Mantis Position

[pltearth 0]

I know everyone learns at a different rate, but I was just wondering how much tunnel time on average do you think is enough to master the Mantis?? Both for a fast learner and a slow one?

[theonlyski 3]

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I know everyone learns at a different rate, but I was just wondering how much tunnel time on average do you think is enough to master the Mantis?? Both for a fast learner and a slow one?

Well, depends how many jumps you have before hand. Old habits are hard to break!

To master it? Gonna be a while! To get decent at it? Maybe an hour or two.

The hardest part for me was to stop defaulting into the box-man...

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
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[emmiwy 0]

(An aside: some may argue that the mantis is not really the proper position for RW flying [if that is your goal], rather a modified version of the box-man we learn as students. I come from the camp that mantis is actually not an efficient way of flying. See if an experienced RW flyer can explain to you why this may be true.)

If you are interested in learning the mantis position I'll presume that you are prepared to get a coach to teach you proper body mechanics. So I think it really depends on your coach's teaching style, how well you may communicate and fly with said coach, and pick up the mechanics. The mechanics of flying mantis are not difficult, but how your body may adapt to it physically, whether you understand certain how to fly your body and become more air aware all play into learning how to fly your body in a specific orientation, particularly when you get into more unstable positions (i.e. back, sitfly, headdown). As the previous response mentioned, breaking bad habits from the number of jumps you had prior would be an inhibiting factor, simply because you are retraining your body and muscles to fly differently, akin to learning yoga for example. Good luck!

[hokierower 0]

I was doing mantis after about 20 minutes in the tunnel between jump 4 & 5. It's most likely up to your coach and how easily you're picking up on the concepts that they're teaching you. Don't progress to the next step if you can't handle the previous one.

Even after learning the mantis, I don't fly it in the sky, rather I fly the modified box-man that pltearth was refering to. I fly my body so that I can do what I need to, not so that I maintain a certain "style".

[rehmwa 2]

IMO - Mantis is a very effective and efficient way to fly. The more precise I am in maintaining the basic concepts the better I fly my body.

I took a hell of a lot more than 70 jumps or 20 minutes of tunnel time to get there.

Give it a few 100 jumps before deciding - you won't be disappointed. I had to unlearn 1000 jumps of boxman to get there and with an additional 3000 I find the mantis lessons help with every aspect of flying, including my freeflying.


(Many also don't realize that the concept of mantis contains a pretty wide range of arm and leg positions and they are turned off by the false concept that it has to be 'exactly just so' rather than just working certain basics. there is not a lot of complexity in the idea of the following:

1 - a VERY defined center/low point on the body where the flow stagnation point stays put (whereas boxman has an 'area' of center where it dances around, mantis tries to define the 'point' to as small as can be)
2 - leveraging the legs/booties for power (better than boxman which uses shoulders and torso, ignoring the huge surface area of the legs/booties)
3 - freeing up the arms (also better than boxman)
4 - balanced moves at the extreme leverage points (high radius inputs - vs boxman which again uses shoulders and torques the center of mass)
5 - straight spine and minimal head switch movement to maintain the center points (again, boxman can be swirly as the spine contorts)
6 - the energy of controlled air movement gives stability like an airplane wing (boxman you gain stability from arm/leg drag - like a shuttlecock's feathers)

I'm not sure what's less 'efficient' about this - even in skydiving, the laws of physics still apply.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Ron 7]

1st thing you need to know is that the mantis is not a one position body position.... More like a flying style that focuses on getting your head up and using your legs more.

I fly the concepts on everything but tandems, but that does not mean if you looked at me at any one point in the sky that I would be in a picture perfect "mantis" body position.... Between keys/grips/flashing.... It just is not going to happen.

The time it takes to learn will TOTALLY depend on you and your coach.

Suffice to say, that in 30 mins to an hour most people have started to get the concepts....

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enough to master the Mantis??

Wrong question to ask.... I don't consider myself to have "mastered" it and that is with 5k+ jumps and 200+ hours of tunnel with several medals and a World Record.

I have been able to get people into the position in just a few minutes (10) and some people never really get it. Most of the time the more jumps you have, the longer it takes. I have a few friends that have 4000 jumps and I just can't get them to change their old habits.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[pltearth 0]

Hey all, and thanks for the answers!
I hear many say it's hard to break the habits once you've jumped the boxman style for awhile. I only have 24 jumps, spread over a period of over a year almost, due to some limitations I've had. I'm soon to get back in the sport, but I'm going to start in the tunnel. I do eventually want to try out RW, and I do want to get the hang of the mantis style.
I guess my question now is is it better to learn the mantis now that I haven't even gotten used to the boxman?

Thanks to all!

[Ron 7]

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is it better to learn the mantis now

Yes, I start people on the Mantis as soon as they can show me they can get stable in a normal position. For some that might be 10 mins of tunnel, or 10 jumps.

But I have taught a person pre-AFF to fly the mantis in the tunnel and then they used that position on their first jump.

I have had this discussion several times with a tunnel/AFF student.
Student: Can I fly in the mantis on this jump?
Me: Can you be stable?
Student: Yes.
Me: Then yes.

It is a body position that will only help you. Don't buy into some people telling you that it only works on "4way".... I have used it on AFF jumps to a 110 way and everything in between.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[champu 1]

I think there might be a communication issue as I know in some circles the term "mantis" is synonymous with a particular exaggerated arm position. Whereas keeping your head high/up, your hips as your lowest point, and engaging your booties are just generically called "good body position."

To the OP I would say get a good RW suit made for you and have a good coach teach your how to fly it once you have it.

[Ron 7]

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I think there might be a communication issue as I know in some circles the term "mantis" is synonymous with a particular exaggerated arm position. Whereas keeping your head high/up, your hips as your lowest point, and engaging your booties are just generically called "good body position."

The "good body position" of head high, hips down, and using your bootties is the mantis body position... The arms are just part of it, but a part that helps allow all the other parts to come into play.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Gators1240 9]

As many others have said so far I would not try to constrict it to a predefined single body position. I started learning mantis when I was around 20 jumps and 2 hours of tunnel time and even then had to break myself out of the boxman style and consciously think about using mantis.

The biggest benefit I see is really learning to use your legs more to control your body position both by themself and in conjunction with your upper body.

With any body position it is more about feeling the flying and training your muscles to do what you want them to do without thinking about HOW to do it. Think about the whole "Look left turn left" mentality that you are taught while going through AFF and apply that to any style of flying you want. Everyone is different and some things work for some people and some things work for others, you really just need to find out what works best for you and what you are more comfortable with.

[RufusW 0]

Could anyone point to a good video showing the Mantis? It seems to me very similar to the box, but with hands below your face - therefore forcing you to use your legs/hips more, but not actually putting them in much of a different position. It looks more stable and a position from which you can move/react more quickly from.

[jhm 0]

Lots of good video on Rhythm's website...here's just one example:

http://www.rhythmskydiving.com/gallery.html#

There used to be another website which would've been a good resource for you....called "tunnelcamp.com". Contained several good demonstration videos of various moves and associated body inputs. I don't believe the website is up anymore, but some of those videos might still be out there in cyberspace somewhere.

Good luck and kudos to you for making the deliberate effort to improve your flying!