Status of night tandem jumps...

[matthewcline 0]

BUT If the Gear Manf has a contract with you and you break it, your setting them up if they do not take action against you.

Other than making more money, I personally see no benefit that out ways the risk.

Of course the post omitting the additional reg was a nice set up.

If it is OK in Australia fine, but as of now it is not OK in the US by our Association.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[timmyfitz 0]

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In australia; the rules on night jumps are as follows;

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Night descents

5.5.1. Night descents shall be restricted to holders of Certificate "C". However, a Chief Instructor or ASO may approve holders of Certificate "B" of outstanding competence, reliability and commonsense. Such approval is to be endorsed in the parachutist's log.

5.5.2. Night descents shall be made only under the following conditions:

(a) The aircraft is operated to Night VMC or IFR procedures;
(b) An approved lighted or luminous altimeter is worn;
(c) An approved flashlight is carried attached to the parachutist;
(d) Each parachutist has completed a course of instruction covering all aspects of night descents. (Instructor to endorse the parachutist's log.);
(e) The target area is illuminated so that it is clearly visible throughout the descent;
(f) Ground wind speed is below 12 knots.

Are you saying the tandem passenger holds a certificate per 5.5.1?

Are you saying a tandem student (in the U.S.) has an A license or greater when they jump in winds greater than 14MPH?

[riggerpaul 1]

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In australia; the rules on night jumps are as follows;

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Night descents

5.5.1. Night descents shall be restricted to holders of Certificate "C". However, a Chief Instructor or ASO may approve holders of Certificate "B" of outstanding competence, reliability and commonsense. Such approval is to be endorsed in the parachutist's log.

5.5.2. Night descents shall be made only under the following conditions:

(a) The aircraft is operated to Night VMC or IFR procedures;
(b) An approved lighted or luminous altimeter is worn;
(c) An approved flashlight is carried attached to the parachutist;
(d) Each parachutist has completed a course of instruction covering all aspects of night descents. (Instructor to endorse the parachutist's log.);
(e) The target area is illuminated so that it is clearly visible throughout the descent;
(f) Ground wind speed is below 12 knots.

Are you saying the tandem passenger holds a certificate per 5.5.1?

Are you saying a tandem student (in the U.S.) has an A license or greater when they jump in winds greater than 14MPH?

USPA wind limits are for SOLO students.

[hallux 0]

the fact that wind limits are different for solo students and tandem "students" clearly shows that the USPA and every reasonable human on earth makes a distinction between REAL students and tandem "students". If a experienced instructor is trusted with making his own wind limits then why not trusted to do a night tandem. High winds are more dangerous than well planned night jumps.

[skydive4u2 0]

What threat ? I simply invited him to identify himself, instead of hiding behind a internet connection with NO NAME. I just do not like people who accuse someone of something and do not admit who is doing the accusing. Anything I got to say, I will say it and say who is saying it.

Let's have some FUN !!!

[riggerpaul 1]

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the fact that wind limits are different for solo students and tandem "students" clearly shows that the USPA and every reasonable human on earth makes a distinction between REAL students and tandem "students". If a experienced instructor is trusted with making his own wind limits then why not trusted to do a night tandem. High winds are more dangerous than well planned night jumps.

Maybe you weren't really talking to me.

I have not made or posted any judgment regarding night tandems.

rhys posted regulations that seemed to me to prohibit night tandems in his locale, though he posted those regulations as evidence that night tandems are legal legal for him.

I asked for clarification.

He quoted another regulation that answered my question, and I am satisfied with his answer.

timmyfitz asked about violating USPA student wind limits.

I pointed out that USPA student wind limits apply specifically to solo students.

If your question was posted to the world, then fine.

If your question was to me, you are asking the wrong person.

I am not trying to argue about night tandems one way or the other.

[skydive4u2 0]

Sure, I invited her to Cedartown to jump. That is where I jump. I have NEVER told her there is no DZ in Alabama. On the very first time I talked to her SHE told ME about YOU and the dropzone in Cullman, Alabama where you jump. You had ALREADY told her several times, so how could I say there is no DZ in North Alabama. I know about Cullman. I have been there many times. I like everybody there. I have many people there who I consider my friends. I have known Curley for many years. He is a great guy. I have NEVER said anything bad about him or the DZ. I do not do that. I simply met the girl and invited her to the DZ where I jump at, just like I would expect YOU to do if you met someone. I am a SKYDIVER, not a polititian. I DO NOT get into the pissing contest of "this dropzone against that DZ".Nobody has EVER heard me try to take up for Skyride. I do not work at Skyride. I work and jump at ASC. I frequently invite people to come there and jump. I do NOT, however, say anything bad about other dropzones. I even tell young jumpers at my dropzone they SHOULD go and jump at other dropzones and meet other jumpers. I myself frequently go to other dropzones. Who wants to be stuck at the same place all the time ? Sorry if this is long, but it pisses me off when people assume that just because I jump at another DZ than theirs I must be a bad person. Meyby we will meet each other some time. I am sure I will think you are a nice person and I would hope you think the same about me. Blue skies.

