NewUSPA Age rule, Tandems, 16 with notarized consent-Will your DZ use it?

[AndyAnderson 0]

All RWS rating holders can now feel free to follow Bill Booth's example and ignore his previous words "The risk is simply much greater than the reward. Fight the temptation,
and please make the right decision for all of us. "
You have done great things for skydiving but you have lost your credibility.

How many TI's who have been found by RWS to have done under-age tandems were blackmailed into paying a donation (fine) to RWS.
Bill after you broke your own rules you owe that money (if you ever collected their donations) back to every one of those TI's.

A few of those TI's that action was taken against did not know their passengers were under-age but were held responsible for not checking their ages. You knew your daughters age and in spite of all the "advise" and threats you gave us you broke your own rules.

'So I issued an exemption to Relative Workshop's rule. I would have done the same for any experience tandem instructor parent who wanted to jump their 17 year old into such a momentous event." It is good to know you can exempt yourself from your own rules but what action would you take against yourself if you had not got your exemption.
That is so assanine.

Do not be surprised when others follow your example!


Andy.
Edited to add: Where are the exemption applications to any of the clauses in the rating rules or the "end user agreement" or we just issue our own exemptions to ourselves after we do anything "momentous"? Or the exemptions only available to skygods through a secret system, I can not find the exemptions at your web site.

[riggerrob 558]

This whole argument makes as much sense as CSPA's long-winded debate over who should be allowed to jump without a helmet.
By the time the noise died down, it ceased to be an issue, because skydiving fashion had changed to the point that all the "cool" skydivers wore full-face helmets.
This amendment to USPA policy came years after ugly, replusive, low-life, bottom-feeding, scum-sucking, American lawyers made it obscenely expensive to take any risk with any minor.

I also agree with an earlier post about the risk of sexual harassment lawsuits. Teenagers have sex on the brain, but the real legal danger involves jealous boyfriends/fiances/over-protective parents.

[A2C 0]

So, is it OK to use Vector student rig for underage AFF student if she is not your doughter?

[lug 4]

Good thread, keep it going. There are lots of good points brought up on both sides of the line.

I feel if the DZO has no problem with minors jumping at their DZ, then they should be able to let them jump. I do hope the DZO, and or aircraft owners do make the effort to check the state’s liability laws that they do business in, to see of the waiver that is sign by a legal guardian, is valid.

I would be interest in knowing how some states view a liability waiver that was signed by a legal guardian, in the interest of a minor, once the minor becomes 18, an adult. Is the liability waiver still binding contract?

Quote

Will your DZ use it?

NO

Memento Mori

[ojf1982 0]

I just came back from a trip to Europe where I stopped at the dropzone in Empuriabrava where I actually saw a 7 year old little girl doing a tandem and also kids that were 10 and 12 year olds doing tandems. I was to say the least very suprised to see kids that young doing tandems. Alot different mentality than is here in the states.

The edge ... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who know where it is are those that have gone over - Hunter S. Thompson

[dragon2 0]

Quote

I just came back from a trip to Europe where I stopped at the dropzone in Empuriabrava where I actually saw a 7 year old little girl doing a tandem and also kids that were 10 and 12 year olds doing tandems. I was to say the least very suprised to see kids that young doing tandems. Alot different mentality than is here in the states.

Youngest kid I know of at our DZ to do a tandem: 5. Youngest kid at our dz (probably in the whole of Holland too) to do a night-tandem: 9. Youngest kid to do a tandem in Holland: 3 (I think). All these are tm's/videographers/dzo's kids, but if a kid fits into the small harness, he/she can go.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[dubbayab 0]

Aggie Dave, I know neither of us are laywers, and as you wrote that TX. law would consider the waiver void cause the student is not of consenting age. However if the parent signs the waiver dosen't that put you in a contract with the parent (audlt of legal age) and not with the student?

WB

[AggieDave 6]

Yup, which would be useful if the parent was jumping, unfortunately in TX (as I understand it not being a lawyer), a minor (anyone under 18) can not enter into any sort of legal contract, that includes the parents signing one for the child. Even with a noterized signed consent, its worthless, even if every living relative signed, it is worthless. The dead would rise from the grave and sue...well, not really, but the state could.

Well, that's as I know it...I need to find a Texas lawyer who jumps to answer these sorts of questions on DZ.com...

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[matthewcline 0]

As of 11/17/10 all THREE Tandem Rig Manufacturers have asked the USPA to change the BSR BACK to the Age Of Majority or 18, which ever is higher.

