Is TOO Much Arch a Problem

[wan2doit 6]

As I review my dvd's of my tunnel flying progress I have a concern. At first (see Mar 17, 2014 vid of about the 3rd to 5th minute in tunnel)) I looked too stiff so figured I needed more arch so worked hard to increase it. Being an ex - very flexible - gymnast who had stiffened up over 50 years I knew how to do that.

Mar vid https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFbHfwl8lDc Me flying at 1:20, 15:58

Now I have a lot of arch (more than most) I am finding it nearly impossible to do leg turns properly and am worried my arch is screwing the windflow up..

Also see (VID OF AROUND MY 70TH OR SO MINUTES) trying leg turns at a residents night in iFLY Orlando in Sep 2014.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2zOoOb--Lk
I'm the one in blue and fly at 1:12, 6:26, 11:53, 18:30

The worst part now is that at our Jan 10th overnight camp I couldn't even do leg turns equal to what I did in Sep. WTF is up?

Now the flip side - at the overnight 2 days ago I flew up about 6 - 10 feet repeatedly on my 1st backfly attempts albeit with no real directional control and saved by the coach a few times.LOL My suspected overarch may have helped on that but not positive.

The REAL question here is - Am I just arching way too much even though it's natural now since I did all the back stretching to have this arch?

I will greatly appreciate any help and return it by attempting to help- others if and when I can.

[keithbar 1]

not if you skydive with me read the signature line

i have on occasion been accused of pulling low . My response. Naw I wasn't low I'm just such a big guy I look closer than I really am .

[wan2doit 6]

I forgot to mention I am a wannabe tunnel rat that hasn't jumped from a plane yet and looking for advise on if my arch in the September video is so much that it could interfere with my tunnel progression..

[sirenoremac 0]

Best advice is to make sure to debrief with your instructor as thoroughly as possible. They were there, they know you, and they know how to fly. That said:

In my massively undereducated opinion (not an instructor, no real formal rw training), over arching is not a problem here. In the second video, your first (1:21) flight has some leg turn attempts, and to me it looks like a couple things are thwarting them. One, you aren't actually dropping your knee. You're kind of just bending your knee and tucking your foot up towards your butt and then reacting to the instability this is causing using your arms, basically just causing you to wobble a little.

Your second flight is much better. Look at 7:45 and you can see the way your knee is dropped a little and stuck out to the side. This is what catches air and causes the turn. I like to think of it as sort of grabbing a chunk of air with my knee.

In your third flight it looks like your knee is dropping but not going out to the side at all. This turns you a little bit, but also reduces your stability. Getting the knee out to the side a little not only adds more pull to the turn, it helps give you a bigger platform to the wind, keeping you more stable.

If any of this is patently wrong, I apologize. Just my personal underinformed thoughts.

[wan2doit 6]

Thanks Sirenoremac for taking the time to help. At the discount overnight camps the instructors are very busy and do not have a lot of time to debrief since they are helping many people each flight session so most of the advise is after the flight or a bit before. I have had some of the best coaches coach me on this but in spite of that my brain doesn't seem to be able to direct my legs to straighten or drop too well YET.

You may have hit the nail on the head about my poor leg dropping destabilizing me while I was thinking it was my arm positioning which often opens wide open - I think out of fear when I shoot up as I do accomplish a leg turn once in a while.

I will keep at it and Thanks Again.

[Joellercoaster 6]

Your arch is fine! It will serve you well.

sirenoremac is right; you appear to be tucking your foot back rather than dropping your knee (you can see your coach driving his knee forward in an attempt to demonstrate, and you seem to get it a little bit as you progress - there are ome turns in there!). While dropping your knee is not the only way to leg turn (there are all kinds of tricks with booties), your current technique is not one of the alternatives

Ideally you need to balance your upper and lower body inputs - and because your legs are huge and powerful by comparison, you'll need to put in a fair bit of upper body input in to avoid rotating around your head. Getting this balance and coordination right will get rid of the wobble
Practice!

(Also have a look at this video of Sparky demonstrating leg turns in the tunnel for comparison, and see how she extends her opposite leg and uses her upper body.)

--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?

[wan2doit 6]

Nice to hear the arch is OK - it took a lot of stretching work getting it after 50 years of no stretching.

In the end the last word is the real solution - Practice

Agreed and will do.

Thanks much, Joellercoaster

[wan2doit 6]

I had seen that tape of Sparky before but didn't concentrate much on her upper body inputs.

