frost 1 #26 January 7, 2010 Quote Ill ask you this, do you honestly think that it appropriate for someone at that level to be coaching? You didnt make quite that strong of a point about him coaching others earlier. You did however point out how funny he looks in the tunnel. Twice. And the fact is: he doesn't. He looks pretty damn good. Much better than most. Or are you saying that every IBA (or locally trained) tunnel instructor can do what Ray Kubiak can right after they finish their training?? Nonsense. I have seen certified instructors that cant do half of what Olav is doing in that video, old school style or not. To answer your question: he has a ton of prior coaching experience, he is a good tunnel flyer and an awesome skydiver. So yes, i think he can safely coach at his level of tunnel skill, especially if he is coaching lighter and/or beginner people or kids as the video shows. Why do you think it is inappropriate for him to coach others? Is he unsafe? Is it unethical? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rstanley0312 1 #27 January 7, 2010 Quote Quote Quote if you knew me, you'd know that aint the case! Ok.... fisrt realize I only have 260 jumps and 2 hrs of tunnel but I gotta know.... is he that bad? I mean I've watched way better but does he really suck? No.He's actually quite good. He's just not used to flying in the tunnel. I know he is good... Orly talked about it every now and again. I've watched him in the sky.... I was asking if this tunnel video shows he is horrible. Like I said.... he is not a stud in these vids but he doesn't suck does he?Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it. Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000 www.fundraiseadventure.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rstanley0312 1 #28 January 7, 2010 QuoteBy many accounts he's been coaching there for the past couple of months... None withstanding... your avoiding the question, do you think its appropriate for him to be coaching at that level? As you obviously believe he'll learn very quickly(or has) then given he's been there for a couple months, he obviously started coaching there at an even lower level than this. Two bits of advice 1) Actually awnser the questions 2) Dont get into a slagging match with me This is another point I will make.... Im working very hard on my skillset with more tunnel hours scheduled as I really want to move towards VFS in the future..... but you post this and mock his flying and for a second I really thought to myself wow I have not come a long way and I must just suck. Then I realized of course that there is probably more to the story. I am not attacking you just letting you know how you are coming off. You may be way better than he is... I have no idea but to "laugh" at him and mock him also insults those of us who are below that level. I just think you took tto much time mocking him instead of making a valid point.Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it. Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000 www.fundraiseadventure.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 1 #29 January 7, 2010 Quote I know he is good... Orly talked about it every now and again. I've watched him in the sky.... I was asking if this tunnel video shows he is horrible. Like I said.... he is not a stud in these vids but he doesn't suck does he? No, he does not suck. He's flying just fine in a smooth controlled manner.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chrishines 0 #30 January 7, 2010 Fedykin (Piers Roberts), I find your hypocrisy to be of legendary proportion! You are questioning Olav's credibility to coach in the tunnel? You are in no position to make any kind of comment regarding credibility. In fact, I can't think of anybody right now whom I deem less credible than you. In case you are suffering acute amnesia you still owe me and my friends for tunnel time flown in 2008! Oh and apparently a former friend of yours is still chasing you for money you borrowed from him. Interesting that you can afford to attend Summerfest and holiday in Eloy but you can't pay back nice people who let you use their discount tunnel time (oh and people who pay your car insurance). I would hazard a guess that Olav is paying for his tunnel time or has setup a deal with Bottrop. Unlike you he appears not to be hopping from tunnel to tunnel, cheating, stealing and generally trampling on people who are unfortunate enough to get in his way. I'm not sure if you've noticed but Olav's been around a while. He appears to be the kind of guy who really thinks about what he does and you would have to be blind, stupid or psychopathically arrogant to deny his contribution to our sport! It appears all you are capable of doing is criticizing!? I cite your (personal) criticism of Marco Tiezzi, another notable contributor to our sport. What's your contribution Piers? Would I get tunnel coaching from Olav? No, not right now. I'm focusing on VFS skills, there are coaches much more suitable for teaching me these skills. Does Olav have skills to teach others? Absolutely! There's more than one style of flying! Flying for VFS, wearing a black jumpsuit and a full face is not the only way to skydive! Incidentally