on the ground and on the way to altitude. He chose to play the stupid scare games we all play from time to time. Wrong choice for thea situation. and what was up with the chest strap being so low and the harness pulled down to far in the rear. that sure made her feel safe.

A couple of things that help me and my passenger are
1. I assure them that I can and will take care of them. I tell them no matter what anyone on the DZ says to them We are going to have a safe exciting experience.
2. If I see that they are truly frightened I look them in the eyes and assure them that I can handle what ever happens on our skydive reminding them that what ever happens to them happens to me and I am ready for everything.
3.when I hook up I do not mess around I verbally conform each connection fallowed by a psychical tugg on that connection after the last I ask my passenger if they feel secure and they all seem to and know I am aware of their concerns.
4. I let each and every one know that there is nothing they can do to cause us to die. They are always scared they will mess up they are going to cause their death, I again assure them that if they do every thing wrong and forget all we have talked about It will still be ok.

Uncle/GrandPapa Whit
Unico Rodriguez # 245
Muff Brother # 2421

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The joking around with the attchment point is not meant to be seen by the student until the video is viewed. She was not watching that.

I wanted the camera guy to come back in so I could calm her down, but he left. You can see me motioning him back.

The attachment point humor is not actually something I do with any regularity. It just happened on that jump because the red light was on. I probably haven't done that in a couple of years.

In almost 1800 tandems I've had three refusals. My pre-jump lecture contains a part about how the fear factor jumps up when the door opens, and that the student should anticipate "second thoughts" and work through it.


I seriously pay attention to all commentary here with an eye to improvement.
Russell M. Webb D 7014
Attorney at Law
713 385 5676
https://www.tdcparole.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I agree completely! If someone says no and you talk them into going anyway and they get hurt,you could be accused of coercing them into doing something they had not really wanted to do.
In this country,that could mean losing in a court of law.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

I agree completely! If someone says no and you talk them into going anyway and they get hurt,you could be accused of coercing them into doing something they had not really wanted to do.
In this country,that could mean losing in a court of law.



You say "Talking them into it."

I say "Calming them down."
Russell M. Webb D 7014
Attorney at Law
713 385 5676
https://www.tdcparole.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

0