TALONSKY 0 #1 March 15, 2004 I am fairlly new tandem instructor(only 22 live tandems)during the course for Strong I was taught to make the harness fit fairly tight. As a gage you should only be able to get 2 finger under the hardness at the shoulders. I had a female student this weekend make a comment about how tight the harness was adjusted, and I looked it over and it seemed fine, but then I started to notice the other TM's had their harness's adjusted fairly loose. The next day I went over the training material and everything back's up what I am doing. So the question is how tight do other TM adjust their student's harness? Oh just for your info we use Strong Enterpise's Dual Hawk rigs with articulated student harness. Thanks Kirk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slotperfect 7 #2 March 15, 2004 Like you, I adjust them snugly, according to the manufacturer's instructions. Check out THIS THREADArrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #3 March 15, 2004 Was this under canopy or prior to jumping? Undercanopy you should make the student more comfortable. Slide the leg straps to the upper-mid portion of their thigh so they're in a more seated position. Especially with female passengers, I'll loosen the cheststrap up a bit to take the pressure off of, well, important things.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nightjumps 1 #4 March 15, 2004 Quoteadjusted fairly loose How tight and much time do you want to spend in the event of an emergency bailout? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TALONSKY 0 #5 March 15, 2004 Her comment was made prior to boarding the plane. After we are under canopy I will let them know if they are uncomfortable that they can slide the leg straps forward to a more seated position, AggieDave, I like that idea of loosening the chest strap under canopy I could see that helping on the comfort level. Kirk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TALONSKY 0 #6 March 15, 2004 Well I perfer to have the student ready for a skydive (meaning harness fully adjusted) before boarding the plane. What I am trying to find out is if by some chance I am over tightening the harness on the students? or if other TM's vary from it being tight to a looser fit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #7 March 15, 2004 Quote"only 22 live tandems" You have taken some dead ones? ***Students will sometimes complain. Adjust the harness as you see fit for safety. With just 22, trust me, you'll hear alot more.... Just be safewww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #8 March 15, 2004 QuoteAggieDave, I like that idea of loosening the chest strap under canopy I could see that helping on the comfort level. Be VERY sure that you tell your students (especially female students) that you will have to reach infront of them to adjust the harness at certain points. Then under canopy tell the student what you're doing and be VERY VERY careful to only touch the strap and not directly over her breasts.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slotperfect 7 #9 March 15, 2004 QuoteBe VERY sure that you tell your students (especially female students) that you will have to reach in front of them to adjust the harness at certain points. Then under canopy tell the student what you're doing and be VERY VERY careful to only touch the strap and not directly over her breasts. Absolutely. On those occasions I have a rather well-endowed female student, and I can't see the chest strap to loosen it (Sigma harness), I have her put my hands on it. I take great care in being a gentleman and a professional - not out of paranoia, but to make sure nothing takes away from my student's incredible skydiving experience. One more thing . . . occasionally I have a student that is a bit overwhelmed, and is scared when I loosen the chest strap. In those cases, I hold the chest strap hardware so they can see it, and remind them that it's still connected and I simply loosened it.Arrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #10 March 15, 2004 The looser the fit, the more the student moves around in the air, the less control you have. That said, if you shorten the main lift webs too much you will 'crunch' their torso. This will be very uncomfortable (find a rig that is obviously too short for you and try it on for a demonstration). Make sure your student is standing up straight when you size the harness. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TALONSKY 0 #11 March 15, 2004 Thanks for the suggestions; I pretty much try to put the women students at ease when adjusting the harness. I will start a conversation with them(try to get them laughing or just into a conversation) and then I am careful of wear I am touching and also where I am looking to try to put them as ease with the entire process. In the plane prior to doing my gear check, I will let them know I am checking the harness connection points and will be reaching around. So far I have not had much problems I do not think anyway. I really like the idea of having them put your hands on the chest strap when you can not see it to help loosen it. Thanks Kirk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TALONSKY 0 #12 March 15, 2004 The looser the fit, the more the student moves around in the air, the less control you have. That was kind of my thought too, but I just wanted to be sure. Thanks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slotperfect 7 #13 March 16, 2004 QuoteI really like the idea of having them put your hands on the chest strap when you can not see it to help loosen it. Here's another one. When I'm adjusting their leg straps for the initial fit on the ground, and I need some room to make the proper adjustments, I ask them to "spread their feet apart." What I really need is their legs apart so I have the room to make the adjustments, but asking for feet apart is much less likely to offend. It produces the same result anyway.Arrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TALONSKY 0 #14 March 16, 2004 I actually ran across that situation the other weekend. In my mind what I wanted to say was spread your leg but I knew that was not the best way to convey the message. In that instance she saw my wedding ring(yes I wear it skydiving but I always wear gloves so I do not see a high probablity of having any issues with the ring) as I was making my other adjustments and started asking questions about my wife at which point she relax her stance and I was able to make the adjustment. Later that day I asked the S & TA what would be the politically correct way to get their leg apart. He told me to state, “ I need to adjust the leg straps now could you please part your legs a bit”. So far to me that would imply the least sexual connotation so I am going with that. Any of these kind of things can help ease the situation if the female student is uncomfortable with the places we need to be to make the harness fit right. Thanks Kirk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kdsosso 0 #15 March 16, 2004 Sounds like your VERY respectful of your students. This is a great thread that ALL instructors should read. Unfortunately, there are instructors out there who are less professional and see loosing chest straps and leg separation as a free touch, more than safety or trying to get them comfortable. There is a way to be appropriate and safe at the same time. It's nice to see instructors that are aware of the issues Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
