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Tandem exits

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I have an opinion about tandem exits from a C182. First, a diving exit from a C182 is not the same thing as prop facing exit from an Otter. I had 100 plus tandems before I jumped a large side door airplane, and was literally amazed how easy it was to leave stable!

In “the old days” a poised exit from 182s was somewhat standard, but much less so these days (maybe good topic for a poll?). It’s been my experience that a diving exit from a C182 where the TI simply leaves and arches will tend to roll over to one side, then roll back if/when they get the student to cooperate (arch), many come off clean if the student does somewhat arch right off the airplane. I don’t personally like the whole barrel roll, side to the wind thing, as it seems to me to be much more susceptible to a side spin, I could be wrong?

How I prefer to leave is de-arched, and tapping my student on the knees, about the time we’re half way over the student is typically cooperating, and we both arch, settle out and throw the drogue. It’s typically 2 to 3 seconds off the airplane before the drogue comes out, and on “bad ones” it’s 500’, my worst ever may have been 1000’ (in 12,000 to 13,000 tandems). Again, I’ve done 1,300+/- tandems and could almost count on my fingers how many times I’ve even felt wind on my side. I’ve never been in a side spin, or for that matter even close.
Disclaimer: I am 6’ 8” tall which may be a factor.

We don’t officially teach with our tandems either. We do teach our students on their tandems, but if they want to learn to skydive they have to take the IAD FJC. One thing I’ve noticed it that former tandem students have to learn to not leave the plane with their feet on their butt. That first 30 second freefall can be fairly strong primacy training.

Do all you “official training tandem instructors” teach their first jump student to put their feet out in the wind on their first jump? Isn’t having them put their feet on their butt counter productive, and something that has to be unlearned later?

Martin
Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

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Yes, provided I had the time to train them and a translator to get the message delivered.


Wow! You mean you've never taken a tandem who didn't speak english or had a translator? I am stunned! I would guess that close to twenty percent of my tandem passengers I could not communicate with them well enough for me to legitimately call them a 'student.'
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What's your point?


My point is that every Tandem passenger is not a student. Different DZs treat their tandems different ways, but I think if I was to insist that the only way I would accept a tandem is as a bonafide candidate for an 'A' license at our DZ, I would have 200-300 less tandems on language skills alone.

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Yip,I enjoy the exit more and seem to get to drogue throw quicker with all passangers.When people talk about side spins,I feel the de-arched tumble exit eliminates that,not that that is the the reason I do the de-arch exit.
TQ
I am me and you are you, so deal with it!!!
www.skydivepe.com

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We get alot of visitors from ather countries so often we have had pass who connot speak english.We might soend a little longer with them briefing but will take them.Most of the time someone on the ground can help a little with translation.Pictures help in explaining what you want them to do.
TQ
I am me and you are you, so deal with it!!!
www.skydivepe.com

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Do all you “official training tandem instructors” teach their first jump [tandem] student to put their feet out in the wind on their first jump?



I can't imagine doing it any other way. The video used shows the student in a skydiving body position and I place them on a horizontal trainer and have them practice the same. I teach them just like I would an AFF student for the initial body position training.

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Isn’t having them put their feet on their butt counter productive, and something that has to be unlearned later?



(I wince every time I hear a TI tell their student to do that.) If they ever jump again I think the answer would be yes.

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My point is that every Tandem passenger is not a student. Different DZs treat their tandems different ways...



I suggest that it is not necessarily how a DZ treats their (tandem) students, but how the instructor treats them. I'm quite sure that many commercial DZs don't give a damn about whether they are trained as students or not, but the instructor can take it upon themselves to go just a bit further with the training and make a big difference.

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Peek, I have respect for your time in the sport and your attitude toward creating a safer environment for skydiving but I just can’t subscribe to this notion that carnival ride tandems are doing damage to the sport. You make statements such as in the last post like, it will make a “big difference.” What proof do you have of this?

A decline in our sport could be blamed on any one of a myriad of obstacles there are to becoming experienced in this sport. I think one could successfully argue that the more people you give a quick ride to (as long as it can be done safely), the more chance you have at coming across those individuals who are going to stick around and make a go of it. The more out of shape couch potatoes I take, the more of their friends who will see their video and say, “gee if he can do it so can I.”

One could argue, if it hadn’t been for the advent of carnival ride tandems we wouldn’t have half the big planes, a lot of the little dz’s might not be able to stay open, and there might not be the amount of skydivers we have now. There might not have been the money to research and come up with all the new safety features that have been developed.

I believe you should make information readily available to any who express even the slightest bit of interest in continuing but I think a person knows whether it’s a sport for them or not immediately. If a day full of training is all it takes to keep someone in the sport, then why don’t more of the solo students return?

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I don't think tandem jumps are doing damage to the sport. I just think they can be much more than what many DZs and instructors are making them.

