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tunnel time vs jump numbers

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I have clearly stated that Tunnel Time relates equally to Freefall Time...



Nope, not even that. There are many different types of freefall skills which can NOT be practiced in a tunnel, like long dives to a distant base, swooping to dock from far out, and tracking. How would a tunnel simulate exiting 20th out of an Otter, diving to the base 500 feet below, leveling out, bleeding off your forward approach speed, avoid going low, and taking no-momentem grips on the outside of a 20-way formation? The tunnel is great for close-proximity maneuvering practice, but you should quit trying to make it more than it is. The tunnel will help you turn the 2nd point on that 20-way, but it doesn't do much to get you there for the 1st point. And without the 1st point, you don't get a 2nd.

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You will learn more freefall skills in 60 minutes of tunnel than you will in 60 skydives.

You will learn zero parachute/spotting skills in 60 minutes of tunnel.

Whatever your tunnel/skydiving balance is is up to you. Some skydivers have never been in a tunnel, and some tunnelrats have never been skydiving. I prefer to spend money on the things that I want to spend money on, and if people think I spend too much time tunnelling or skydiving, then they can go f*** themselves.
There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

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Like I mentioned before, while you can't directly practice these specific things in the tunnel, overall tunnel flying can help improve in these areas.

Prior to my tunnel addiction, I could barely hang in a head down 4 way that left the plane together. I can only remember a few times where I exited unlinked, and actually made it to the jump, let alone docked on something.

After about 25 hours in the tunnel over the winter, I was last diver on 8 and 10 ways getting into the jumps relatively quickly (relative means not quick by quick standards, but compared to before - I was docked onto the base within 12 - 18 seconds after exiting). This was only after about 10 jumps - and I hadn't jumped for about 6 months prior to this.

After about 100 - 150 jumps post tunnel, I was doing 20, 30 and 40 ways. There is no way that I would have been doing this without the tunnel ( i did attend a lot of camps and got coaching from the best during my first 100ish jumps after the tunnel - and I had about 800 jumps so already had some general sky awareness)

Now, I had to spend ALOT of jumps improving on diving, floating, exits ect. and still have a ton of work to do, but there's no doubt there were tremendous improvements that are directly attributed to flying in the tunnel.

IMO, its best to do both. Both skydivers-only and tunnel-only peeps will be left in the dust by those who do BOTH regularly and consistently.

I fucking love the tunnel and I fucking love skydiving.:)

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You're right.........See you on the sidelines wathcing.



I guess you missed the part where I have more jumps AND more tunnel than you?

Someone has been on the sidelines, it was just not me.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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Then I should see you on the HD Big Ways this year. Sebastian is in 2 weeks.



Then I guess I should have seen you on the World Record 16 way last year.... Which one were you?
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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Then I should see you on the HD Big Ways this year. Sebastian is in 2 weeks.



Then I guess I should have seen you on the World Record 16 way last year.... Which one were you?



Oh oh oh!

Can I get on this dick measuring contest??????
Remster

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Oh oh oh!

Can I get on this dick measuring contest??????



Of course!

Wait for someone to insult you and then let it rip!
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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He's definately the Bigger One.



Oh look, more childish insults. That the best you got? I am not surprised, you started in this thread with insults and the best you have done so far is throw more of them.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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There is no comparison in jumps vs tunnel but there is in free-fall time vs tunnel, as stated several times. There is a great advantage in tunnel from that perspective though in terms of who fast you can learn.

Take a 15 minute session of coached tunnel you a) get 2 skydives worth of time for each 2 minute rotation then b) you get immediate feed back from your coach and often 2-4 minutes later you are back in the tunnel doing the exercise again and c) 1 hour of tunnel in a day is often equivalent to 6 months or a year of jumping for a lot of people!putting all that learning into 1 hour with everything fresh in terms of muscle memory and timing has to have an advantage.

Now that doesn't mean a minute of tunnel is equal to a jump as there are so many other components to a good AND safe skydive.

The tunnel is a tool that used properly can definitely give more bang for the buck in ONE area of the skydive.

As stated in this thread, they both are needed and have differnet value dependent on how they are used.
my 2 cents.

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Comparing tunnel time V's jump numbers is like comparing watching porn V's having sex!



more like having sex indoors vs. having sex outdoors


More like Tunnel = SEX, nor foreplay, no after play, just SEX.

Skydiving is love making, with all the stuff before and after, including the clean up.. (packing):D:D
You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

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Long post -Sorry but its detailed.


