WayCool 0 #51 February 20, 2004 Here are the APF rules http://members.westnet.com.au/onlineair/html/safety.htm Stay Cool http://www.waycool.com.au Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tombuch 0 #52 February 20, 2004 QuoteThe IP model cameras when mounted in Hand-Cam gloves are so so small that it would be a pretty tough argument to say they would constitute a safety issue. It's a shame that Sony changed away from the mini DV format with these instead of just the media because They are a very small and safe Hand-Cam option Especially the IP5 & 7 in the Classic configuration. Umm, what about placing your hand in front of the student to "get the shot" and getting grabbed instead? What about the mental distraction of shooting when all is going to hell? Tom BuchananTom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skygirl1 1 #53 February 20, 2004 you are completely correct........and even with thousands of jumps I would not consider myself an expert...........all i know is my friend whom is the tandem master has thousands of jumps in and uses this tiny camera that fits by his alti.......and he can film students under canopy............. no offense taken but you should see how small this camera is..........you do not even know he has it on his wrist unless he shows it to you.......... skygirl1" Mean people SUCK!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skygirl1 1 #54 February 20, 2004 Quoteyou are completely correct........and even with thousands of jumps I would not consider myself an expert...........all i know is my friend whom is the tandem master has thousands of jumps in and uses this tiny camera that fits by his alti.......and he can film students under canopy............. no offense taken but you should see how small this camera is..........you do not even know he has it on his wrist unless he shows it to you..........as SKYMONKEY 1 has stated there are some very small wrist mount cameras available.........he does not put his hand in front of the students face........he just turns his wrist and has the priceless face shot and all the exhilerhated screaming under canopy...... skygirl1 skygirl1" Mean people SUCK!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WayCool 0 #55 February 20, 2004 Sorry I should have been more specific. I was mainly talking about the issues raised earlier about camera weight in relation to G forces and hand use restriction. Although I will say that these gloves have been in use for over 3 years in Australia with the restrictions placed by the APF and there have not been any serious incidents reported. Is it not posible that most tandem masters who are qualified for and comfortable with using a Hand-cam glove can exercise their own good judgement and necessary discretion before placing an arm in a vulnerable position? I believe it is possible to get video and be out of reach of the passenger, although the variety of shots and overall quality will suffer. My point is that the tandem master is in a position to make this decision on a case by case basis. Hopefully instructors using these gloves will be competent and aware enough to make the right call with all the decisions involved including the decision to totally disregard the video when "all is going to hell". Everything has an element of risk and I'm not saying that this is for everyone, these guidelines go some way to help ensure this: - Minimum experience of 500 tandems - Recommendation by CI with log book - endorsement - CI approval of camera and mount - Undergo course of instruction by DZSO - One jump with a licensed jumper before taking a student - An audible altimeter is mandatory I would also say that Hand-Cam doesn't even compare to outside photo/video and is a tool to allow DZs more flexability. Operations with lots of staff and lift capacity will hopefully realise the need to keep the new instructors coming through the ranks of video and AFF etc. Stay Cool http://www.waycool.com.au Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #56 February 20, 2004 The simplest way to prevent students from grabbing your camera hand is keeping your hands so far out they cannot grab them. If you are are holding the camera at full arms' extension, the worst they can do is grab your biceps. Not a big issue as my biceps is stronger than most of my students' hands. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GroundZero 0 #57 February 22, 2004 Ok, I have to jump in here. Seems like 2 groups of responses here. 1) It's added responsibility and risks. Don't do it. ...These are coming from people who sound uncomfortable with the whole idea of tandem in the first place, even if they have 1000+ tandem skydives. Prior to doing hand-cam tandem videos, you should be VERY comfortable with your abilities as a tandem instructor. Period. (This group also includes video people who feel they are being passed by.) or... 2) I have experience with the system and I see it's merits, while understanding the additional workload. As a dzo (yes, the guy who reaps the additional profits and makes unlimited "free" jumps...), the system has great merits. As a tandem instructor, it captures the MOST important part that everyother video person has missed on every tandem skydive I've made, the first comments after deployment. I challenge any video person to show me the under-canopy footage of the grandmother talking about her orgasm. You video people miss the Most important shot. Sorry, but you all seem to go do your own thing at this point... you should really find a way to hang around and film the subject at their greatest moment. Until you can, this medium far surpasses yours. The video is about the student, and every conventional video person does not have the capabilities that the tandem person has to be there the entire skydive. Added workload and responsibility, damn right! It was one step up getting your rating. It will be a step up again when you can capture every moment of your students experience. The skydive is about the student, this is the way to capture it all. It does require experience and a certain comfort level that many will never have. The comments about the frame grabs of the student after exit, pre-drogue are unfounded. There were days with no drogue and we flew those fine. The purpose of the drogue is to ease deployment. Stability caused by the drogue is secondary... if you are drogue dependent for stability, you are in the wrong field. Until you fully understand this concept, and have experience with it, do not condemn it. Tom, perhaps Rob can send you a loaner. After jumping it, in whatever way makes you comfortable, I'd love to hear your comments then. Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #58 February 22, 2004 There were days with no drogue and we flew those fine. The purpose of the drogue is to ease deployment. Stability caused by the drogue is secondary... if you are drogue dependent for stability, you are in the wrong field. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Reading between the lines of the NO posters, I am getting the impression that since they never mastered the basics of stability, they never gained the confidence to jump handy-cam. The clue is found in their fear that students will grab their camera hand. First of all, if your camera hand is close enough for a student to grab, then you are getting magnificent footage of their nostril hairs, but completely missing the pretty snow-capped mountains in the background. However, holding your hands close enough to video their nostril hairs hints at a far greater problem: hands too close to student. If your hands are that close, you are either god's gift to skydiving or you are unstable. At six feet tall, I have a height advantage over most of my students and I flatly refuse to give up any of my advantage. My tandem ground school teaches students to do a small, relaxed box-man with hands on their chest aka "giant banana." I do the exact opposite, fully extending my arms and legs into the biggest, widest X position I can muster until after I have tossed the drogue and slowed the spin. The worse the student de-arches, the more I arch. A few times I have strained my hop flexor muscles trying to arch enough for both of us. If the student is profoundly unstable, I don't relax my giant X-shaped arch until after opening. The end result is stable exits nine times out of ten from a veriety of Cessnas and King Airs. That should be your minimum performance standard before you even contemplate straping on a handy-cam. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
linestretch 0 #59 February 22, 2004 I totally agree with Rob. If you are one of the guys who chucks the drogue RIGHT out the door, then you are probably one of the ones that has an issue about getting stable and the handy is probably not for you.my pics & stuff! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vasskydive 0 #60 August 28, 2004 I'm in this sport for 34 years and doing tandems fool time for 12 years. I have a lot of jumps a lot of tandems and camera jumps. And I'm doing handycams for last 14 months. Ok. If you have to chose between outside video and handycams what is more dangerous? For 14 months I never had any problems with handycams. But doing tandem jump with cameraman I had so many times cameraman riding on my back on exit. I had several time cameraman hitting me in FF( one time it was so hard so I had to turn sideways other wise he would brake my neck). I had half conscious cameraman spinning in front of me so I had to push him away to open my parachute and he pulled the same time it was just luck that we didn't collide. I had cameraman falling inches from my nose on the opening and a lot of openings at the same high. Probably everybody remembers a few years ago cameraman killed tandem student. My point is that I feel much safer to jump with handycam than with the best cameraman in the world. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
D22369 0 #61 August 28, 2004 I had so many times cameraman riding on my back on exit. I had several time cameraman hitting me in FF( one time it was so hard so I had to turn sideways other wise he would brake my neck). I had half conscious cameraman spinning in front of me so I had to push him away to open my parachute and he pulled the same time it was just luck that we didn't collide. I had cameraman falling inches from my nose on the opening and a lot of openings at the same high. *** Jesus!!!......Sounds like you had camera men who quite simply "sucked" and had no business being in the sky with a tandem...... get someone who is good and these problems will simply go away.... Just cause they have a camera, doesnt make them qualified to shoot video's.... I can see the merits of handicams, but if all tandems started using them.....I would be out a job.... I CAN see the possibility of some great video's if both outside video's and the handicams were blended on the same jump.... RoyThey say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,381 #62 August 28, 2004 >Ok. If you have to chose between outside video and >handycams what is more dangerous? No question - jumping with a competent cameraman is safer than a handycam. He can see things you can't (premature container opening) can help you on exit (i.e. find the stuck seatbelt) can help you check the spot before exiting and can even on occasion save your life (as in the UK cameraman who dumped the reserve on the unconscious TM.) >But doing tandem jump with cameraman I had so many times >cameraman riding on my back on exit . . . . (and other stupid things) No question there either - jumping with an _incompetent_ camerman is very dangerous. >My point is that I feel much safer to jump with handycam than with > the best cameraman in the world. When I did tandems with competent people I knew (Steve Barker, Dave Peterson, Joe Mama) I was safer than when jumping by myself - no matter what sort of camera I had. I did a few jumps with a chestmount, and that didn't seem to affect my safety either way. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
linestretch 0 #63 August 29, 2004 QuoteJesus!!!......Sounds like you had camera men who quite simply "sucked" and had no business being in the sky with a tandem...... get someone who is good and these problems will simply go away.... Just cause they have a camera, doesnt make them qualified to shoot video's.... I think this guy has like 10,000+ tandems. After doing that many, you are gonna see some bad shit, and end up with a wide variety of camera flyers.my pics & stuff! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #64 August 29, 2004 This reminds me of a conversation between our senior outside videographer and a part-time videographer. The part-timer was feeling threatened because I was "specing" tandem videos with my hand-cam. He was afraid that I would steal from his rice bowl. Our senior videographer replied: "I am not worried because I know that my outside video is better than the best hand-cam." The moral of the story is: if an outside videographer feels threatened by hand-cam, then he needs to improve his skills. P.S. I have sold plenty of hand-cam videos on weekdays - when no outside videographer was available - and few on weekends: when we had plenty of outside videographers. Hand-cam fills a market niche when we are short of outside videographers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