Let's have some FUN !!!

[skydive4u2 0]

Thank you, Billy.

Let's have some FUN !!!

[Andy9o8 0]

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No threats. Your one warning.

I didn't see any threats.

Viewing the context of the entire post: by putting the word "talk" inside quotation marks, he converted an ambiguous statement into an implied threat.

Appeal denied; the ruling of the lower court is affirmed.

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Don't make faces at the Court.

[mjosparky 3]

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the fact that wind limits are different for solo students and tandem "students" clearly shows that the USPA and every reasonable human on earth makes a distinction between REAL students and tandem "students". If a experienced instructor is trusted with making his own wind limits then why not trusted to do a night tandem. High winds are more dangerous than well planned night jumps.

Solo students are flying their own very lightly loaded canopy while a tandem student has and licensed TI flying a more heavily loaded canopy. I don’t always see eye to eye with USPA but seems reasonable. And no, higher winds, within reason, are not a dangerous as flying a tandem at night.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[hallux 0]

wow! thanks for telling me the difference between tandem and solo Just so you know tandems arent always more heavily loaded. and high winds versus well organized night jumps is a matter of opinion and experience. I believe they can be close to the same playing field. I mean you just used wingloading and experience to justify tandems in higher winds. I believe the same could be done for night jumps. You just made my point for me.

[skydive4u2 0]

Well, Andy, wouldn't you want to "talk" to someone if they did not even know you and called you a liar. I am at that DZ every week, and I know what is or is not happing there. I even stated that night tamdems did at one time happen. They no longer are being done.Not for several years.I doubt he is there, so who is he to call me a liar ? He is not even man enough to admit who he is. How much would you trust someone who will not even tell you his name ?

Let's have some FUN !!!

[Andy9o8 0]

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Well, Andy, wouldn't you want to "talk" to someone if they did not even know you and called you a liar. I am at that DZ every week, and I know what is or is not happing there. I even stated that night tamdems did at one time happen. They no longer are being done.Not for several years.I doubt he is there, so who is he to call me a liar ? He is not even man enough to admit who he is. How much would you trust someone who will not even tell you his name ?

You lost your temper, which may be understandable. The implied threat got you a warning per the forum rules, and properly so

It's pretty easy to lose one's temper on here. I have, and a couple times when I rose too much to the bait, it earned me a warning. Come to think of it, one time it earned me a 2-week vacation from SC. It happens. Chalk it up as a learning experience, and move on.

[riggerrob 558]

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.... High winds are more dangerous than well planned night jumps.

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High winds are precisely why I don't enjoy doing night jumps.
Given that winds always shift after sunset, and given the GPS spotting skills of our pilots, it is impossible to predict whether I will land on the regular DZ (Pitt Meadows Airport), or in some distant farmer's field surrounded by wires.
Winds aloft forecasts are always "educated guesses" and we never really know what winds are doing until after we watch the first load land.
I hate to tell you how many hundred times I have retrieved tandems from the far end of the airport!

Unpredictable winds vastly increase the risk of landing "out" which is why I have not done a night tandem in the last decade.

[skydive4u2 0]

Yeah, you are right. However, being a lawyer, I figured you would understand me wanting the right to confront my accuser, some ananymous jerk that wants to call someone names and does not even have the balls to admit who is doing the name calling. "Somebody" told him one thing. I told him something different, and he wants to call me a liar.I was actually there. HE was not. Maybe there should be a rule on this forum about calling someone a bad name.

Let's have some FUN !!!

[skydive4u2 0]

That is true. Another reason I never did night tandems is that if I happen to have a cut-a-way, I got a good chance I will never find my main canopy. At night , you would have a lot less idea where it landed. Would be a very expensive jump for me.

Let's have some FUN !!!

[Andy9o8 0]

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Yeah, you are right. However, being a lawyer, I figured you would understand me wanting the right to confront my accuser, some ananymous jerk that wants to call someone names and does not even have the balls to admit who is doing the name calling.

Oh, I do. I also understand that sometimes the Judge has to warn us to cool our jets when we're out there for everyone to see and hear.

[mjosparky 3]

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wow! thanks for telling me the difference between tandem and solo Just so you know tandems arent always more heavily loaded. and high winds versus well organized night jumps is a matter of opinion and experience. I believe they can be close to the same playing field. I mean you just used wingloading and experience to justify tandems in higher winds. I believe the same could be done for night jumps. You just made my point for me.