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You make statements such as in the last post like, it will make a “big difference.” What proof do you have of this?



I have none! I only have what I hope you will believe, and that is that many tandem students I have instructed have at first assumed their skydive was about letting me do it all, and after having trained them and done the jump, seeing the expression on their face and hearing the tone of their voice that tells me that they now understand that it was a skydive where they got to learn a skill and use it.

What I also have (that I cannot prove, but I hope you will believe) is comments from tandem students that have done tandem jumps before or who know someone who has done one with less training.

For example, here is an excerpt from an email I got:

"Gary, ... I especially appreciated how you tried to instruct and inform throughout the process. My husband expressed how he wished his experience had been as informative. Thanks, xxx"

(What she meant by her reference to her husband was that he had done a tandem jump with much less instruction, and was watching as I trained her. He was amazed to find out what a tandem jump could be with the instruction.)

Another student did a tandem jump with me 3 years ago, did her second one with another instructor a year later, then the third one with me a few weeks ago. She commented that she preferred my instruction over the other instructor's lack of much instruction.

OK, enough of that! (But you asked...)

Other reasons I provide as much instruction as I do is:

1. It makes my jump safer. I tell them what to expect and what to do about it. Less apprehension, less likelihood of a student doing something "unusual".

2. It makes my jump easier. I just lay back and watch them utilize the skills they have learned. It's like I'm the one along for the ride. (I'm kind of a "do the work up front" kind of guy.)


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If a day full of training is all it takes to keep someone in the sport, then why don’t more of the solo students return?



Money! (In many cases.) Oh, wait, we had better make that another thread. We've hijacked this one about as far as we could have!

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I agree with Gary, give the student some instruction, allow them to pull, and let them assist steering the canopy and they have a much better experience. I have had the same comments as to how much a student enjoyed being involved as opposed to a "joy ride". Having said that, some people don't want anything but the ride, and that's fine tool. I just offer to treat it as a"student jump" up front and let them decide.
Back to stable/unstable exits. I always exit head high, toward the Otter wingtip, and use the first couple of seconds to look up and flip off the next instructor in the door! Back/frontloops may seem cool, but sooner or later your gonna get unstable and then you'll realize
why stable exits are good for you. If a student asks "can we do flips" I tell them that if they arch hard enough we may do a backflip (not) by the time you get them back on the ground they have forgotten all about wanting anything "extra". Just my two cents. Stay safe, Brent

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If a student asks "can we do flips" I tell them that if they arch hard enough we may do a backflip (not) by the time you get them back on the ground they have forgotten all about wanting anything "extra".



That is such a cool idea! I must remember that.

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I find diving towards the front of the aircraft, but letting the relative wind turn my down the hill and pitching the drogue shortly there after has a similar effect.

The student thinks we were "upside down" since we were pointed head towards the planet thought still belly to the relative wind, and on video it looks like a giant cartwheel.
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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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It feels for me that when I leave in a big arch it takes longer to get the tandem to drogue throw and with the tumble exit it feels quicker and, well, easier and more fun for all.



Being less sub-terminal after a few seconds might also be helping.

I do tandems out of a C-182 and the DZ used to unofficially allow a frontloop if a student mentioned wanting one. I did find it was a little more work to do (rather than being easier), but perhaps more front loops would have made it more like what the original poster experienced.

I thought doing a frontloop was a good practice of a tandem instructor's flying skills. Of course if "it takes more work" that somewhat implies it is less safe. Fair enough. Still, it seemed to be something an instructor should be able to handle, and that by doing it from time to time they'd be a more capable instructor in being able to take care of exits that weren't for whatever reason perfect. It might also reduce the tendency for some instructors to "get the drogue out right away" which has made for poorer drogue toss decisions, than for those who are willing to fly the student for a couple seconds longer before tossing.

Allowing a front loop doesn't mean that anything goes -- the instructor still needs to be appropriately tight to the student, fly the student, and quickly deal with any tendency to get the relative wind from the side.

After the DZ's firm new no-frontloop policy started, I figured I needed something for the students who really want a frontloop and want to do something cool like in the Youtube skydiving videos they've seen.

First, with the head-low attidute one tends to get from some C-182 exits, especially when following a video flyer, students may think they've done some sort of flip anyway.

Second, after the drogue was out I'd crank out a couple fast turns before settling down to a normal jump. They'd get impressed enough just by being spun around.

One post mentioned:
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Tandems are an introduction to skydiving, not a carnival ride.



Ironically, some students want to be introduced to skydiving by doing a neat exit like they see real skydivers doing. What's the point of skydiving, they think, if you can't do flips and stuff...

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Of course if "it takes more work" that somewhat implies it is less safe. Fair enough.



One needs to look and see if they think they have the right to expose the student to more danger without informing them of the risks.
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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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Of course if "it takes more work" that somewhat implies it is less safe. Fair enough.



One needs to look and see if they think they have the right to expose the student to more danger without informing them of the risks.



How much time to you spend explaining the additional risk the student is putting the tandem pair in by not arching immediately off the airplane? Do you explain that you could end up in a side spin, what a side spin is, what the outcome could be worst case scenario? Or do you simply explain it explicitly, make them practice it, and deal with what you get once in the air?

At some point before the student leaves, and generally when I present them with their certificate of achievement, I'll generally tell them "Thanks for not killing me!" They generally think it should be the other way round, but if we're "in trouble" to date it's not been attributed to my actions.

Now, be safe out there!
Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

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One needs to look and see if they think they have the right to expose the student to more danger without informing them of the risks.


How much time to you spend explaining the additional risk the student is putting the tandem pair in by not arching immediately off the airplane?



Best to to anesthetise and straightjacket tandem students, then just give them the video afterwards. Keeps them safer.

But seriously, I find when doing a single frontloop, diving to the side from a C-182, it is fine to instruct the student to arch normally. As long as I dive rotating downwards, momentum and my body position is enough to get around. That avoids the obvious body position and timing issues for the student!

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Never underestimate what a student will do despite being briefed! Seated exits from Porters are tricky as the legs are already presented forward. Porters are also trickier due to the low run in speed and you need to work to maintain authority. You can see the student straightens and widens his legs out in front of him even more so a fraction before exit. The instructor seems oblivious to this (don't know if it is intentional or not). Assuming the student was briefed to have has knees bent and legs between the instructor's, the instructor could have waited until the students legs were in a better position before exiting (although that's not easy with the step). I brief my students that if they feel me tapping their thighs with my hand or their ankles with my feet it means legs back. With a Porter's low run in speed it would be very easy to actually tell the student in the door to get his legs back. But sitting on the edge of a plane for the first time does weird things to people and they often don't respond. Perhaps even leg locking them to make sure they are in the right position. Or the ultimate is to just not go if you are not happy, get back in the plane. Depends how the student was on the ground or in the plane on the way up.

Having said that, the instructor didn't make the situation worse. He has a good arch, works it to get stable and doesn't throw his drogue until he is. It's easy to second guess setting at desk but there does look like the was a point where the drogue could have been thrown ealier, but it's a diffiult call to make in a split second, which is why it is better to wait until controlled stability. But then again, it could've gone a lot worse if the instructor wasn't working it or just unlucky, and throwing the drogue earlier could have prevented a much worse situation.
Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live

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Wow! You mean you've never taken a tandem who didn't speak english or had a translator?



I never have. Taking someone that I don't know has been told to do the right things is not worth the 30-40 bucks.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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I would never accept a student for training who doesn't speak english; would you accept a tandem student who doesn't speak a language you are fluent in?



Why not:
Banana, have fun is international
Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habid.
.
.
Also in case you jump a sport rig!!!

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Hello,

Newbie TI here. Recent jump that got me a bit scared:

...

Fellow TIs, any ideas about how this could have been prevented or better controlled?



The guy stiffened up his legs at the very last moment, and the moment he arched they became stable.

This should be expected on every jump, if you are scared of this happening, then you should consider not doing tandems, it is our job to deal with this.

We cannot expect every customer to do exactly as we tell them, we should expect every customer to not do what we tell them.

Jumping from a plane for the first time is scary, it seems to me this guy just got scared and remembered what to do a few seconds out the door.

His legs were extra ordinarily wide and stiff, this is not that common, but still to be expected.

Be safe and have fun.
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

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Rhys is pretty much right on. As I'm sure you've figured out already, the majority of tandem students take a couple of seconds off the airplane to get over the sensory overload, and start functioning again. This guy was extreme with his legs, I would have likely been working with him, hooking with my legs in an attempt to make him conscious of his legs. He was also extreme in that it took him six seconds to get it right, but then some will never arch correctly.

I remember at least one, I think a couple who got the arch flipped in their head and went into a tight fetal position. I tapped, and pushed, the response was to get more rigid in the fetal position. Stayed that way all the way through deployment, then asked "Did I arch right?" I'd much rather have someone fetal than legs out, or rag doll.
Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

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First off you did a nice job of waiting until it was belly to earth and then threw the drogue. It is definately noticeable when the passenger bends his legs you immediately got more control.
Answer: The more training on the ground the better. Like the others said expect this on every jump and then be surprised when they are better. Some points to take out of this is maybe if you angled your self a bit more to the left and hopped out with the RW hitting you in the student chest, it may have helped. If you look closely as you leave the RW is hitting you directly from the side, not where you want it to be. Also remember to Fly your exits, you are an experienced jumper, so fly baby fly, never give up. As said earlier you could also tap his legs or even hook them to ensure he bends his knees. I sometimes tell my passenger if I tap you legs remember legs closer together and bend your knees. Keep jumping and learning, great job checking your pride and asking for assistance.

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