NewUSPA Age rule, Tandems, 16 with notarized consent-Will your DZ use it?

[Andy9o8 0]

Quote

Quote

Seems stupid that this could not (legally) happen in the land of the free. (even though it does and has happened there)

Seems like you are being deliberately obtuse.

It's 100% "legal" for a 5 year old to make a tandem or AFF jump in the US. The only restraint the government enforces is that an adult can't waive the rights of a child and a child can't sign a legal contract.

That's it, 100%, right there.
Any further "spin" of this would indeed be deliberately obtuse.

[normiss 620]

Technically he's 100% correct.

[Andy9o8 0]

Quote

Technically he's 100% correct.

Labrys is.

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

Technically he's 100% correct.

Technically, you have put your foot in your mouth.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[timmyfitz 0]

Quote

Quote

Seems stupid that this could not (legally) happen in the land of the free. (even though it does and has happened there)

Seems like you are being deliberately obtuse.

You are now familiar with his debate style.

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Seems stupid that this could not (legally) happen in the land of the free. (even though it does and has happened there)

Seems like you are being deliberately obtuse.

You are now familiar with his debate style.

And his extreme hatred of anything to do with the US. Although I bet he jumps gear made in the US.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[normiss 620]

That's what I said.


There is nothing 'illegal' about underage tandems.
The implications legally, professionally, USPA ratings, and manufacturer ratings following an underage tandem is another world entirely.

[rhys 0]

Quote

That's what I said.
Unimpressed

There is nothing 'illegal' about underage tandems.
The implications legally, professionally, USPA ratings, and manufacturer ratings following an underage tandem is another world entirely.

???

So, I am trying to get my head around this.

It is not illegal, BUT (and it is a big but)

In order to take a tandem one will have a waiver, this waiver needs to be signed, if it is not signed and something (neglagent or not) happens, then the Customer that is injured due to this incident can then sure the ass off the operation.

Therefore;

All operations have a waiver, and it is not legal for a parent to sign a waiver for their child in the USA?

Correct?

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[matthewcline 0]

In the USA it is not illegal to take any one, regardless of age, on a Tandem Jump.

But it is not legal for a parent or guardian to sign away a minors rights.

And of course in the USA it has become a "requirement" to have a waiver of rights signed before any high risk activity is participated in. Even in School Sports Programs one has to sign a waiver. In the US the Court system has ruled over and over again that the Minors Rights can not be waived.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[rhys 0]

Quote

Seems like you are being deliberately obtuse.

You are now familiar with his debate style.

And his extreme hatred of anything to do with the US. Although I bet he jumps gear made in the US.

There are plenty of dickheads here in New Zeland, as much as there are plenty of dickheads there in the USA.

Pointing out a dickhead is not the same as calling that whole country a bunch of dickheads. This is reason you seem reluctant to accept.

This single minded attitude you have towards my ability to voice my opinion, is far from what your constitution suggests you do.

I do not hate america, Amercia has plenty of great things, there are also plenty of dickheads there that wish to spoil its reputation however and seem to be doing a great job of it. But you get that when you have 300 million people. There will be a vast array of different attitudes and a raised level of corruption and greed due to the amount of money and power that comes with the administration of such a huge amount of people.

Fortunatly I can see through that and don't hold all the american people accountable, in fact I have A LOT of american friends, A LOT of them, so this in itself renders your statement not only biased but severely inaccurate.

I suggest you stick to the subject (which is not me by the way).

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[labrys 0]

Quote

All operations have a waiver

Negative. Not all operations have waivers.

It's also illegal for a parent to sign away a minor's rights in most developed countries, not just the US.

What are NZ's laws in that respect?

Owned by Remi #?

[rhys 0]

Quote

n the USA it is not illegal to take any one, regardless of age, on a Tandem Jump.

But it is not legal for a parent or guardian to sign away a minors rights.

And of course in the USA it has become a "requirement" to have a waiver of rights signed before any high risk activity is participated in. Even in School Sports Programs one has to sign a waiver. In the US the Court system has ruled over and over again that the Minors Rights can not be waived.

Matt

So where it may not be against the Law, it is against the rules.

So in either case a minor is unable to jump due to the legality of it all.

In New Zealand (and many other countries) it is legal for a parent to sign a waiver on behalf of their child, so in turn this makes it possible for minors to jump tandem.

So really we are just dancing around semantics, as if it were not for that particular law in the USA, minors would be jumping all over the place.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[labrys 0]

Quote

So in either case a minor is unable to jump due to the legality of it all.

Minors are able to jump and they do.

Why is that so hard for you to understand?

It's also legal in the US for a parent to sign a waiver for a child. The parent assumes the contract's obligations, ie, waiving the right to sue, but they can't waive the child's right to sue. That's also common in other countries....

And yet there are, regardless of the potential legal issues, places that allow minors to jump.

Those that are USPA members usually stick to the BSRs and keep the minimum age at 16.

Some that are not USPA members will take minors much younger than 16. And it's perfectly legal.

Is that clear enough?

Owned by Remi #?