I subscribe to all three of these right now but I only got the black jumpsuit to blend in on big ways. I looked like too much of a dick in my bright white washing powder commercial suit ;-) When I have sought coaching in the sky or in the tunnel I have asked myself the following questions: Is the coach better than me at the skill I am trying to acquire? Is the coach capable of looking out for my safety? Can they spot bad things before they happen? Can they push me but not too far? Can they assist dealing with things when they go wrong? Do I get on with them? Are they my kind of person? Are they able to have fun? Can they help motivate me? What do they charge? From looking at the video and considering Olav's longevity in the sport I think that he could answer these questions positively for many people starting out in the tunnel. Not everybody is learning for VFS! The other thing to consider is that this video is from November last year. It's very possible that Olav's personal tunnel skills have changed since that time. It's possible to change your flying very quickly with lots of tunnel time. I personally flew a lot of time during December this year and made lots of breakthroughs. I consider myself a lot better flyer now than two months ago. Piers, you're a good flyer but I suggest you stay away from any debate involving credibility. It may also be best if you do not become a tunnel coach yourself. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CazmoDee 3 #31 January 7, 2010 BAM!!!!!!!I'm behind the bar at Sloppy Joe's....See ya in the Keys! Muff 4313 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewnewell 0 #32 January 7, 2010 Despite the negativity surrounding the original post, all of this does raise a valid point. When is someone ready to coach? Obviously, it not likely the answer will be black and white, as there are many different coaches all at different levels and all using different styles. I can only comment on the IBA system to which I subscribe. It’s has a good solid structure and sets definitive bench marks for students to aim for. As all good coaches know, the ability to follow a structured program is not the be all and end all of being a good coach. In my humble opinion I would say a good tunnel / skydiving coach needs a few basic things to provide a good service. To give honest feed back in such a way as to not create barriers in the students progression. To follow or at least utilise tried and tested systems that work and are above all else safe! To follow the rules of the tunnel. Obviously this is Paramount in order to keep things safe. In IBA tunnels, it is the instructors job to keep practice safe, but a good coach should be aware of the rules helping the instructor to maintain a controlled environment. To be able to communicate well with the student, instructor and driver To be able to demonstrate both good and bad practice and to be able to breakdown technique. I.e. slowing down transitions… The last point is particularly relevant as I believe this is what ‘Fedykin’ is basing his argument on. Despite the initial posts being slightly puerile in nature, they have raised some relevant points. With this in mind, I suggest that this topic is locked as it is obviously far too personal in nature for any real good to come from it and a new topic started to better explore the question; when are people ready to be coaches?…. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chrishines 0 #33 January 7, 2010 You make several good points about coaching Mr. Newell, I agree with you. I forgot to mention communication! So very important when getting tunnel coaching. I agree with some of the soft skills you mention too. Interesting, I like your approach. Who taught you? Structure yes but there's often more than one way to do something. This was the point I was trying to make with the VFS reference. There appears to be a bit of a pack mentality regarding Freefly body positions and tunnel learning. Don't get me wrong, I like the VFS style body positions and I'm doing everything I can to get better at them. However, there are other ways to fly too! I kinda like some of the stuff Olav's doing in there.... I also think the IBA is great! Having said that I've also seen a fair number of great flyers come out of Bedford. Not sure why you feel the need to jump to the defense of Fedykin (again)? He likes to publicly criticize others, should he therefore not be open to similar scrutiny himself? By all means start a more targeted thread about when tunnel flyers are ready to coach but that's not how this thread was started (by Fedykin). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chrishines 0 #34 January 8, 2010 Rstanley0312 if you are flying like Olav, great! Big up yourself cause it's awesome to be able to do that in the tunnel. I applaud your commitment because I'm sure it did not come for free! Everybody has to start somewhere, even the lords of the tunnel. As you get more advanced I suggest looking for a coach who you want to fly like and who fits the criteria I mentioned before. If you want to fly VFS style find somebody who is advocate of this type of flying and has some team experience. If you want to Freefly, find somebody who flies like you want to. If you want to belly fly, give up cause it's boring! - That's a joke BTW ;-) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewnewell 0 #35 January 8, 2010 Fair points about position and structure. Of course the beauty of bodyflight is that it is pretty much one of the only ways humans can explore the full potential of what their bodys are capable of, in a what could be described as a limitless environment (limitless dependant of cash flow! lol). I couldn’t agree with you more about the pack mentality in regards to set positioning as being the answer to everything .. It’s not necessarily a bad thing however, as set positions do allow people to create a start point from which they can then go on and to learn to fully explore their full capabilities…. This approach is something I’m very keen on exploiting, in fact my whole coaching philosophy is based a foundationary positional method. Just to clarify and I’m sure your fully aware, I have had instruction from a great number of world class flyers both in and out of tunnels, including Olav and all though I don’t share a similar philosophy with Olav I will say that I learned many things from him. My take on the IBA: The IBA system is what I consider to be a great progressive structure; it is without a doubt logical and well thought out system that is also flexible enough for coaches to attach their own philosophy onto it. Don’t get me wrong, it is by far the be all and end all of bodyflying but it does act as a great skeletal frame work on which a coach can choose to hang their own techniques To answer your points about Piers. Well apart from being a good friend of mine I happen to think that Piers brings up many good points on a regular basis. I don’t think jumping to his defence is something that I regularly have to do and I’m sure Piers has thick enough skin to endure some public banter without my moral support. As you might have guessed, my initial interest in this topic was based on the fact that piers had made a post about someone we both know. Now despite the fact that the initial posts are somewhat silly in nature and as with most of ‘Fedykins’ posts being in the same vein (to create controversy no doubt) I tend to take most of his comments on public forums with a pinch of salt. Despite the heresy and subsequent outrage etc… This topic has generated a discussion on when are people ready to coach? Can’t we take this positive aspect away from the initial trivia and forum bashing? OK so the target in this case is a very well respected skydiver, but hey, I see plenty of very talented skydivers Jump in the tunnel all the time that are not at the level where they are, what I consider to be, coaching at a reasonable standard. I guess you could put all of this down to perception, but if there really is no weight in this argument the why are there things like the IBA coaches ‘rating’ out there.? To finish on your final point about Fedykin; Yes he is on a public forum and is as open to scrutiny and attack as is anyone else. I say crack on but I doubt your gonna get a swing on his botheredomitter and all this really does is create more negativity. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chrishines 0 #36 January 8, 2010 Andy, I think we are in violent agreement on many points! No one single person has all the answers, what works for one student does not necessarily work for another. Nobody has perfected skydiving or tunnel flying, that's why we're still doing it. The truth is, there's no right or wrong, just different ways of doing things. The most important thing is that each individual follows what they want to do. Coaches help you get there and hopefully help make the ride fun! Of course I know you coached with Olav, it's why I raised it. With 20,000 jumps and 23 years in the sport of skydiving I think it's safe to say the guy has some knowledge to share. Granted that this does not automatically translate to tunnel! We are all agreed on this point I think. But when combined with 50 hours tunnel (in the past year?) I figure he's got something to say and something to teach. If I were a tunnel coach I'm pretty sure I'd go as far down the IBA route as I could. Although I'm unsure as to the detail of the IBA's commercial relationship with Skyventure. Could Bottrop even be IBA? Sure the instructors could be IBA rated but that's not quite the same (is it?). Would the IBA go to Bottrop to train instructors? ISG offers a competing technology to Skyventure after all. How does Bottrop view getting IBA rated? Maybe things are different for a non-Skyventure tunnel employee regards getting an IBA rating. I took exception to Fedykin's arrogant, dismissive and presumptuous view especially because he was essentially addressing a point of credibility. I think the original post and subsequent contributions from Fedykin were entirely negative and critical without positive contribution. Maybe you should have a word with your friend about negativity? At the same time can you ask him to pay his tunnel bill from 18 months ago? Fedykin evidently does not have a "botheredomitter", I'm not sure he could care less about anybody else. All his posts appear to be related to massaging his own ego, criticizing or creating controversy. Well.... he got some. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hparrish 0 #37 January 8, 2010 QuoteCheck this out, is this just me or is this like a Commodore 64 style technique in the age of the MacBook pro.... Awesome!!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5w5D6vC6Nf0 I think he's flying pretty well for the amount of Tunnel Time he has. Not sure what you think is so old school about Olav. Looks to me like he is learning a new discipline (Tunnel), and applying a shit load of Freefly experience. I guess your tunnel skills can match his in the sky huh?? I'd like to see your pidley 4000 jumps match 24,000 jumps of experience. That would be funny to watch. Hey were you on the 108 way Record???? He was, but I don't see how that was possible with him being so "Old School". You sound like a [PA removed by slotperfect]. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RackJR 0 #38 January 8, 2010 I read the entire thread before i watched the video. i'm confused. Olav is the guy in white/green i'm assuming? watching the video convinced me that you have no idea what you're talking about. from the posts of others, i take it you have some tunnel time, which normally would lead me to believe that you understand the kind of commitment it takes to get to the level of flying that he's doing. that didn't happen here, obviously. others have already commented on your possible motives. i have no idea what they are. i have seen better tunnel flyers. i've seen Olav in the sky, and i can say i've seen better skydivers. which is not to say that he's a "commodore 64" in the tunnel or the sky. far from it. if he were flying like a muppet in there, his accomplishments within, and contributions to skydiving would still deserve more respect than to mock him in a forum that he will likely never read. if he were flying like a muppet, those experiences would still make him a better coach than 90% of the people out there coaching. he's not flying like a muppet. he's flying very well. cartwheeling to his head, backflips and frontflips to his head, clean transitions back to sit, flying with multiple flyers. and he's pushing himself, trying to do things that may not be comfortable. as a tunnel rat, i've seen people coach head down who could not fly on their heads themselves. i've seen belly coaches teach people to pull with the wrong hand. standing in the door, i've watched coaches teach things that i believe to be completely wrong. But the student didn't hire me, and it's therefore not my place to correct anything, unless it becomes unsafe. maybe i don't know exactly what he's trying to teach. and worst of all, IMO, i've seen people like you, who mock others for trying to teach. i didn't actually see him do any coaching in that video, so i can't comment on his ability to coach. but certainly nothing about his flying would make me think his coaching was anything but top notch. i think we should also add that he's forgotten more about skydiving than you and i will ever know. i wish everyone who tried to coach in the tunnel was as qualified as he is. i wonder how much i could have learned, if he had been coaching where i was an instructor. Also, although i think it's unlikely (based on what i read) that Olav is actually the guy in black/white at the end of the video.... if that IS him, you're [PA removed by slotperfect. Say what you mean. Do what you say. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
keithwilfort 0 #39 January 8, 2010 what a great read this thread is... rarely people line up to back Olav.... i would use this as a learning experience.... make sure you measure yourself before you look to size someone else up.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tsalnukt 1 #40 January 10, 2010 most of coaching is recognizing what someone is doing wrong and telling them how to fix it. Theoretically, you don't really need any tunnel time to be able to coach somebody. You just have to have a thorough understanding of what you are trying to accomplsh. Olav has been caoching for a very long time and I think if you look at the long list of bad-ass skydivers that have been through "the 1st school" i would say that he is more than qualified to coach someone in the tunnel. The "meat and potatos" of coaching is video debriefing after the flight. According to you..Michael Phelps swimming coach should be able to swim faster than him, Greg Loughanis diving coach should be better than him, Lance armstrong's coach should be able to beat him in the tour-de-france, etc, etc. So he doesn't have a lot of tunnel time and doesn't fly as well as you do in the tunnel....that makes him a bad coach??????? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RackJR 0 #41 January 11, 2010 well said.... Say what you mean. Do what you say. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewnewell 0 #42 January 11, 2010 Theoretically, you don't really need any tunnel time to be able to coach somebody. You just have to have a thorough understanding of what you are trying to accomplishQuote I disagree on this point; to say that you don’t need any tunnel time to coach in the tunnel but do need a thorough understanding of what you are trying to accomplish is simply contradictory. If this was the case we would only need coaches who understand how to coach and have no specific knowledge of the discipline. Of course a Tunnel coach needs to be able to fly and not only to be able to fly but to fly at an accomplished level. The reason for this is simple, a tunnel coach needs to be able to demonstrate certain technique, to be able to break it down and to be able to demonstrate incorrect technique if required. He also needs to know what the hell he is talking about. Im pretty Lance Armstrong’s coach has climbed onto a bike once in a while, Im also sure that Michael Phelps swimming coach has been a swimming pool. The fact of the matter is that these professional sports coaches would have had massive experience in their particular disciplines and are more often than not former champions or at the very least highly technical coaches who specialise with all sorts of things like psychology, nutrition, physiology, physiotherapy ect….. …. most of coaching is recognizing what someone is doing wrong and telling them how to fix it……QuoteHow can you do this When you don’t have a clue what they are doing wrong and are unsure as to the correct technique has you have never set foot in a wind tunnel?????? I personally watch on a regular basis some coaches (Pretty good skydivers with zero tunnel experience) who actually believe in what you’re saying and have no issue in passing on bad information / technique to students. Watching them trying to walk around the wind tunnel, falling over, looking like complete dicks would be highly amusing if it wasn’t so sad. Olav has been coaching for a very long time and I think if you look at the long list of bad-ass skydivers that have been through "the 1st school" I would say that he is more than qualified to coach someone in the tunnel.*** Does it? Is it really that simple. If so then why is Olav learning to fly in the tunnel? Surely footage of him re learning how to fly is proof that you need to be competent in that environment in order provided a good service. Let me put it this way, I see plenty of tunnel flyers taking to the sky with ease but few finding the reverse an easy transition. Just because you’re a very good skydiving coach doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re going to be a good tunnel coach. There’s no room for black magic in the wind tunnels. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chrishines 0 #43 January 12, 2010 I think it's possible to understand the mechanics of human body flight without being able to perform it but a coach is going to be pretty shallow if he or she has never battled to achieve what the student is trying to learn. Some of the best instruction I have received has been along the lines of "think about X when you are trying to do Y" or "look in the direction of A when trying trying to perform B". These subtle instructions are not developed by standing in the door watching others fly. Questions of style aside, it looks like Olav can fly in all of the basic body positions and has learned to do so recently. Perhaps his recent acquisition of these skills could be of benefit when coaching a student to be able to do the same? Maybe the 1,000 hr + tunnel lords have forgotten small things that were useful to them when they first learned. I will reiterate, if you want to learn VFS (style) Olav is not the guy to call right now. But if you fly at Bottrop, want to get off the net and want the experience of a long time skydiver who's helped mold our sport then I would say Olav's a contender. Give Olav another six months and Fedykin could be eating his black factory diver! None of my comments are intended to dilute the excellent services of those tunnel coaches who have thousands of hours time and have assisted students through successful programs of learning. The two main tunnel coaches I've used have thousands of hours and are considered to be real rats. I am just trying to illustrate that this is a grey area and dismissing Olav as a coach is a step too far. In the end, it comes down to the student's preference. As long the coaching is being conducted within acceptable safety limits I think it's ok for the student to assess whether they are learning and taking their flying in the direction they want to go. Incidentally, I think the tunnel itself should be responsible for assessing whether a coach is safe enough to be allowed to operate at their tunnel . If you are a student tunnel flyer looking for a coach I think you should: Ask people you know and trust for a recommendation. Look at which coaches operate at the tunnel you want to fly at. They don't all travel! Do a taster session with the coach and ask all the questions I mentioned in my earlier post. After a few sessions evaluate your progress. If you're happy with your progress who cares what anybody else thinks! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stayhigh 2 #44 January 12, 2010 i think olav's job is to make skydiver's fly better in SKY with a help of wind tunnel NOT make skydivers become better tunnel flyer... big difference... with both knowledge of sky and tunnel he'll probably teach the student what they need to fly sit or head down well in SKY not in tunnel.. if you wanna become badass tunnel flyer than go find best tunnel flyer out there... if you wanna become best skydiver go find skydiving coach... after all, most skydiver could care less about doing cartwheels along the glass or spider man tricks.. they just wanna fly straight down and dock on people is all...Bernie Sanders for President 2016 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lana26 0 #45 January 12, 2010 Olav offered to coach me in the tunnel, Thing is i am better than him and have been flyer pro for 3 years, However his attitude was "Well i am Ze father of freefly".. Was very insulting when i can clearly fly circles around him!! His coaching is not up to speed if anything he should only be coaching basics but trying to promote advanced coaching is absurd and dangerous imo. He is not the only one doing this. There are many coaches who should learn to fly first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stayhigh 2 #46 January 12, 2010 if olav offerers you coaching than tell him to fuck off.. if olav offerers me coaching in tunnel ill probably tell him to fuck off as well but that is not the point here tho... ill bet people who goes to him is skydivers who jumps where olav jumps, and they probably got frustrated after 20 sit try and went to him for an answer... and we all know that even without coaching you be good flyer after 1000 jumps... and i've seen L4 instructor who can out fly almost all yet he sucks hard when it comes to teaching something relate to skydiving..Bernie Sanders for President 2016 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewnewell 0 #47 January 12, 2010 Quotei think olav's job is to make skydiver's fly better in SKY with a help of wind tunnel NOT make skydivers become better tunnel flyer...big difference... with both knowledge of sky and tunnel he'll probably teach the student what they need to fly sit or head down well in SKY not in tunnel.. This has to be a wind up! Ill reply to this anyway...There might be people that actually think like this who need help. Olav is a freefly coach? His job is to coach freeflying, right?. OK so there are small differences with tunnel flying and skydiving I.e. skydiving: exits, tracking. With the tunnel: flying in a contained environment /tunnel tricks.... A part from those examples, The fundamentals of flight are pretty much the same. With this in mind the comment about skydivers becoming better tunnel flyers is inaccurate, good coaching in either sky or tunnel just leads to better flyers. I dont think its correct to determine the flying style of tunnel flyers as tunnel flying, it is just the right way to fly; both in the tunnel and in the sky. If this was not the case, then why do some many teams use the tunnel to refine skills. The numbers speak for themselves. I mentioned previously how tunnel flyers make the transition to skydiving a lot easier than the other way around; Well Apart from the so called 'style' of flyers who have tunnel experience, these people also have a better and more technical understanding about how their bodies work in the air, this combined with prolonged and condensed exposure to the aerial environment invariably leads them to master skydiving at an accelerated rate. Of course I am biased but it does seem pretty conclusive to me, that if you learn to fly in the tunnel, in a technical manner, you will be better off in the sky. I might be wrong but I dont see many good tunnel flyers, flying head up with their arms right back leaning forward into the wind. A common sight in the sky. If someone does teach stuff that reinforces or introduces this type of bad technique in the tunnel because 'this is the skydivers way of doing it' or ‘this is how I teach it in the sky’ for instance, then they are doing a good job of fleecing that student. Quoteand we all know that even without coaching you be good flyer after 1000 jumps... Well thats a load of old shit isnt really. I've seen, and Im sure pretty sure Im not the only one, plenty of people with over a 1000 Jumps who are utter pants! There are lots of things to be taken into consideration when talking about peoples level of ability. Jump numbers is one of them, but its certainly not the be all and end all. what if it takes some dude 30 years to accumulate that amount of jumps? do you think they’re gonna be 'good'? What ever good means. Quoteif you wanna become badass tunnel flyer than go find best tunnel flyer out there... if you wanna become best skydiver go find skydiving coach... after all, most skydiver could care less about doing cartwheels along the glass or spider man tricks.. they just wanna fly straight down and dock on people is all... I suppose being both a tunnel rat and a skydiver, Im qualified to comment on this one aswell. Personally I want to be able to do it all. mainly because flying is flying shit bust and to be good at it requires to be able to do it all. In my opinion there are now two definitive route to the same point (whatever that is changes for the individual i guess) its just that one of them is a lot straighter, and in most cases shorter. Don’t con your selves, learn in the tunnel and play in the sky. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites