Tandem exits

[jtiflyer 0]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBPoBarPGsc

perfect example of why tandems should leave stable

oops tried to edit for clicky hopefully a mod will get to that

[BobMoore 0]

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBPoBarPGsc

perfect example of why tandems should leave stable

oops tried to edit for clicky hopefully a mod will get to that

Don't need a mod.

"For you see, an airplane is an airplane. A landing area is a landing area. But a dropzone... a dropzone is the people."

[jtiflyer 0]

thanks

[davelepka 4]

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Recent jump that got me a bit scared

As previously stated, angle yourself toward the relative wind as you sit in the door. Think about sitting only on your left butt cheek, with righty hanging off the edge.

Also, on a seated exit, you can practice that on the ground using a picnic table. Have the passenger sit on the edge of the table like it was the door, and practice standing up into an arch. They have to bring their hips forward to stand up from a sitting position anyway, so get them used to continuing the hips forward motion and taking it all the way into an arch.

Don't hesitate to shout at the student on the hill either. They can hear you in the sub terminal air even if your head isn't tucked right next to theirs. Fly your body, arch hard, and yell at the student, what could possibly go wrong?

[nikosd 0]

Many thanks Craig, Rhys, Martin, Rich and Dave for the constructive feedback. Some comments from my side:

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Seated exits from Porters are tricky as the legs are already presented forward. Porters are also trickier due to the low run in speed and you need to work to maintain authority. You can see the student straightens and widens his legs out in front of him even more so a fraction before exit. The instructor seems oblivious to this (don't know if it is intentional or not). Assuming the student was briefed to have has knees bent and legs between the instructor's, the instructor could have waited until the students legs were in a better position before exiting (although that's not easy with the step).

Fully agree with the difficulties of the Porter, but it's still my favourite plane, even for tandems. The student was thoroughly briefed about importance of arching. I have to admit that I didn't notice his leg position. I was already committed to the exit, but I probably wouldn't notice anyway (being the newbie that I am and focusing on other important stuff like handles)

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It's easy to second guess setting at desk but there does look like the was a point where the drogue could have been thrown ealier, but it's a diffiult call to make in a split second, which is why it is better to wait until controlled stability.

Exactly. I did in fact get into a belly to earth position at this point, but I felt the momentum from the tumble and decided to wait until controlled stability.

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This should be expected on every jump, if you are scared of this happening, then you should consider not doing tandems, it is our job to deal with this.

Absolutely. "Scared" is maybe a bit overstated, so let's say it got my attention. Mainly because this guy is actually smaller than me and still managed to take me for a ride.

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Some points to take out of this is maybe if you angled your self a bit more to the left and hopped out with the RW hitting you in the student chest, it may have helped. If you look closely as you leave the RW is hitting you directly from the side, not where you want it to be.

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As previously stated, angle yourself toward the relative wind as you sit in the door. Think about sitting only on your left butt cheek, with righty hanging off the edge.

That seems to be the key. So far I have found it easy to setup in a straight out position and make the turn while exiting, in order to present to the RW. But in this case the RW caught the surface of his outter leg, so I didn't manage. As you know, getting an angle at setup is challenging because of the weight, but for sure it will increase the chances for a stable exit.

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Also, on a seated exit, you can practice that on the ground using a picnic table. Have the passenger sit on the edge of the table like it was the door, and practice standing up into an arch. They have to bring their hips forward to stand up from a sitting position anyway, so get them used to continuing the hips forward motion and taking it all the way into an arch.

This wouldn't help a lot. Typically for the Porter, the student keeps his legs hanging outside the step, not on the step. So the standup practice is not really applicable.

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Don't hesitate to shout at the student on the hill either. They can hear you in the sub terminal air even if your head isn't tucked right next to theirs.

Good point, haven't thought of that.


FWIW, the student took an AFF course and did an excellent job!

[davelepka 4]

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Typically for the Porter, the student keeps his legs hanging outside the step, not on the step. So the standup practice is not really applicable.

There's no way to fully replicate an exit 100% without actaully exiting, so we look for the best possible replacement. In this case, you want the student to go from a seated position to an arched position, so the best we can do to replicate that is to sit them somewhere, and then transition to an arch along with the exit count.

A picnic table allows their legs to hang free, like the plane, and you can rock back and forth and give the count, and on 'GO', they rock forward and into an arch. Yes, because it's only practice, they have to stand up when they roll off the table, but what you can get them to do is push their hips forward. Get the whole sequence in their minds, the count, the rock, and the arch. It's the best you can do without actually leaving a plane.