So far my coaches haven't integrated arm movements to assist the turn rate yet. Probably due to my not having caught on to a proper leg drop yet although this past Saturday's overnight camp they did have me do the arm movements similar to Sparky's I would believe in preparation for them to be integrated whenever I get the leg drop down.

With the help I have received here I do believe the leg drop will be in the bag the next time I fly. Like coaches have told me - It helps to get explanations on how to learn skills from more than one sources. I do believe that.

Thanks again to all who viewed or replied to my post.

Frank

[sirenoremac 0]

A leg drop will turn you. An arm movement will turn you. As said above, leg only will tend to pivot you more around your head. Arm movement will tend to pivot you more around your toes. If you coordinate them, you can get a faster turn and pivot around your center of mass more easily. Working on the two separately first is a great idea as you will get a feel for what each type of input does in isolation before trying to combine them.

[Remster 24]

Quote

dropping your knee

You guys are so old school...

Remster

[sirenoremac 0]

Probably more like undereducated...

[wan2doit 6]

Remster - I'm the leg turn newb looking for advise here - How does a new school training for a leg turn proceed?

[Remster 24]

It was mostly a tongue in cheek comment...

Dropping a knee a still a pretty standard tech for a turn.

However, going by what Airspeed has been teaching for the last couple years, they emphasize bootie action. ie, keeping the inside of the booties engaged at all time (think wider leg stance, with lower legs angled inwards, and ankles "cupping"), hence having all that power pre-loaded, and angling the insteps more or less depending on the side to engage the turn.

Using this technique, you barely move your knees down, if at all.

Remster

[Joellercoaster 6]

Remster

Using this technique, you barely move your knees down, if at all.

We're probably getting beyond the scope of this thread, but:

Yeah, that. The Sparky video is what I think of as a "classical" technique (and I'm pretty sure she can still do it faster than I can do the "new" way :P)... but when we want to really turn in a hurry it's more of a tilting of both legs into an angled plane. The leading knee is a bit lower than neutral but not by much, and the booties cover a wider horizontal area.

As Steve likes to say... "pressurise your control surfaces".

--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?

[wan2doit 6]

It seems to me that booties in tunnels don't seem to be the norm but more prevalent in skydiving. Not really sure but at my stage of learning I may have a lot of training to do before I need to use them.

The concept of preloading is interesting albeit maybe a bit advanced for me.

It is a rude awakening as a newb like me begins to realize bodyflight is not near as easy as all the great instructors make it look.

Great fun to keep trying though and very rewarding when the breakthroughs come even if it does take longer than any of us want it to. Ha Ha

[PixieUK 0]

wan2doit

It seems to me that booties in tunnels don't seem to be the norm but more prevalent in skydiving. Not really sure but at my stage of learning I may have a lot of training to do before I need to use them.

The concept of preloading is interesting albeit maybe a bit advanced for me.

It is a rude awakening as a newb like me begins to realize bodyflight is not near as easy as all the great instructors make it look.

Great fun to keep trying though and very rewarding when the breakthroughs come even if it does take longer than any of us want it to. Ha Ha

I am also very new to skydiving and tunnel and I really struggled with knee turns. One of my instructors stood in the tunnel and had me hold his arms then dig a knee down to spin both of us around, then stop it with a bit of opposite knee, then go the other way. (I tend to think of a knee lift or tuck rather than a dropped knee as otherwise my brain doesn't tell my body to do the correct movement, lol). Once I could really feel it, he hopped up into a flying position too and I spun us both around flying (rather than him still standing). It was a great way to actually feel the correct action. I learned to do it originally without booties and it does work. Once you have booties, the input can be a bit less, or else you spin much faster and have to counteract more to stop it. I've been trying to practice turning slower and more in control - great theory but doesn't always work in practice, lol. It also took me a while to figure out that the turn will start slowly and will accelerate even if I don't put more input into it so I have to be ready to stop it with a bit of opposite knee.

A mind once stretched by a new idea never regains its original dimensions - Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr

[BigBUG 0]

Quote

However, going by what Airspeed has been teaching for the last couple years, they emphasize bootie action. ie, keeping the inside of the booties engaged at all time (think wider leg stance, with lower legs angled inwards, and ankles "cupping"), hence having all that power pre-loaded, and angling the insteps more or less depending on the side to engage the turn.

And if you go this way, you also gain proper freefly leg awarness. Flying your lower parts of the leg is essential for a contermporary freefly and tunnel dynamic flying, carving, layouts etc.