I live close to a wind tunnel....Skeptical about it....Can freeflying in a tunnel hinder your ability to do it in a freefall??

[mdrejhon 8]

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so give the tunnel an honest try. do a 15 minutes session with a qualified coach

15 minutes is good if you choose a good coach

15 minutes with a regular Skyventure tunnel instructor (non-skydiver) may feel like a waste of time for some skydivers just trying the tunnel for the first time. Not always, but it happens sometimes.

One needs to be flexible in both boxman and mantis. For a while, I was throughly confused on how to slowfall because the mantis method of slowfall is somewhat different from the boxman method of slowfall. But once you get practice in both and know how both work, you're more flexible. Sometimes it just requires buying a couple more hours of tunnel time.

[RackJR 0]

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15 minutes with a regular Skyventure tunnel instructor (non-skydiver) may feel like a waste of time for some skydivers just trying the tunnel for the first time. Not always, but it happens sometimes.

i'm a regular skyventure tunnel instructor. and although i do skydive, there are several instructors at SVCO who do not skydive. the 3 that come to mind would outfly anyone but perhaps the very, very top of the skydiving community. they did not get there through skydiving. they got there in the tunnel. they're also excellent coaches, and communicate skills better than most skydiving coaches i've seen. one of them is currently coaching a brother/sister team of kids at around (i believe) a 17 point average, belly flying. Mike Swanson was my freefly coach when i started. When he wanted coaching, he went to Joe Winters. i don't know how many jumps Joe has, around 80 i think, but Joe suggested belly flying, and coached Mike on that.

so, if you mean that it's possible to find a bad coach/tunnel instructor, then yeah, it can happen. i think it's a lot easier to find a bad skydiving instructor. but that is why i said "a good coach". i think even average skyventure instructors are very good coaches.

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One needs to be flexible in both boxman and mantis.

his question was about freeflying, not belly. however, since you mentioned it.....even our newest instructors can help the vast majority of belly flyers to improve their skills.

ask an aff instructor if they'd rather jump with someone who's just showed up to the dz, with no tunnel, for level 3, or someone who did their first 15 minutes this morning, warming up for level 3.

as for freeflying, and it's ability to help, Derek Cox used to work for SVCO, and he jumped on the 69 way record with around 400 jumps. Steph Strange currently works at SVCO. she did the womens 20 way record with 228 jumps. there are more examples of how the tunnel helps than you could come up with about how it doesn't, or find ways to say that it might be "a waste of time".

but to anyone that's still not sure, don't take my word for it. find a good coach, and give it a try yourself. you won't be disappointed.

Say what you mean. Do what you say.

[mdrejhon 8]

Just read this just now.
(I read the PM before this reply.)

See my large article, endorsed by multiple tunnel coaches:
Why Wind Tunnels Benefits Big Ways

If one is criticizing my endorsement of skydiving-specific tunnel instructor, I'll add this:

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Yes, there are bad skydiver tunnel instructors, and good non-skydiver tunnel instructors, but if you're a newbie and you're confused of what coach to get -- it's generally a guideline to get a good skydiver who happens to be a tunnel instructor -- i.e. I've been coached by Perris Fury as well as Team Evolution (Canada's #1 4-way team, who runs tunnel camps). Such people are, probably, the preferred choice for a first-time tunnel flyer that's jittery about parting with about $800 of money for an hour of tunnel time, unless many pro freeflyer friends recommend, say, a specific stunning non-skydiving tunnel instructor who's very good at coaching freefly. Or a particular discipline of choice. Regardless, what matters is you want to make sure you get very good referrals to get the right good tunnel instructor.

In a followup to that thread, I also posted an explanation about why I recommended newbies to get an HOUR of tunnel time instead of 15 minutes of tunnel time. The satisfaction ratings of an experienced skydiver first-time tunnel for a 1 hour purchase is massively higher than a 15 minute purchase, because of the initial clumsy 15-minute "familiarization period" (if one has never been in a tunnel). If you only buy 15 minutes, a first timer sometimes feels like it is a waste of time, because of this 'effect'. So thusly, I recommend lots of tunnel time.

