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davelepka

Radios on AFF students: WAS - Bad Tandem

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I used radios when I did the static line course 17 some odd years ago. Then, went away from the sport, came back, did AFF and used radios again.

I don't understand the debate?

They worked well and I learned a lot. That wasn't the only training I had. Of course I was given full instruction on what to do and how to do it. So if the radio failed, I could fly my way in.

I never had a problem with it.

What's the debate about? Re following someone in? Hell typically there are many canopies about, always someone to lurk albeit from far away, if you are lost. But gods honest truth if you paid attention, wind sock, arrow, and ran your pattern, no problem. Jeez a Manta is pretty damn easy to steer, and certainly slow enough to feel comfortable.

I don't get it. Where's the issue?




Thank God someone who really gets it,...;)

I have no respect or paitence for any instructor or coach that dosen't land with their student.
C

thanks "jumpinjackflash" awsome!
But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

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Of course things seem easy now. Don't forget what it was like to be a student. And if you were one of the 'naturals', then it's going to hard to empathize.

Sometimes, maybe more often than one would think, it's hard for students to pick up on that 'simplicity'.

And I don't see any debate about radios..radios work. FTL may or may not work. THAT'S the debate.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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I used radios when I did the static line course 17 some odd years ago. Then, went away from the sport, came back, did AFF and used radios again.

I don't understand the debate?

They worked well and I learned a lot. That wasn't the only training I had. Of course I was given full instruction on what to do and how to do it. So if the radio failed, I could fly my way in.

I never had a problem with it.

What's the debate about? Re following someone in? Hell typically there are many canopies about, always someone to lurk albeit from far away, if you are lost. But gods honest truth if you paid attention, wind sock, arrow, and ran your pattern, no problem. Jeez a Manta is pretty damn easy to steer, and certainly slow enough to feel comfortable.

I don't get it. Where's the issue?




Thank God someone who really gets it,...;)

I have no respect or paitence for any instructor or coach that dosen't land with their student.


Well, yes and no, Chris.
It seems that your assumption is that every AFFI CAN land with his student. Unless you pull at the same altitude as the student and have a canopy that will hang up there with the big ones, and the ability to work it, you'll be landing first and there are no guarantees on where ol' Stu will land.

It would be my job to help guide him in instead of following him until I couldn't follow any more.

I'm not so sure I want to land in the trees with that lost student.

Please be patient with us...the job is a little tougher than some appear to think.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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Thanks Pops, all good points.

I guess the thing I'm struggling with is of course radio can't be "all that there is". Reviewing the dz, optional "outs" in the area if you can't make it back from a bad spot as well as hazards in the area (power lines to the North 1/4 mile, etc..).

In that vein, FTL, Radio, and other methods that help in the early phase are certainly worthwhile I would think. So long as one doesn't negate the other.

My biggest pet peeve in life is the one trick pony. Myopia in anything can cause significant issues when a situation threatens that requires alternate solutions.

Re the "simplicity" you are right. Especially when in the early phases there is so much adrenaline unloading that brain farts can be the norm. Aka, toggle right student, toggle right student, TOGGLE RIGHT STUDENT!

How many times have you heard that one? The radio is working, but the student is so freaked, or "gone" that they just can't register it...

Anyhow, I digress. Rambling. I think it's important for instructors to teach a holistic, big picture, and work with any /every tool that is fit for the purpose to ensure the student gets it as early as possible.

Aka, radios are great, I could see FTL being a nice addition, however, neither are guarantees. The biggest guarantee is to teach them to navigate changing winds, stick to the pattern and when in need, pick the out and land it successfully.

Good stuff. I don't think I was a "natural" necessarily. I think, like many, I was lucky. I had great instructors starting with Kirk Verner's dad back in the day (first guy on my radio) and I listened, with both ears.


Blues

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Ha! Thanks Chris!

I have to admit, there are many more things in life that I don't "Get!"

The simplicity of this sport, and all the lessons that have learned by those before us certainly provide a solid foundation to build on that's for sure. On the backs of giants, no doubt.

Even in the few jumps I've had, I've had a few very hairy situations to navigate and thankfully, came out on top. I have to admit, had it not been for the training, I wouldn't be here.

Hopefully, that's the way it will always be and I won't succumb to a brain fart and go in, or simply find myself in an irrevocably irretrievable situation. One never knows.

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:)
Andy, your so sweet,...

"Well, yes and no, Chris.
It seems that your assumption is that every AFFI CAN land with his student. Unless you pull at the same altitude as the student and have a canopy that will hang up there with the big ones, and the ability to work it, you'll be landing first and there are no guarantees on where ol' Stu will land.

It would be my job to help guide him in instead of following him until I couldn't follow any more.

I'm not so sure I want to land in the trees with that lost student.

Please be patient with us...the job is a little tougher than some appear to think. "

OF COURSE I'm not speaking about following someone into the tree's, and yes I realize it's a tought job:)
Perhaps I should have said:
"I have no respect or paitence for any instructor or coach that dosen't (intend/plan) to land with their student."

I only mention this because I was just at a DZ where all of the coaches and AFFI's never land with their students/ clients because it is "beneath them," for they are better than their lowley students and besides it's a longer walk back to the shack anyways...I was not making a comparison to anyone here... Regardless you can imagine their attitude towords the unnesesary cost of "Radios." FTL might as well mean PTL to this bunch,...(Just venting)

When you post something like this: "I'm not so sure I want to land in the trees with that lost student." The key words I immediatly noticed were "I'm not so sure I want to land,..." At least your thinking about it? What if the student was hurt? But I noticed you were thinking about it?

I know way to many that this subject isn't even a debate! and yes I have "No respect or paitence, for them either...and I suspect you as well??
C
But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

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I think it's important for instructors to teach a holistic, big picture, and work with any /every tool that is fit for the purpose to ensure the student gets it as early as possible.


Bingo. You said it, sir, yes. The better ones do just that. Unbelievably, IMHO, there are way too many who only do the minimum...and some of those ONLY if they get paid.


I share your peeve...indeed, I do.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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:)
Andy, your so sweet,...


:D:DMy ex would argue that point.

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OF COURSE I'm not speaking about following someone into the tree's, and yes I realize it's a tought job:)


Of course you weren't. I knew that and I didn't mean to imply that you actually thought that. I could have worded my sentence better. My apologies.

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I was just at a DZ where all of the coaches and AFFI's never land with their students/ clients because it is "beneath them," for they are better than their lowley students and besides it's a longer walk back to the shack anyways...


I am 100% with you on that. The DZO could put a stop to it if he/she wanted..or even cared.

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(..landing in trees...) What if the student was hurt? But I noticed you were thinking about it?


It has happened. It has happened to me. I'm below and in front of him and realized that neither of us were going to make it over wooded area. Stu was not responding to the radio. I tried to lead him to a nearby pasture but he went ahead into the trees. I saw where he was headed and landed as close to that as I could get. (BTW, the other AFFI was there with us and he and I landed side-by-side. We dropped our gear and went into the woods to help ol' Stu. Bad news: Scared the shit out of both of us thinking he was gonna be impaled or something dreadful. Good news: No hurts and the DZ got a case of beer.

Oh...BTW, the beer fine was because he said, " I heard you on the radio but I thought I could make over the trees."
*sigh*


Yes, I have little respect for AFFIs who don't give their best to student training.

Anyway, back to the FTL suggestions from RobinHeid.

Anybody got anything else too add to that conversation/debate?
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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