[Para5-0 0]

Niko,
You are going to be a very good TI. Unlike many you are seeking out advice and even more importantly you are really analyzing it and using it to make you better. Couple that with a shit load of tandem jumps and you will have a great skydiving career. Keep up the good work.

[johnny1488 1]

Great job from my view. if you are looking for tips, really place yourself into the wind with your legs. Really lift the students weight (if your porter has a step) and place yourself into the wind and you'ld be amazed at what you can overcome with a little sheer force. it will usually give you at least a second or 2 in the wind regardless of the student.

Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome

[nikosd 0]

Johnny,

Just to make sure I understood correctly: Do you mean something like a standup motion before clearing the door, instead of just "dropping"? I have to train those quads I guess :-)

[rhys 0]

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Niko,
You are going to be a very good TI. Unlike many you are seeking out advice and even more importantly you are really analyzing it and using it to make you better. Couple that with a shit load of tandem jumps and you will have a great skydiving career. Keep up the good work.

Agreed.

some are too cautious of thier ego to discuss thier shortcomings or debatable subjects.

Charge on...

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[johnny1488 1]

Exactly. A good strong launch is the best way to start any tandem jump. If you're sitting, you really need to lift yourself up and off of the plane.

Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome

[lowpull 0]

Not bad!! You did NOT use the drogue to get stable, and you stayed calm and out-flew the student. Despite anything else you will get from this discussion, you kept your head, and everything turned out ok.
I have seen guys with thousands more jumps than you not deal with these type of situations as well as you did.
Ralph

[lowpull 0]

Ummm ,kind of. I teach Instructor candidates to "fly like a cat".
By this I mean that just busting out the biggest, hardest, toe-cramping, listen to your back crack arch is not always appropriate. If the syudent de-arches, and you give a hard arch, things can go bad quickly.

I teach that they should use the best tool for the situation. sometimes slipping your upper body into the relative wind before arching like mad works best.

I do not want to hijack this thread, or start a war of words about exit technique, just throw in my 2 cents.

peace
ralph

[mircan 0]

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Niko,
You are going to be a very good TI. Unlike many you are seeking out advice and even more importantly you are really analyzing it and using it to make you better. Couple that with a shit load of tandem jumps and you will have a great skydiving career. Keep up the good work.

Agreed.

some are too cautious of thier ego to discuss thier shortcomings or debatable subjects.

Charge on...

99% of the TIs that I jump with ask NO advice and are hard to accept any.
Pissing contest every time.
And most of TIs are not so good...

dudeist skydiver #42

[johnny1488 1]

Agreed. I don't arch at all, I fly with my knees down quite a bit. I just think putting the student into the wind instead of expecting anything when you exit is the key.

Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome

[riggerrob 558]

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Agreed. I don't arch at all, I fly with my knees down quite a bit. I just think putting the student into the wind instead of expecting anything when you exit is the key.

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I disagree with your first point.

No matter what the student is doing, I still arch as if my life depended upon it. If the student refuses to arch, I just arch twice as hard.
When things go "totally tubular, I still keep my legs out and my spine arched, but swing my arms into a delta and delta dive out of the tumble. Once the horizon starts behaving, I toss the drogue, check handles and try to adjust the student.
With truly stupid students, I have to maintain that hard arch all the way through opening. Sometimes I stretch out my hip flexor muscles from arching so hard.

[riggerrob 558]

Yes, the exit from a Porter should be similar to the way static-line students exit from cargo door Cessna 206s.
Knees out and pointed forward, looking at the wing. Tell the student to tuck his feet back under the plane.

Aggressive push-off with the right hand on the rear door frame and reach for the right wing tip.
If you you aggressively "launch" your student in to the relative wind, you will instantly find yourself stable and can slap the right main wheel with your left hand.
Since you are already stable - and below the horizontal stabilizer - you can toss the drogue before the student has a chance to mess up your fine "launch."

[godspeed 0]

true...side spins are not created by students, they are made by instructors

[Abedy 0]

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Since you are already stable - and below the horizontal stabilizer - you can toss the drogue before the student has a chance to mess up your fine "launch."

I use this technique for exits from a C206 (soloy) which works very fine. I also use my right leg to "push" into the relative wind while my left leg is sort of passively "dangling", but spread when I "launch" the party. As we are almost immediately "lying" on the relative wind the student might even push their legs forwards or go foetal - they do not really have a chance to mess up things, at least within the period until you throw the drogue.
Works even with 90 kg students (~ 200 lbs)
But you have to take care the student really put their legs underneath the edge of the door to prevent them from blocking your right leg which may result in a nice barrel roll

The sky is not the limit. The ground is.

The Society of Skydiving Ducks