boxingrrl 0 #16 March 16, 2004 Another line to use for those legstrap adjustments is something like "We don't want these loose ends flapping around in freefall. Anything that flaps around at 120 mph has a tendency to sting, so I need to get these tucked away...if you could widen your feet and give me some room to work, that would be great." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #17 March 16, 2004 While adjusting harnesses I mumble - half to myself and half to the student - so it sounds like a checklist. That reassures students that I am going through a checklist, a routine, a procedure. They can relate my checklist to the check list that every airline pilot goes through before takeoff. Sometimes I even joke that all the mumbling is either A: a checklist, or B: a conversation with the little green man who lives in the back of the airplane! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kdsosso 0 #18 March 16, 2004 Just wanted to add to my post that I was lucky that ALL my tandem masters and instructors that I had as as a student were very professional and appropriate.....however I have overheard conversations from other instructors that concern me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mfrese 0 #19 March 16, 2004 QuoteBe VERY sure that you tell your students (especially female students) that you will have to reach infront of them to adjust the harness at certain points. Then under canopy tell the student what you're doing and be VERY VERY careful to only touch the strap and not directly over her breasts. And be VERY careful not to do what I did yesterday...went to loosen the chest strap under canopy with a small, slender student. I had tucked the end of the chest strap under the main lift web adjustment strap, so it hung up when I went to loosen the strap. Went to pull back on the friction adapter, my fingers slipped off, and I smacked her right in the mouth! I spent the rest of the canopy ride apologizing, I felt so bad...fortunately, it wasn't really hard, and she was laughing about it on the ground, but I still felt like shit. Always gotta be careful...Doctor I ain't gonna die, Just write me an alibi! ---- Lemmy/Slash Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
linestretch 0 #20 March 16, 2004 he he, I did the same but on the leg strap friction adapter. The hand holding the friction adapter slipped off, and hit her right in the mother nature. I felt bad, and apoligized profusely. She laughed. I think tighter is better...to a certain point. I'll tighten the upper part of the harness while we are hooked up and seated. But remember, it's really what works for YOU. Just becuase jo blow says do it this way, it's the best doesn't mean it works good for you.my pics & stuff! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Schaf 0 #21 March 17, 2004 I have a vector rating, but I'm jumping mainly german rigs called "next". I make two straps very tight - shoulder and back (gives them a good arch from the beginning, hehe). The chest strap I leave rather loose and the leg straps I have as loose as safety allows (if I can slip my flat hand under it, it's fine). Once under canopy I will loose the leg straps and tell the student to pull the strap in the direction of the hollow of the knee, so he/she can rather sit than hang. It has the very positive side effect that they will get their legs up for landing much easier. The reason why I make it rather loose from the beginning (again, as loose as safety allows and yes, when going to the plane we are ready to jump) is to have better blood circulation in the legs. Very tight leg straps might get in the way with blood circulation. Thinking back to my first tandem I loved that tightness of the harness (NO, I'm not in the sado masochistic business ), it gave me a feeling of security. From my (very limited) experience rather older people complain. As for closing the leg strap, I naturally have less problems with women and the men I always tell that I don't want to hamper their family planning, so they have to give me room to work (oh yes, I love that half fearful half expecting look in their eyes ) eva Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #22 March 17, 2004 This whole concept of asking students to adust leg straps after opening is so old-school. If you adjust Sigma or articulated Strong harnesses properly, the question never comes up. Even using the new fitting methods (i.e. putting leg junction at FRONT of hip) on old harnesses gets their feet nicely out in front for landing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #23 March 18, 2004 QuoteIf you adjust Sigma or articulated Strong harnesses properly, the question never comes up. I'm not 100% sure I agree with you. With probably 80% of my tandem students, I don't have to move the leg straps after opening. The others I still do, the harness is still adjusted to what I know to be correct and is done just about every time under the eye of my course director, since he's also my S&TA and at the DZ always. Quotegets their feet nicely out in front for landing. I've always thought that the biggest problem between the old style harnesses on both systems mentioned and the new style harnesses are the overall fitting in relation to comfort and blood flow through the legs, etc. to keep the student from passing out or throwing up. Even when the I have to move the leg straps (I still check them on every jump after opening), the leg straps are in such a position that the student would still be fine for landing. Am I wrong or did I maybe misunderstand something?--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
douwanto 22 #24 March 23, 2004 I personally would never adjust leg straps under canopy. I will slide them foward if using the old style Vector harness. As for adjusting the harness befor the jump I will make it very tight just before going to the plane it shuld become some what loose when student sits down, I belive you can over tighten a harness. They are made to be tight in the upright and arched possition. Hell tall slender women when sitting I can and will sometimes slide them off thier shoulders and say {Damn I got the wrong harness Again Honey you better hold on tight when I wave in your face}. When You hook the laterals and tighten them and the top and give them one last snug they dont move. My 2 Cents Chris Uncle/GrandPapa Whit Unico Rodriguez # 245 Muff Brother # 2421 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bunyip 0 #25 April 6, 2004 Good point. I usually just ask them to excuse me, and explain that I have to make some adjustments for safety and comfort. This usually works ... as long as you ask and explain there are no problems Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