All the back and forth aside here are some simple facts:

1. You don’t learn the following in a wind tunnel:

- Equipment (less jump suits)
- Aircraft procedures
- Exit
- Canopy.

Those you need to practice on actual skydives. Sometimes over confidence from extra freefall skills can bleed into an over confidence in these skill areas, but that is all personality based. If your cocky, your going to be a 200 jump wonder who is an amazing “swooper” regardless of any tunnel time or not.

2. The tunnel has the following advantages:

- Your freefall skills improve at a much faster level. This is through a combination of things:

o Exposure, more tunnel time is like more freefall, only easier to get as you don’t need all the extra resources like waiting for a plane, weather, etc.

o Direct feedback. Because there is a grate and walls it forces your body to learn exactly where its center point is. Often in the sky formations will drift horizontally and everyone on the jump simply compensates for it without knowing. Take a GPS on your next formation jump and you will see what I mean. With the walls of a tunnel you have no choice but to fall perfectly “down the pipe”. This makes learning your neutral much faster then progressing in the air.

o Immediate feedback. In the sky an instructor falls with you, has a few minutes of waiting till you land then de-briefs you. In the tunnel they can walk up and fix your body position immediately and will de-brief you immediately after your 2 min session.

o Currency. The development of muscle memory is always faster when you have a shorter duration of time between inputs. Turn around time in a tunnel is simply faster.



An example of the benefits:

Someone above mentioned that tunnel does not help you on Bigway jumps. They are right and wrong. Here are the arguments:

There are many different types of freefall skills which can NOT be practiced in a tunnel

1. like long dives to a distant base. Its true that tunnel does not help with the long dive. Where it comes in very handy is knowing how to hit the brakes. Slow flying in the tunnel teaches you how to maximize your de-arch to fall as slow as possible. This is exactly the same body position you use when you hit the brakes at the end of a long dive.

2. tracking. As mentioned above you learn how to really slow fall in the tunnel minimizing your vertical rate of descent. A track is essentially the same de-arch except your arms are brought back and lower then your torso and your lets are out. The majority of the lift generated in a track is from a solid torso de-arch, not the small percentage of surface area that your legs and arms have as a ratio to your total surface area.

“How would a tunnel simulate exiting 20th out of an Otter, diving to the base 500 feet below, leveling out, bleeding off your forward approach speed, avoid going low, and taking no-momentem grips on the outside of a 20-way formation?”

This is not a slight toward the original poster, just education for all who read this:

Here is how tunnel would help: Diving out in any orientation (since priority is getting out of the plane quickly) and being stable regardless of what your body position is when you hit the relative wind.

You learn how to backslide really well by dropping your knees (stability drills). This skill really helps you to bleed off excess forward speed on approach.

The ability to really de-arch in order to hit the brakes and ensure you don’t go low. This de-arch really helps to keep you in the stadium for your approach. If you end up level with a formation you still have more slow fall (de-arch) left in your skill set to get back up into the stadium.

A no momentum dock is a close proximity skill. When your body flies perfect and calmly you don’t need to take a grip at all, The perfect big way is one where everyone gets to there slot, flies there slot without taking grips (stop before you dock) verifies there on level and then in one smooth movement its goes grip-grip-grip-grip……..and its built. If everyone leant this skill there would be no more waves that can throw people off the formation.


I have lots of skydives and lots of tunnel so this post is not an argument for or against tunnel, both have benefits and both have draw backs. The bottom line is safety. Freefall will not kill you if you can deploy stable. Canopy can easily kill you if you do not pay attention or get too cocky. So regardless of which side of the argument you are on please highlight to all skydivers that Canopy has killed way too many skydivers then anything else and that every skydive needs to be a carefull one regardless of your skill level.
Downsizing is not the way to prove your manhood.

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Immediate feedback. In the sky an instructor falls with you, has a few minutes of waiting till you land then de-briefs you. In the tunnel they can walk up and fix your body position immediately and will de-brief you immediately after your 2 min session.



I can fix you in freefall as well as in the tunnel. The only real difference is that the student is normally more relaxed and if they don't "get" what I am saying I can pull them out, tell them and then throw them back in.

But to claim that someone can't "fix a body position" in freefall is not accurate.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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Fair enough. The exact wording used to describe that feedback doesnt matter. Its different when you can walk up make an adjustment (or pull them out and tell them) then on a skydive when they are partially distracted by the ground.
Downsizing is not the way to prove your manhood.

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