Again, observe I used the word "may" in the post that I made. It's not supposed to be interpreted as all skyventure tunnel instructors are bad. There are those actually much better than tunnel instructors who are skydivers. But as it is often typical, the experienced-skydiver-but-tunnel-newbie who only purchased 15 minutes of first-time-ever tunnel time, and find that they spend the whole 15 minutes with unexpectedly-lowered-expectations of only adapting to the tunnel (when they had hoped to sudden know how to sitfly in just 15 minutes, or to score complex points in belly RW), especially if coached by a randomly selected coach, may decide they don't want to spend for an hour of tunnel time on a future visit (or even end up avoiding tunnels altogether). For a first-timer, sometimes the odds are sometimes stacked against their expectations, so might as well throw somebody who understands their needs, and figures out how to give their money's worth, getting past the 'initial tunnel adaptation' period, into the 'wow-i'm-learning-lots' period. Once a skydiver is familiar with the tunnel, then they are in a better position to explain to the instructor what they want to be coached on, or fly only with door supervision learning by self or with another friend (as in 2-way, 3-way or 4-way) -- and it's far easier to set expectations, not to be dissapointed... And they can easily watch other instructors and learn about other good instructors too, even non-skydiving instructors.

Yes, many people get addicted to the tunnel on the first try. Yes, many AFF students easily find it useful even with just 15 minutes purchase. But often, a 500 jump guy who has never flown in the tunnel, who purchases only 10 or 15 minutes, unexpectedly find themselves back at square 1, trying to adapt to the tunnel. Especially skydivers who know nothing about mantis flying -- you tunnel instructors might be familiar with skydivers getting frustrated having to relearn a new bodyflying position they never had to use, rather than learning how to slowfall. It may not fit their discipline (i.e. mantis benefits 4-way flying, but not necessarily 100-ways -- Kate Cooper ordered all of us to do boxman, for example.) I love mantis now, but you can get the idea of the tunnel learning curve, that relates to a lot of aspects in freefly, bellyfly, etc... Too many skydivers set too high expectations for their first-ever 15 minutes.

One example of difficulty I had when I purchased only 15 minutes of tunnel time, was that mantis slowfall feels very different from boxman slowfall -- then in the sky, I was totally confused which to go. Tunnel temporarily made me worse at slowfall because of mantis-boxman confusion. But after one hour -- BAM -- PRESTO -- I could do it either way, and do it much better than before. Now I have almost 5 hours, and plan to maybe do 10 hours next year (especially with the reduction of cost that comes with sharing the costs of the chamber, by flying belly 4-ways in the tunnel, which I already do.)

Regardless of this, moral of the story: For a first timer, give the TUNNEL a 'honest' try. Therefore, that's why I recommend going all-in, 1 full hour, rather than a fractional 10 or 15 minutes. That way one learns beyond the tunnel adaptation phase, and gets satisfaction.
I strongly stand by this.

[Vallerina 2]

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But as it is often typical, the experienced-skydiver-but-tunnel-newbie who only purchased 15 minutes of first-time-ever tunnel time, and find that they spend the whole 15 minutes with unexpectedly-lowered-expectations of only adapting to the tunnel (when they had hoped to sudden know how to sitfly in just 15 minutes, or to score complex points in belly RW), especially if coached by a randomly selected coach, may decide they don't want to spend for an hour of tunnel time on a future visit (or even end up avoiding tunnels altogether). For a first-timer, sometimes the odds are sometimes stacked against their expectations, so might as well throw somebody who understands their needs, and figures out how to give their money's worth, getting past the 'initial tunnel adaptation' period, into the 'wow-i'm-learning-lots' period. Once a skydiver is familiar with the tunnel, then they are in a better position to explain to the instructor what they want to be coached on, or fly only with door supervision learning by self or with another friend (as in 2-way, 3-way or 4-way) -- and it's far easier to set expectations, not to be dissapointed....

