AggieDave 6 #26 February 17, 2004 QuoteIf I had a choice, I wouldn't do them. But if I say no, then I'm back to oregon to do nothing but sit in the rain, and make no $$$. What does the S&TA think about you "having" to possibly compromise what you might consider safe for the DZ to make money and for you to keep your job as an instructor?--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #27 February 17, 2004 Jumping first-generation tandem mains was far more dangerous than jumping with a camera strapped to my hand: 14 tandem reserve rides, only one of them deployed at terminal. All the rest were after cutting away from line knots, broken lines or torn canopies. I also landed more torn tandem canopies than I care to remember. Finally, giving the choice between jumping with a bumbling junior cameraman or doing it all myself, I would much rather jump with a handy-cam. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
linestretch 0 #28 February 17, 2004 S&TA? That's pretty funny. We do ONLY tandems, and it's not a USPA sanctioned DZ. In fact, you can't really call it a DZ. It's a place where I work, and do tandems. My options are to do them, or leave.my pics & stuff! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tombuch 0 #29 February 17, 2004 QuoteJumping first-generation tandem mains was far more dangerous than jumping with a camera strapped to my hand: 14 tandem reserve rides, only one of them deployed at terminal. All the rest were after cutting away from line knots, broken lines or torn canopies. I also landed more torn tandem canopies than I care to remember. Finally, giving the choice between jumping with a bumbling junior cameraman or doing it all myself, I would much rather jump with a handy-cam. I jumped those early tandems too and am very happy the manufacturers have improved the systems. Somehow I survived the old Strong 520's! The accident rates are much lower these days, and we should do everything we can to keep them low. That means taking advantage of the improvements and targeting zero failures, not looking to the past accident rates as a benchmark to achieve. My choice is to keep the improvements of better canopies and reject the potential added risk of a hand camera. As for beginner tandem video flyers...yup, you are right, but you shouldn't have beginners bumbling around on your tandem jumps. Remember when the manufacturers required camera flyers to also have AFF ratings and tons of camera experience before shooting a tandem? Stick to that tried and true standard rather than using tandem jumps to train new camera flyers. Heck, you can go one better and also require that your tandem camera flyers have a tandem rating so they know what's up from your perspective. Let's target improvements in safety and not focus so much on driving volume or profit. Our students look to us to make their skydive as safe as possible within the limits of the sport. We should meet their expectations. Tom Buchanan Instructor (AFF, SL, IAD, Tandem) S&TA Author JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and EasyTom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DutchSkyCam 0 #30 February 17, 2004 As a cameraman of over 1000 Tandem video jumps and a tandemmaster with around 500 tandemjumps, I was asked by my DZO if handycam wouldn't be an option in our operation. We both agreed that a real cameraflyer delivers better footage than a handycam. The problem is that sometimes I am the only cameraflyer AND the only tandemmaster. (The DZO is a tandemmaster, but he rather stays on the ground). I told him I would refuse to jump it. For several reasons. #1) Safety, I don't like showing/presenting my hand/arms to the student. #2) Quality, The students have a better video to show at home so a higher return rate. Many of our tandem customers are comming because they saw video of relatives or co-workers.... #3) money, In the season we get more tandems than we can handle, so selling them tandems AND video gives a higher profit. At least one or two cameramen can make some money while I do the tandems. If there are no other cameramen around, The DZO can do the tandems and I do the video. Barry Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #31 February 17, 2004 I have seen some very good handicam footage. Beezy Shaw does it all the time at Chris Martin's dropzone in TN. I have also held and examined Rob's mount; it's very nice. With the device on, I still have full range of motion with my wrist and had no problem whatsoever getting to my handles with my tandem rig on. I think that in the right hands handicam is a great tool. It fits perfectly into Cessna operations and, once again, in the correct hands, makes it entirely possible to get two tandems with paid video in a 182. The system also works fantastically on the wrist of very-experienced reserve-side AFF instructors. Actually, I think the video from that usage are even better than the tandem ones. I am going to end up getting one, but wouldn't dare jump a camera as big as our PC-120 in it. I have what is probably the best answer to that problem already though: bullet cam mounted on the top of your hand. Less weight, faster reflexes in case some monkey does try to grab your wrist. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #32 February 17, 2004 skymonkeyone, I too looked at a couple of different bullet cams, but could not figure out where to hang the video camera case on a tandem instructor crammed into a Cessna. Where do you mount your recorder? Remember that I am six feet tall, 190 pounds and occasionally get stuffed in beside the pilots of narrow-body Cessna 182s. That is because I am not our largest instructor. Hee! Hee! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cpoxon 0 #33 February 17, 2004 QuoteI too looked at a couple of different bullet cams, but could not figure out where to hang the video camera case on a tandem instructor crammed into a Cessna. Where do you mount your recorder? Thought about this too and thought the only place would be on the front of the student, but that leaves a lot of messy cable routing. A tandem instructor/examiner at my dropzone sometimes fits a belly mounted bag with streamers in (like the ones used at the Royal Sky celebrations in Thailand) to the student to trail when under canopy.Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freakydiver 0 #34 February 17, 2004 What is the point of a tandem master shooting video? What would he video?? -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." -- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nightjumps 1 #35 February 17, 2004 As I stated earlier, with my level of experience on tandems, I may wait awhile until embracing the handycam. I do wonder - if rather than having a handycam; if there would be as much concern with a student harness chest-strap mounted mini-cam. We used to strap an altimeter chest cushion on students prior to going to wrist mounts... What if someone were to develop a mini-cam chest mount for the student's harness? OR... what if we put the handi-cam on the student? They could do all the videoing, leaving our arms free and once we're in stable freefall we could grab their wrists to direct some additional footage. This would prevent us from placing our hands in front of them to grab. Just some thoughts... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #36 February 17, 2004 QuoteWhat if someone were to develop a mini-cam chest mount for the student's harness? That's not a bad idea, put something like a .3 on it. Although they'd get some nice "up nose" shots.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #37 February 17, 2004 Rob, I have not done it yet, but know exactly what I need to do to make it happen. The smaller PC and IP cameras will easily fit in a cypres bag-sized container which you can sling under one shoulder under your jumpsuit. Not at all in the way. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cpoxon 0 #38 February 18, 2004 QuoteThe smaller PC and IP cameras will easily fit in a cypres bag-sized container which you can sling under one shoulder under your jumpsuit. You would also need to route and mount a CamEye Sport to control the camera as well as the bullet cam. QuoteNot at all in the way Well, maybe a little ;-)Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveMO 0 #39 February 18, 2004 QuoteI think tandem masters shooting their own video is a good idea - provided they follow guidelines published by the Australian Parachute Federation: minimum 500 tandem jumps, briefing by DZ Safety Officer, etc. In the US, neither USPA nor the Tandem Manufacturers have outlined any guidelines for the use of video equipment by tandem instructors. Anyone with a rating can strap on a camera without training or experience and make a jump. We all know there are many dynamics to tandem skydives which require the full attention of the tandem master to insure the safety of their student. Handle checks should be made every jump and stable body position should always be the priority on exit to insure clean drogue deployment. Can these requirements be safely met with a camera weighing down one of your hands? Will geeking the camera take priority over handle checks? I think these are some valid concerns with the use of the hand mount systems. I just hope proper training will be introduced in the US before the first incident or fatality involving a tandem with hand-mount video. I do agree that with proper training and experience that the system can be used safely. It gives students video at dropzones where it might not otherwise be offered. I can also see the benefit of maximizing the profits of a dropzone by cutting out the extra videographer. However, I have always aired on the side of caution when it comes to students. They entrust their safety with me as their Tandem Instructor and I take that very seriously. I can foresee to many cases where a camera mounted on my hand could cause difficulties in an emergency situation to make it worth the added risk. It’s a great product and I would love to have one for my personal use. As for tandems… I’ll pass. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #40 February 18, 2004 QuoteQuoteI think tandem masters shooting their own video is a good idea - provided they follow guidelines published by the Australian Parachute Federation: minimum 500 tandem jumps, briefing by DZ Safety Officer, etc. In the US, neither USPA nor the Tandem Manufacturers have outlined any guidelines for the use of video equipment by tandem instructors. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This gets into one of those grey areas where we argue "legalese" instead of common sense. Just because USPA or the FAA has not published a law does not mean that Americans are free to do anything they want. As professionals, we are ethically bound to follow industry standards. Since Australians have the most experience and have already published standards, we are ethically bound to follow APF standards until USPA publishes an American standard. The same thing happens every day in rigging lofts around the planet. For example, the whole issue of what to do with "orphaned" round reserves from the acid-mesh era is rather vague. Since CSPA is the only organization to publish a Technical Bulletin (when in doubt: pH and pull test orphaned reserves) conscientious riggers follow CSPA guidelines. BY "orphaned" we mean round reserves that were built by factories that subsequently closed. When in doubt, work to the highest standard. In the long run, no-body cares whether it is an Australian or Brazilian standard, as long as you can wave a piece of paper in court. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkydiveMO 0 #41 February 18, 2004 QuoteThis gets into one of those grey areas where we argue "legalese" instead of common sense. Just because USPA or the FAA has not published a law does not mean that Americans are free to do anything they want. I agree, I’m not concerned with new rules or regulations. What I would like to see is guidelines set for training, currency, etc. set by the USPA or the tandem manufacturers regarding the hand-mount cameras use. I have never even considered studying what all of the other skydiving governing bodies have regulated. I have enough trouble keeping up with all of the changes with the USPA’s training program. By strapping on the camera a tandem master adds to their overall responsibilities on the jump, some would say they add a whole new distraction. It would be nice to think that instructors would use common sense regarding their ability to handle the added responsibility. Sometimes common sense is in short supply and some people need a little extra guidance. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pullhigh 0 #42 February 19, 2004 Assuming your page is current, at 17 jumps, I wouldn't consider you a "voice of expertise" on what will or won;t prevent a tandem master from cutting away... Sorry, Ganja Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites piisfish 135 #43 February 19, 2004 maybe that's what she heard from her friend which is the actual tandem pilot flying the mentionned camera scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pullhigh 0 #44 February 19, 2004 Palms may be free, but wouldn't the added weight on your wrist make it harder to pull your hand in to grab your handles? Ganja Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites piisfish 135 #45 February 19, 2004 I don't know the system he uses, but maybe the mini camera she is talking about is this kind of "extension" with just a lens and a cable, size would be like a pen. In any case, the weight would not be a big problem, the size of the camera could be more problematic, with risks of getting caught where it shouldn'tscissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkymonkeyONE 3 #46 February 19, 2004 With the smaller cameras (IP-5 variety and even the smaller TRV's) it's very light and worn in a manner that doesn't really restrict anything. I was pretty surprised. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pullhigh 0 #47 February 19, 2004 The issue I resonded too was a violent spin. In a spin, momentum makes it hard to bring your arms in. Many people have trouble pulling their handles during a spinning line twist malfunction on a sport rig. My thoughts are that in a spin, the momentum would be magnified by any amount of weigth being added to the wrist. I know this is not the normal run of the mill issue, but remember, "It's not just another skydive". I have never found myslef in a spin like this, and hope that I never will. I was responding to the idea that it is a possibility, and that any added weight would magnify the issue. I have not yet jumped one, but am not opposed to giving it my honest review though if someone wants to loan me one. FYI I have a littl over 1500 jumps, including almost 500 tandems. I'm not the mst experienced by any means, but do fell like I am experienced enough for my inoput to be valuable. Ganja Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pccoder 0 #48 February 19, 2004 I haven't taken the time to read this thread yet, but right off the bat it just seems to me like that is one extra thing that the tandem master has to deal with, which sounds like it adds at least at some level a bit more danger to the situation. Maybe like driving and talking on the cellphone PcCoder.net Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites linestretch 0 #49 February 19, 2004 QuoteMaybe like driving and talking on the cellphone and putting the make up on, with a cup of joe. For me, the thing that gets me the most worried is when I am taking a very pitite gal (like 80-100lbs) and the load is going to 8K. While I'm moving to the door, I'm saying in my head "MUST HAVE GOOD CLEAN EXIT!". (I'm talking about the ones with handycam)my pics & stuff! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites WayCool 0 #50 February 20, 2004 The IP model cameras when mounted in Hand-Cam gloves are so so small that it would be a pretty tough argument to say they would constitute a safety issue. It's a shame that Sony changed away from the mini DV format with these instead of just the media because They are a very small and safe Hand-Cam option Especially the IP5 & 7 in the Classic configuration. 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SkydiveMO 0 #41 February 18, 2004 QuoteThis gets into one of those grey areas where we argue "legalese" instead of common sense. Just because USPA or the FAA has not published a law does not mean that Americans are free to do anything they want. I agree, I’m not concerned with new rules or regulations. What I would like to see is guidelines set for training, currency, etc. set by the USPA or the tandem manufacturers regarding the hand-mount cameras use. I have never even considered studying what all of the other skydiving governing bodies have regulated. I have enough trouble keeping up with all of the changes with the USPA’s training program. By strapping on the camera a tandem master adds to their overall responsibilities on the jump, some would say they add a whole new distraction. It would be nice to think that instructors would use common sense regarding their ability to handle the added responsibility. Sometimes common sense is in short supply and some people need a little extra guidance. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pullhigh 0 #42 February 19, 2004 Assuming your page is current, at 17 jumps, I wouldn't consider you a "voice of expertise" on what will or won;t prevent a tandem master from cutting away... Sorry, Ganja Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #43 February 19, 2004 maybe that's what she heard from her friend which is the actual tandem pilot flying the mentionned camera scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pullhigh 0 #44 February 19, 2004 Palms may be free, but wouldn't the added weight on your wrist make it harder to pull your hand in to grab your handles? Ganja Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #45 February 19, 2004 I don't know the system he uses, but maybe the mini camera she is talking about is this kind of "extension" with just a lens and a cable, size would be like a pen. In any case, the weight would not be a big problem, the size of the camera could be more problematic, with risks of getting caught where it shouldn'tscissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #46 February 19, 2004 With the smaller cameras (IP-5 variety and even the smaller TRV's) it's very light and worn in a manner that doesn't really restrict anything. I was pretty surprised. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pullhigh 0 #47 February 19, 2004 The issue I resonded too was a violent spin. In a spin, momentum makes it hard to bring your arms in. Many people have trouble pulling their handles during a spinning line twist malfunction on a sport rig. My thoughts are that in a spin, the momentum would be magnified by any amount of weigth being added to the wrist. I know this is not the normal run of the mill issue, but remember, "It's not just another skydive". I have never found myslef in a spin like this, and hope that I never will. I was responding to the idea that it is a possibility, and that any added weight would magnify the issue. I have not yet jumped one, but am not opposed to giving it my honest review though if someone wants to loan me one. FYI I have a littl over 1500 jumps, including almost 500 tandems. I'm not the mst experienced by any means, but do fell like I am experienced enough for my inoput to be valuable. Ganja Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pccoder 0 #48 February 19, 2004 I haven't taken the time to read this thread yet, but right off the bat it just seems to me like that is one extra thing that the tandem master has to deal with, which sounds like it adds at least at some level a bit more danger to the situation. Maybe like driving and talking on the cellphone PcCoder.net Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
linestretch 0 #49 February 19, 2004 QuoteMaybe like driving and talking on the cellphone and putting the make up on, with a cup of joe. For me, the thing that gets me the most worried is when I am taking a very pitite gal (like 80-100lbs) and the load is going to 8K. While I'm moving to the door, I'm saying in my head "MUST HAVE GOOD CLEAN EXIT!". (I'm talking about the ones with handycam)my pics & stuff! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WayCool 0 #50 February 20, 2004 The IP model cameras when mounted in Hand-Cam gloves are so so small that it would be a pretty tough argument to say they would constitute a safety issue. It's a shame that Sony changed away from the mini DV format with these instead of just the media because They are a very small and safe Hand-Cam option Especially the IP5 & 7 in the Classic configuration. Stay Cool http://www.waycool.com.au Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