This letter they wrote went to ALL members of the BOD and the FAA.

Plus it means that all Three Rig Manufacturers are of the same mind and all Tandem Rig jumps are to be conducted with 18 year olds or age of majority or higher.

So the Rigs are to be jumped in accordance with the Manufacturers Rules (UPT has ALWAYS been this way) and in Jan the BSR will more than likely change to support that for all.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[Ron 7]

I will not take a person under the age of majority.
I have been asked and have said no.

With the 2 systems I am qualified on both saying not to do it.... It would just automatically lose any lawsuit.

Shame, but that is the way the US legal system works.

As for Mullins and Booth taking their kids... Cool. I have several jumps with Charlie before he was old enough to be jumping.

But, in both cases they are more than just jumpers and instructors. In Booth's case he is the guy that owns the rig, owns the company that makes the rig, is the instructor... Etc.

There are several friends kids I'd love to be able to take jumping, but the US liability issues prevent that from happening.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[jtiflyer 0]

you do realize that there are more than 3 manufacturers of tandem systems in the US right?

just sayin

[matthewcline 0]

Still Producing:
Jump Shack = Racer Tandem
Strong = Strong Dual Hawk Tandem
UPT = Vector II and SIGMA

No longer producing:

Stunts Manufacturing = Stunts Eclipse Tandem

Who else?

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[Para5-0 0]

Last summer, I contacted USPA about a TI taking his daughter on a tandem at age 16. I, similar to all TI's, had some confusion about what could and could not be done. A ranking BOD member (nameless) advised me as the S&TA, that a TI could take a 16 year old on a tandem and it was a grey area with the manufacturers. Specifically stated, "they frown upon it but you can absolutely do it". We/I chose not to take on the extra liability and did not allow the jump. We currently, adhere to the 18 years of age to perform a tandem jump.
Point I am making: It will depend on who is on the board and their personal thoughts on the topic.
I agree, there should be clarity on the topic for DZO's, TI's, S&TA's

[matthewcline 0]

Well in reading the letter from the Manufacturers and watching the BOD meeting video (where the BOD and Manufacturers agreed to each retain the right to revoke ratings), if the BOD does not agree, the Manufacturers will take the Tandem Program back or just get out of the civilian tandem business.

All this because a handful of folks are putting dollar before liability and others are doing things (CRW, VRW etc) against the Manufacturers rules.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[Para5-0 0]

I also spoke to the manufacturer who made it abundantly clear they do not want anything to do with the instructor end of it. In fact they want uspa to take it over. That is why you do not need to renew your manufacture rating unless you are a I/E, or your DZ requires it. Which we do for liability purposes.

Note: That is probably a considerable amount of money per year to be turning down. It must not be worth the trouble.

[matthewcline 0]

I spoke to Bill about the same thing.
But he also said he can not risk law suits due to USPA not sticking with the "Age Of Majority" rule and not enforcing the rules they currently have.

I agree that the Manufacturers should not have to deal with Instructor Ratings and eventually Examiners as well, it should fall to USPA, or an association like it.

But obviously with this letter they do not feel USPA is ready to take it all over yet.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[freestyleleigh 0]

[rhys 0]

Quote

Yup, which would be useful if the parent was jumping, unfortunately in TX (as I understand it not being a lawyer), a minor (anyone under 18) can not enter into any sort of legal contract, that includes the parents signing one for the child. Even with a noterized signed consent, its worthless, even if every living relative signed, it is worthless. The dead would rise from the grave and sue...well, not really, but the state could.

Well, that's as I know it...I need to find a Texas lawyer who jumps to answer these sorts of questions on DZ.com...

and there you have it, bullshit litigation takes over from common sense once again.

I am so happy we do not have the same level of legal issues here as you guys have, we took a group of indians the other day and and 7 of them were under 18, as young as 11. one of the 11 year olds went twice, was more coherent than his parents, more relaxed and enjoyed it immensly.

What difference does it make if someone is 15 or 18....or 88.

I understand the manufacturers not wanting a grey area there, as they have probably all felt the sting of litigation at some pont or another.

But in reality if a person want to go that is under 18 and they have the permission from thier parents, then who has the right to say they cannot do that.

Is america not the land of the free?

At what age can on hire purchase goods in USA is that also 18?

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[matthewcline 0]

It is those same parents who then go and sue the DZ, Instructor, the rig builder and USPA.

So the Manufacturers say no one under the "Age of Majority", PERIOD, in the USA. Since in the USA we parents can not sign away our Child's rights.