In my humble opinion (I swear....I'm humble!) which will probably offend a few people (I'm good at that), it seems that sometimes skydivers getting frustrated in a tunnel has absolutely nothing to do with the coach/instructor. They're frustrated that they can't fly in the tunnel, so they blame something...anything...."The instructor didn't understand what I wanted," "The instructor isn't a skydiver, so they don't know what they're doing," "My shoelaces became untied." Generally, I arrange for a coach beforehand, but any time I've used the tunnel instructor for coaching, it's been a really great experience, and I learned a lot. For a skydiver to learn in a tunnel, they don't need to have specific coaches, they just need to check the ego at the door, prepare to be humbled by the dude with 10 jumps, and get ready to learn a whole heck of a lot! I don't use a scapegoat for my crappy flying. It speaks for itself!

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[mdrejhon 8]

You're likely right -- there are also those (very experienced!) skydivers that get frustrated no matter how good the tunnel coach is, regardless of whether the coach is a skydiver or not.

One thing I am really curious: That 17,000 jump freeflyer that was mentioned who broke his arms in the tunnel (I think by trying to freefly without relearning it for the tunnel first) -- did he/she give the tunnel a 'second chance' eventually?

Anyway, I CANNOT WAIT for Skyventure Montreal to finish construction. Got delayed till March 2009 but the construction is going well, humming right along, with the usual minor setbacks here and there. I'd like to get a monthly 4-way team up and running, doing 10 hours next year if possible... Good way to cut tunnel costs of a large portion of tunnel time. (Anyone near Montreal, PM me. I have one interested already, need two more willing to commit an hour a month and can fly 4-way at $200 for one hour. Where else can you do sixty skydives worth of freefall in one day for that price. And if you can't fly tunnel 4-way yet, I can get you in touch with Team Evolution who can coach you to that level).

[BDashe 0]

bottom line- the tunnel works. if you get good coaches and listen to em you be able to do sh*t that would take hundreds or thousands of skydives in just a few hours of tunnel time. you'll learn to fly with every part of your body, so eventually making the switch from tunnel to sky with a rig becomes increasingly negligible. Sure, there are a few differences but the more you fly the better you get, it is that simple.

So there I was...

Making friends and playing nice since 1983

[MB38 0]

i live 10 minutes from the Hollywood tunnel and about 90 minutes from Perris. As a result, I've been spending a lot more time in the tunnel lately than I have spent in the sky.

The hardest part for me in the tunnel was finding lift. I'm a tall/skinny guy and I'm used to jumping with normal freeflyers. As a result, my sitting position is fairly compressed when compared to a proper tunnel sit. Learning to fall slowly in the tunnel was eye opening and an interesting training experience... but it wasn't necessarily a skill that I needed for the sky. After struggling to get off the net in the tunnel, adding 2-3% to the speed made it just "click" for me - it suddenly felt like a skydive. Sure I had to use my back more as a result of not wearing a rig... it's a given... but it was working.

I didn't realize that it was actually having an impact on my skills until I returned to jumping after about 3 weeks off. The first jump I did that day was with a few very experienced guys I hadn't jumped with before. I've never received more compliments after a skydive - I was blushing all the way back to the packing area.

I think of the tunnel as a driving range for skydiving. Sure I can't practice my exits, tracking or canopy control... but I can focus on one part of my "game" in a very specific and controlled way.

With the gas I burn to get to the dropzone coupled with the increasing jump ticket price, I can get 3-4 minutes in the tunnel for the cost of one skydive. Add on the cost of a skydiving coach and it's ridiculous. While freefall coaching will exercise a different skill set in many ways, the tunnel coach has many more tools at his disposal... at least in my experience.

You'll suck the first time you get in the tunnel. Stick with it long enough to gain a few tunnel skills that are notably better than when you started. Then try it and the sky and see!

I really don't know what I'm talking about.