linestretch 0 #65 August 30, 2004 QuoteThe moral of the story is: if an outside videographer feels threatened by hand-cam, then he needs to improve his skills. very well put.my pics & stuff! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #66 August 30, 2004 QuoteQuoteThe moral of the story is: if an outside videographer feels threatened by hand-cam, then he needs to improve his skills. very well put. But not necessarily true Some Dzs encourage Handycam, and charge the same price as outside video. The TM gets a little more BUT the DZO gets a LOT more. As to the two being used in conjunction with each other I have seen some Excellent footage done with both combined.You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverton 0 #67 August 30, 2004 I'm a tandemmaster. Not a videoman. People pay me to bring them back to earth safely. If I want to make nice video's I will jump with a videohelmet. I will not like it when I will be forced to jump with a handycam. Because I don't want to deal with all that video-editing and bad footage shit. Let me handle the passenger and someone else the videostuff. In case I have doubts about the videopersons skills I will not jump with him. I do not have to jump for a living. For me it's a sideline activity. Remember: All tandempassengers have one objective: To kill you ! ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit, Especially when you are jumping a sport rig Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #68 August 31, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuoteThe moral of the story is: if an outside videographer feels threatened by hand-cam, then he needs to improve his skills. very well put. But not necessarily true Some Dzs encourage Handycam, and charge the same price as outside video. The TM gets a little more BUT the DZO gets a LOT more. As to the two being used in conjunction with each other I have seen some Excellent footage done with both combined. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pitt Meadows charges CAN$90 for outside video and $55 for hand-cam. The price difference ($35) is slightly more than the cost of a jump ticket ($34). I shared hand-cam footage with an outside videographer when Shaw cable TV did a jump with us. Shaw did not have the courtesy to send us a copy of their final product, so I never saw how they mixed it. However, several students have mentioned that they saw me on Shaw cable TV. Wonder if my make-up was smudged???? Hah! Hah! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beezyshaw 0 #69 August 31, 2004 I have been skydiving for 33 years, and I think I know by now what is safe and what is not. I've been shooting hand-cam video (with a mount made by Rob and a Sony IP5) for a little over two years. THERE IS NO COMPROMISE IN SAFETY. PERIOD! You can "what if this happens" or "what if that happens" all you like, but it works great, is totally safe for me to do, doesn't interfere with the skydive WHATSOEVER, and the students absolutely love the results. And it is their 50 bucks, so say what you will about quality compared to conventional video, but I'm here to tell you they actually like it better. Why? Because the entire skydive is on video, so they are a star for 6 minutes instead of 1. We have several students come to make a second tandem solely for the purpose of getting the hand-cam video like their buddy did. When they get home and compare, they all like the hand-cam better because the whole canopy ride is captured. So enough of the speculation about safety; NOT AN ISSUE. And say what you will about video quality, the proof is in my hundreds of hand cam jumps that make the students very happy with the finished product. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #70 September 2, 2004 Tom, What size is your hand? What size is your camera? What is your mailing address? I will sew you a hand-mount for free, just so you can try it. riggerrob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
linestretch 0 #71 September 2, 2004 hey wait, maybe I think it's unsafe now too.my pics & stuff! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #72 September 4, 2004 I'd like to see the results of a poll conducted with students/passengers. Show them a tandem done with outside camera and then show then Hand Cam footage and then tell them they cost the same. Let's see which one they prefer. I have my preference, but that's because I know the difference.You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
linestretch 0 #73 September 5, 2004 QuoteI have my preference, but that's because I know the difference. you know which one you like.....it's all subjective. They both offer something the other one doesn't.my pics & stuff! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beezyshaw 0 #74 September 28, 2004 If anyone is interested in at least seeing a sample of what the hand-cam captures on a tandem skydive, here is a short clip I've uploaded...go to www.skydivingmovies.com, then the dropzone.com category, and the name of the clip is "tandemhandcam.mov" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #75 September 29, 2004 Quotethey are a star for 6 minutes instead of 1 So I guess that means no handle checks, and flying the canopy in half brakes at all times in order to keep the camera on level with the student's face? Oh, and my video subjects are stars for 6+ minutes because I include pre-jump footage, in-plane footage, and a post-jump interview. If you are doing handle checks and truly flying your canopy (including full flight in preparation for landing) then the student is out of frame for significant parts of the video. When I shoot tandem video, the student is in frame the whole time, and I can get shots from a variety of angles, not just one. Are you also doing ground footage, in plane footage, and after-landing footage? Sounds like a lot to ask of a busy tandem instructor. I would bet that the video these students are getting is skydive only, from one angle only, with breaks in the coverage during landing and freefall. Doesn't sound so great to me. Of course I will be dismissed as a videographer who is afraid of losing his job. Bullshit. I don't feel threatened by the hand-cam, I just think the student's safety is being compromised for $$$ and they are getting an inferior product in the end. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