I did not under stand your last sentence, but it seems like your asking can a person under the "Age of Majority" sign a contract to purchase good, like a car motorcycle etc? The short answer is, No.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[rhys 0]

Hi Matt.

I said nothing about signing away any rights.

This is about 'permission' to jump from a plane.

If an incident happened and there was neglegence, then no matter how old or young the passenger is, there could be a lawsuit.

From what I understand you are telling me, until you are 18 years old in america (21 in some places), the govenment and legal system has more to say about what you can and cannot do than your parents have?



Land of the free; my ass.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[labrys 0]

Quote

the govenment and legal system has more to say about what you can and cannot do than your parents have?

In some cases, yes. The government can't tell a 16 year old that they can't skydive, but they do mandate that the 16 year old can't sign a legal contract to waive their rights.

Owned by Remi #?

[matthewcline 0]

The whole point of the letter is about "Minors Rights" and how a parent or legal guardian has no authority to sign those away.

The parent or legal guardian can not sign away the minors rights to allow them to jump from an airplane and make a skydive.

In America until your the "Legal Age of Majority" you have rights that can not be signed away by your Parent or guardian.

Yes I have gathered you have a low regard for the USA, fine. This issue doesn't affect your Tandem Mil, unless your using SIGMA's and UPT gets sued out of business one day because a underage Tandem STUDENT was hurt on a Tandem INSTRUCTION Jump in the USA.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[rhys 0]

Quote

The whole point of the letter is about "Minors Rights" and how a parent or legal guardian has no authority to sign those away.

The parent or legal guardian can not sign away the minors rights to allow them to jump from an airplane and make a skydive.

So the minor cannot decide for himself or herself whether or not they can jump from a plane at age 16. and their parents cannot also, so.....

The government decides.

Quote

In America until your the "Legal Age of Majority" you have rights that can not be signed away by your Parent or guardian.

You appear to be mistaken, if you cannot decide for yourself that you want to jump from a plane and sign a waiver saying you accept the risk, then you are not yet afforded that right. So the government decides.

Quote

Yes I have gathered you have a low regard for the USA, fine.

You are mistaken, I have a low regard for any misuse if freedom, whichever place it may originate.

If you want to bundle yourself in one pile with all those in your country that commit crimes, fraud and corruption / put words in my mouth, Fine.

I like to think each person is an individual, wherever they come from. And each individual has (should have) the right to decide for themselves what they can or cannot do that is within the law, If one is too young to decide that, then it is (Should be) up to their parents, but the child should have to agree.

Quote

This issue doesn't affect your Tandem Mil, unless your using SIGMA's and UPT gets sued out of business one day because a underage Tandem STUDENT was hurt on a Tandem INSTRUCTION Jump in the USA.

My customers all have fun and they decide for themselves whether they jump or not, My government does not interfere, litigation does not interfere.

If someone wants to jump from a plane and they are big enough for the harness, and they are willing to pay then so be it. We don't make people jump, they decide.

If they say they don't want to jump, they can ride the plane down, simple.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[rhys 0]

Quote

In some cases, yes. The government can't tell a 16 year old that they can't skydive, but they do mandate that the 16 year old can't sign a legal contract to waive their rights.

This is the most correct and informative answer, Thanks.

It appears your government is in control of what your youth do and not the parents.

This is far from freedom, That is my point.

My wife was 13 when she did her first tandem, by 16 she had done 6 (all paid by her, by working after school), on her 16th birthday she was up on stage 2 aff (she had already done stage 1 on a tandem).
She left school at 16 to pursue a career in skydiving, her school teacher told her she would fail and that it was not possible to make a living out of skydiving.

By 18 she had 1000 jumps and was earning 50k+ a year ( 15k more than her teacher) doing tandem videos. Now she has jumped on all continents except antarctica, has 2 world records, multipule national records, has competed at the world championships 3 times and is owner of 2 skydiving based LLC's at the age or 26.

I didn't even start jumping until 27.

Seems stupid that this could not (legally) happen in the land of the free. (even though it does and has happened there)

s'all I'm, sayin.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[labrys 0]

Quote

Seems stupid that this could not (legally) happen in the land of the free. (even though it does and has happened there)

Seems like you are being deliberately obtuse.

It's 100% "legal" for a 5 year old to make a tandem or AFF jump in the US. The only restraint the government enforces is that an adult can't waive the rights of a child and a child can't sign a legal contract.

Owned by Remi #?