[ASTKU 1]

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i live 10 minutes from the Hollywood tunnel and about 90 minutes from Perris. As a result, I've been spending a lot more time in the tunnel lately than I have spent in the sky.

The hardest part for me in the tunnel was finding lift. I'm a tall/skinny guy and I'm used to jumping with normal freeflyers. As a result, my sitting position is fairly compressed when compared to a proper tunnel sit. Learning to fall slowly in the tunnel was eye opening and an interesting training experience... but it wasn't necessarily a skill that I needed for the sky. After struggling to get off the net in the tunnel, adding 2-3% to the speed made it just "click" for me - it suddenly felt like a skydive. Sure I had to use my back more as a result of not wearing a rig... it's a given... but it was working.

I didn't realize that it was actually having an impact on my skills until I returned to jumping after about 3 weeks off. The first jump I did that day was with a few very experienced guys I hadn't jumped with before. I've never received more compliments after a skydive - I was blushing all the way back to the packing area.

I think of the tunnel as a driving range for skydiving. Sure I can't practice my exits, tracking or canopy control... but I can focus on one part of my "game" in a very specific and controlled way.

With the gas I burn to get to the dropzone coupled with the increasing jump ticket price, I can get 3-4 minutes in the tunnel for the cost of one skydive. Add on the cost of a skydiving coach and it's ridiculous. While freefall coaching will exercise a different skill set in many ways, the tunnel coach has many more tools at his disposal... at least in my experience.

You'll suck the first time you get in the tunnel. Stick with it long enough to gain a few tunnel skills that are notably better than when you started. Then try it and the sky and see!

Thanks for the reply.

Let me ask your opinion on this:
I know I have to start on my belly in the tunnel and I want/need to get better at that. I also want to be great at backflying. How much time do you think I need or should spend in the tunnel (working on the above mentioned) before I start freeflying??

Second, I am also tall and skinny and have done some really decent group freeflying jumps. My speed seems to be fine when I jump with people that have experience and I can easily catch people in a stand. Why do they start you out in the tunnel at such a slow speed? Is it safer? Makes more sense to me to start it fast then learn to slow down. But then again Ive never been to one so I don't have much of a clue on the technicalities of it all....

BTW I am trying to save money (and sell stuff **anybody want a badass '67 mustang?**) to be able to afford/justify spending some money in the Tunnel!! So Ive basically made up my mind to give'er a try......

BlueSkies
-Adam

[mdrejhon 8]

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Why do they start you out in the tunnel at such a slow speed? Is it safer?

Yep, safety.

There is the danger that one can cork to the top of the tunnel and hit the cieling, if they just cranked the speed on just about anybody.

And if someone struggles to fall fast and starts to drift up, the danger is that one may panic and tumble, tumble, fall hard, and then hit the walls/trampoline hard enough to break bones. You pretty much need to be corkproof while flying 'in the tube', before they crank at high speeds -- corking is potentially more dangerous in a tunnel than in the sky.

People have broken bones in the tunnel before... There's a posting above that a 17,000 jump freeflier who presumably tried to skip a few training steps in the tunnel, broke bones. There's always a tunnel adaptation phase -- to be respected....

No fear -- it is pretty safe. Arguably safer than skydiving even, as long as the tunnel progression is properly followed. Patience for beginner freefliers! (Of which I'm one, being a bellyflyer guy myself)

Occasionally, it can be rather annoying to some new tunnelflyers who really want to liftoff ASAP for their dollar, but stay with it -- eventually the tunnel operator will trust you and the coach too. It may take more than an hour or two of tunnel time before you get liftoff, varies on the person and how much sky freefly experience you have as well...

With bellyfly you can get liftoff early on your first 2 minutes in the tunnel, but with freefly you may not be allowed to get liftoff for a long while (more than an hour of expensive tunnel time), but many say it pays dividends in the sky, even before you get liftoff. One argues learning freefly with one hour of tunnel time in one weekend, is probably more cost-effective than struggling doing 25 freefly solos (spread over 1 or 2 months because of weather and time) struggling trying to learn sitfly in skydives by yourself before someone finally trusts you to freefly 2-way with them, and you learn more -- even if you don't lift off the net. Then on your first coached freefly 2-way, you perform much better! So it's a matter of perspective. It's expensive, but think of the reduced time and number of skydives before you are invited to jump with freefly RW...