[Andy9o8 0]

Quote

So really we are just dancing around semantics,

No; actually, just you are. The rest of us have had enough of your nonsense.

[Andy9o8 0]

Quote

Why is that so hard for you to understand?

He understands perfectly well. He's trolling at this point. Feed him, or not.

[matthewcline 0]

Which is what has been typed in all these related threads for years.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[rhys 0]

Quote

Negative. Not all operations have waivers.

Who doesn't then, there are 300+DZ's in NA I have been to only a handful.

If a DZ does not have a waiver, they run the risk of litigation if something routine was to happen.

But then they could take minors legally.

I doubt there are very many DZ's that do not have waivers, some even video you when you sign and get you to make a statement on the said video.

Quote

It's also illegal for a parent to sign away a minor's rights in most developed countries, not just the US.

What are NZ's laws in that respect?

As far as I am aware, a waiver does not sign away any rights, it simply states that the individual is aware of the risk they are accepting by participating in the said activity.

If neglegence was to occur with or without a waiver, then the partcipant is well within thier rights to pursue legal action.

The difference between NZ and USA in this respect is the amount of compenstaion, I am yet to see or hear of a situation where someone sues another party and is compensated with millions of dollars in NZ, but it is talked about on a daily basis in the USA.

We don't have wording about rights and the removal of them.

We have wording about the assumtion of risk.

If I was to kill someone or injure someone, there will be legal proceedings if there was neglegence involved, whether or not a waiver is signed.

That is why I don't understand what the fuss is about.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[rhys 0]

Quote

Minors are able to jump and they do.

Why is that so hard for you to understand?

It's also legal in the US for a parent to sign a waiver for a child. The parent assumes the contract's obligations, ie, waiving the right to sue, but they can't waive the child's right to sue. That's also common in other countries....

And yet there are, regardless of the potential legal issues, places that allow minors to jump.

Those that are USPA members usually stick to the BSRs and keep the minimum age at 16.

Some that are not USPA members will take minors much younger than 16. And it's perfectly legal.

Is that clear enough?

It is perfectly clear, and always has been.

The diffence you all seem to be ignoring is that here in NZ a Guardian can sign a waiver so we can be following all the rules and take minors.

You are saying that it is legal to take minors in the USA if you DO NOT follow the rules.

USPA BSR's do not apply in New Zealand, so we can take minirs AND follow the rules.

Big Difference.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[rhys 0]

Quote

No; actually, just you are. The rest of us have had enough of your nonsense.

Hey Guy,

By the rest of us do you mean everyone that reads these forums?

Or just the few that have replied?

Or those that PM me rather than posting here to avoid being attacked by the post whore gremlins?

Or everyone in America?

Or what?

what is you definition of;

Quote

The rest of us have had enough of your nonsense.

Seems like you are the grand poobah or something.

Where is your opinion on the subject? Which by the way is not me.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[labrys 0]

Quote

USPA BSR's do not apply in New Zealand, so we can take minirs AND follow the rules.

USPA BSRs do not apply to non USPA dropzones in the US, so they can take minors AND follow the rules.

Oh wait.... the aren't any "rules" for non USPA dropzones.

Owned by Remi #?

[matthewcline 0]

Quote

Oh wait.... the aren't any "rules" for non USPA dropzones.

Other than the Manufacturer's rules for tandems, at the moment.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[rhys 0]

Quote

USPA BSRs do not apply to non USPA dropzones in the US, so they can take minors AND follow the rules.

O.k. now we are getting somewhere.

So is there a Rule/law that a dropzone must belong to and organising entity such as the USPA?

We have what is called CAA part 149 (sport Aviation) organisations, there are 3 of them in NZ and each DZ must belong to one of them in order to oerate legally.

The Part 149 organisations are then answerable to the CAA.

Soon this will be changed to the new Part 115 (adventure aviation) due to the commercial aspect of skydiving in NZ.

This will essentially remove the existance if the Part 149 organisations and each DZ will be directly associated with the CAA.

So I guess my question is this;

Are the DZ's that are not USPA, affiliated with another organisation similar to the USPA? or are they just operating independantly?

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[labrys 0]

Quote

So is there a Rule/law that a dropzone must belong to and oprgasnising entity such as the USPA?

No.

Are the DZ's that are not USPA, affiliated with another organisation similar to the USPA? or are they just operating independantly?

Independently.

Owned by Remi #?

[rhys 0]

Quote

No.

Are the DZ's that are not USPA, affiliated with another organisation similar to the USPA? or are they just operating independantly?

Independently.

Wow!

This explains the ambiguity of the rules there pertaining to the age of the participants.

As much as regulation can get in the way sometimes, lack of regulation can damage the reputation of the activity and make it less accessable to everyone. By some having the right to do things that are forbidden by rules for another.

When something is regulated the grey areas are removed and we wouldn't be having this converstation.

Surely there is some code in the FAA rules that cover the requirements of a dropzone?

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[Andy9o8 0]

No matter how many times you answer, he's going to keep asking until you finally pass out from lack of sleep.