And I gave you my opinion. And my experience tells me night jumps in any form present greater potential for problems then landing in reasonable winds. A TI can use his experience and judgment to determine reasonable winds. Experience and judgment will not change the fact that a night jump is done in the dark.
Glad to help you out on the solo/tandem thing.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[diablopilot 2]

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wow! thanks for telling me the difference between tandem and solo Just so you know tandems arent always more heavily loaded. and high winds versus well organized night jumps is a matter of opinion and experience. I believe they can be close to the same playing field. I mean you just used wingloading and experience to justify tandems in higher winds. I believe the same could be done for night jumps. You just made my point for me.

You're not that good.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[skydive4u2 0]

I have been warned. Ok. I will not do it again. But will you please explain to me how he can call other people assholes, he can call me a liar , and I have read many threads on here in whice people are called cocksuckers, mother fuckers, son of a bitches and many other things and no warnings. But I put the word talk in italics and I get a warning. Seems a little off balance to me. I do not know where you live, but around here calling someone those things would cause a lot more trouble than a word in italics. Just wondering. Would YOU get more upset about someone calling YOU these names or the italics around the word talk. Again, I WILL go by your rules, but I think HE should have been spoken to also. Or, do the rules only apply to people who happen to LIKE ASC ?

Let's have some FUN !!!

[riggerrob 558]

Isuspect that USPA says very little about night tandem jumps for the same reason that they say very little about blast handles.

Fore xample, MIL SPEC blast handles were briefly fashionable in the late-1970s, but after too many people died because they could not pull them, because they were installed different than their original military design, USPA banned blast handles.

A few years later - after blast handles disappeared - USPA deleted the BSR banning blast handles, because it was cluttering up the BSRs and the problem had disappeared.

A similar logic explains why USPA BSRs say very little about night tandem jumps. Tandem manufacturers have always frowned upon night tandem jumps. Ergo very few USPA-affiliated DZs ever did night tandem jumps, ergo night tandem jumps are outside of normal operating procedures, ergo there is little point to mention night tandem jumps in USPA BSRs.

IOW Night tandem jumps are not mentioned in USPA BSRs, because most USPA-rated instructors consider night tandem jumps to be too difficult and too dangerous.

IOW Maybe night tandem jumps are not mentioned in USPA BSRs because the vast majority of USPA-affiliated TIs consider night tandem jumps to be silly.

Rob Warner
Strong Tandem Examiner with more than 4300 tandem jumps

[mjosparky 3]

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Isuspect that USPA says very little about night tandem jumps for the same reason that they say very little about blast handles.

Fore xample, MIL SPEC blast handles were briefly fashionable in the late-1970s, but after too many people died because they could not pull them, because they were installed different than their original military design, USPA banned blast handles.

A few years later - after blast handles disappeared - USPA deleted the BSR banning blast handles, because it was cluttering up the BSRs and the problem had disappeared.

Rob,

The real reason USPA backed away from “Blast Handles” is it dawned on them they had no authority to ban anything much less a TSO’d item. While some blasé handles were “after market” the the majority were on rigs TSO’d with the Blast Handle. It wasn’t the first time USPA stepped on their dick and as we have seen recently it wasn’t there last.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[riggerrob 558]

First of all, blast handles started as MIL SPEC.
I don't know if blast handles were ever mentioned in a civilian TSO.
The problem arose when civilians started installing blast handles differently than the military ever intended.
TSO testing standards were a bit ... "vague" back in the 1970s.

But I do have to agree with you that USPA has stepped on their !@#$ multiple times. Just ask Jan Meyer about how USPA handled Skyride and her!
Hah!
Hah!

[JerryBaumchen 1,046]

Hi Rob,

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I don't know if blast handles were ever mentioned in a civilian TSO.

They first appeared on the CrossBow rig in ~'65. Originally, the XBO rig used a handle known as a Lollipop but due to one death ( actual cause unknown other than failure to pull ) and some bad-mouthing, Security switched to the blast handle.

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TSO testing standards were a bit ... "vague" back in the 1970s.

They were far easier to understand than a current TSO document; and if you like the current document, wait until you see the next generation.

JerryBaumchen

[NickDG 23]

Anti-Windblast handles worked fine when you pulled like you're supposed to pull any ripcord handle - in a direction in-line with the ripcord housing. And that was if they were drilled out or not. And for the times they were the most snag resistant type handle available. There were some issues with the non-drilled out blast handles when jumpers tried pulling them at right angles, and a few other early jumpers mistook their open Capewell covers for the blast handle. I think it was the Brits (BPA) who banned them first then USPA followed suit like little ducklings.

What was really dangerous was a lot of people switched over to those white plastic reserve handles with the thin center post (because they were cheap) but as soon as the weather turned cold when the handle hit the swedge during a pull they shattered like glass . . .

NickD