Well worth it. Try to spend at least half an hour at a time to get the maximum learning in, if the money is available. An hour is even better, but if you're financially tight, half an hour is often more than twice as much better than 15 minutes -- since you can punch beyond simply just doing tunnel adaptation. This would typically occur as two separate 15 minute periods (with 15 minute periods subdivided into 1-to-2-minute rotations with miniature debriefs in between), with good, longer debriefs before, between, and after.

[RossDagley 0]

I was recently on the UK head-down record. A friend of mine, Frazer Smith, a tunnel instructor from AirKix with 170 jumps was also on it.

I was only there for the big-way stuff - Frazer spent most of the time on sequential head down stuff.

He's a perfect example of how a bucket load of tunnel time can help.

[MB38 0]

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Thanks for the reply.

Let me ask your opinion on this:
I know I have to start on my belly in the tunnel and I want/need to get better at that. I also want to be great at backflying. How much time do you think I need or should spend in the tunnel (working on the above mentioned) before I start freeflying??

That's a good question... I'm sure a tunnel instructor would be more suited to answering this question. I can tell you that I have about 50 minutes of tunnel time and I'm signed off for front flips in a sit. I don't know if that's fast or slow... but that's just where I am in the tunnel at this point.

The biggest thing about the tunnel that I've found to be different/difficult is the precision and forethought required. You need to have complete understanding of your body position and the consequences of your movements.

Think about making an adjustment in the sky. I can try something, see its consequences and adjust my body position accordingly. There's time and space to deal with that. Lets say I'm transitioning to head-down on a two way. I cartwheel over but maybe over-rotate a bit. I side-slide, catch it and steer myself back in line to whoever I'm jumping with [having maybe orbited a few degrees in the process]. It's the sort of thing that I wouldn't really think about in the sky because I'd have that time and space to catch a misjudgment and reconfigure.

In the tunnel, there isn't room for stuff like that. If I try a transition [which I'm not yet, but I'll stick with the same example] and over-rotate a bit... I'm on the glass before I can react. The time available for the "crap, why am I moving in this direction?" thought is much more compressed.

As a result, I've found that tunnel flying is really helping me fine-tune things like this. I'm also learning new body positions in the "right" way. My sit is no longer the garbage I taught myself on jump 26. I'm getting better at making 6" corrections instead of 4' corrections... or 1MPH corrections instead of 10MPH. It's nice.

And besides... if you fly at the Hollywood tunnel you get a whuffo audience. What could beat that?

I really don't know what I'm talking about.

[Chrisky 0]

Hehe yeah I know Frazer. Was talking to him about his AFF and the thought of a guy with his tunnel time and corresponding flight skills with that huge student rig was just so funny.

The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open.
From the edge you just see more.
... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

[RossDagley 0]

We're doing some AFF next month with two guys both who are tunnel instructors for over 18 months. I'm hoping it's gonna be fun

[mdrejhon 8]

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We're doing some AFF next month with two guys both who are tunnel instructors for over 18 months. I'm hoping it's gonna be fun

This brings up a curiousity of mine:

How is AFF modified to adapt for tunnel rats who may actually end up bellyflying better than their AFFI instructors? I imagine more focus will be made on safety and lifesaving aspects such as altitude awareness and practice pulls, since it'd probably be easy for the tunnelflyer to do everything else? I imagine release can be very early (such as during AFF2)

[LloydDobbler 2]

Hey, Adam -

[DISCLAIMER - Not a tunnel instructor, nor a coach. I've got ~3-1/2 hrs of freefall time, and ~5 hrs of tunnel time at Perris, AZ, and my new home-away-from-DZ, SkyVenture CO.]

Couple of things:

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I am also tall and skinny and have done some really decent group freeflying jumps. My speed seems to be fine when I jump with people that have experience and I can easily catch people in a stand. Why do they start you out in the tunnel at such a slow speed? Is it safer? Makes more sense to me to start it fast then learn to slow down. But then again Ive never been to one so I don't have much of a clue on the technicalities of it all....

While Mark made some good points re: the tunnel, I think he's a little off on the 'hitting the top' part. Even if you cork, the air dissipates up towards the top of the tunnel (unless it's cranked up REALLY high), so it's a lot tougher to reach the top. The bigger danger lies in the walls that are surrounding you on all sides (and a lot closer than the ceiling).

Combine that with the fact that sitflying/freeflying is a lot like flying a high-performance canopy - it's a lot more responsive. The faster the airspeed, the less input is needed to achieve a result. So in the tunnel, if you lean a little too much back, or overcompensate to make a correction, you find yourself moving towards the glass at a high rate of speed.

In the sky, it doesn't look like much, especially in freeflying, because when you're starting out you don't have that many stable points of reference. But in the tunnel, every flaw is magnified thanks to the proximity.

That's the biggest reason why they keep it slow. So that when you're first getting the feel for it, and then start to get unstable and put your feet down to stand up (which you'll do, in spite of all the times they warn you), and the next thing you know you're crashing into the glass as they're turning down the airspeed and the tunnel instructor tries to get ahold of you before you break a bone or two - basically, they keep the speed low so that that experience will only bruise, instead of break you. (And teach you a lesson).

Think of it this way - VRW takes a LOT of time for someone to get good at, because it's precision work. The tunnel is like getting into VRW from moment one. Except the thing you're flying relative to has a lot less 'give' than a fleshy human body does when you careen into it in freefall.

(Spoken from experience - learned that one the hard way.)

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I know I have to start on my belly in the tunnel and I want/need to get better at that. I also want to be great at backflying. How much time do you think I need or should spend in the tunnel (working on the above mentioned) before I start freeflying??

Yep - like you're probably heard, you should be able to demonstrate proficiency on both your back and belly before switching over to sit. I know lots of people (myself included), though, who do a few rotations on their back, then move onto sitflying.

Bad idea. (Again, hard-earned experience talking). My advice to you (you can thank me later): Get to where you really feel comfortable on your back before moving to sitflying. If you don't feel like you're really in CONTROL on your back (which is harder than it looks), don't move on just yet. Here's why:

When you bail from a sit, your neutral position is your back. You want that to be a very comfortable place - otherwise, you can get a little tense while working on your sit for fear of 'losing it.' This dramatically steepens your learning curve.

After trying to sit that way for a while, I went and did 30 more minutes on my back. It made all the difference in the world. Now I'm a lot more confident making adjustments to my sit (like trying to get my arms in and fly fro mmy core so I can take grips, for instance). If something screws up, I go to my back, then try again. No longer a big deal. (Not to mention, I now LOVE flying on my back. SO much fun!) It just makes you a much more confident flyer - and with good reason, because you're a safer flyer when you can fly well on your back.

As for how much time to give it, it's different for each person. Suffice it to say, when you're comfortable on your back, can hang out in the middle of the tunnel on your back while maintaining heading/height, and can do stable turns without losing altitude, then you're definitely ready to move on. For a great drill, try having them turn up the air to sitfly speeds and fly on your back that way for a bit. That way, you'll know how little input you need to give when you bail from a sit. Again, it's all about confidence.

Don't rush it - sit will be there, and everything else you do will help make your tunnel sitflying learning curve much less steep. It's like skydiving - you learn something on every jump.

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BTW I am trying to save money (and sell stuff **anybody want a badass '67 mustang?**) to be able to afford/justify spending some money in the Tunnel!! So Ive basically made up my mind to give'er a try......

Good call. The tunnel will pay some serious dividends. You can count on that. (And like others have said, dollar for dollar, it's generally cheaper than skydiving, so that's a good way to rationalize it...).

Anyway, apologies for the long post - If I had more time, I would've written a shorter one, but it's the weekend. Let us know how the tunnel goes for ya.

Signatures are the new black.

[LloydDobbler 2]

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We're doing some AFF next month with two guys both who are tunnel instructors for over 18 months. I'm hoping it's gonna be fun

This brings up a curiousity of mine:

How is AFF modified to adapt for tunnel rats who may actually end up bellyflying better than their AFFI instructors? I imagine more focus will be made on safety and lifesaving aspects such as altitude awareness and practice pulls, since it'd probably be easy for the tunnelflyer to do everything else? I imagine release can be very early (such as during AFF2)

I've been doing some research on this, since there's a girl who flies 10 minutes in the tunnel each week with me, but who hasn't gone through AFF. Naturally, it all depends on the DZ.

For the most part, instructors seem to be pretty cool - especially if they know the student and their tunnel experience. Main thing is, the student still has to accomplish all of the freefall goals in sequence - stability Lvl 1, turns Lvl 2, release Lvl 3, etc (or however it works at your DZ). Difference is, if the DZ isn't determined to milk the student out of the cash for each level and the instructor is comfortable with it, they can combine some objectives on each jump. So Lvl 1 may include turns, or Lvl 4 could include both 90-degree and 360-degree turns. Provided the student stays altitude-aware, pulls on time, and flies their canopy safely, usually it's all good.

Like you said, though, the main thing to worry about is all the other things besides bodyflight. If someone's done a *lot* of tunnel time, their internal clock might already be set to 2 minutes, so altitude awareness will be CRUCIAL. Canopy flight as well, and all the EP's, spotting, etc. I'm not an AFFI, but that's what I hear from the ones I've discussed it with.

Signatures are the new black.

[MB38 0]

There's nothing like seeing a student snap a center-point turn on AFF3...

I really don't know what I'm talking about.

[LloydDobbler 2]

:-D Yep...I told this girl she has to get video, so the rest of us can see how it goes down. [:D]

Signatures are the new black.

[stormywinters 1]

I had about 20 jumps before starting in the tunnel, just under a 1000 now. I have been in the tunnels for 10 yrs, yet, not a big time skydiver. I think you are thinking of Carlos Euribe, who has about 80 jumps, but he is the perfect example. He did his ADA with under 100 jumps with Mike Swanson. He could do multiple cartwheels at one time, and stay in his slot.
I think there is no reason to do this poll, unless you say of course, how much tunnel time, how much of it is coached, and by who. I see how the wrong situation could cause tunnel time to hinder your skydiving performance. But no doubt that the tunnel can bring a lot of body awareness/muscle memory to the skydive, and in freefly this could be both positive and negative.
No matter what, we have to understand that we learn from our mistakes, and not be so afraid of making them. So I think you should mix training up, to consist of both sky and tunnel, and try to learn a bigger range of motion and a bigger range of fall rate. If you learn better in the sky, then train in the sky.

[Paige 0]

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Yep - like you're probably heard, you should be able to demonstrate proficiency on both your back and belly before switching over to sit. I know lots of people (myself included), though, who do a few rotations on their back, then move onto sitflying.

Bad idea. (Again, hard-earned experience talking). My advice to you (you can thank me later): Get to where you really feel comfortable on your back before moving to sitflying. If you don't feel like you're really in CONTROL on your back (which is harder than it looks), don't move on just yet.

Original Poster: Don't just jump into this on your own. Coaches are the fast track to good skills and confident skydivers/tunnel flyers! Esp. stormywinters, AMAZING is an understatement!

I wouldn't say that mixing it up with sit and back (when coach/instruct say it's safe) is always a bad idea. I know students of mine get frustrated with back or sit and move to the other to 'reset' their mental state with something they are confident in, or try something else for variety. Muscles get tired and fatigued, breaking it up by alternating with back and sit (again, done safely of course) can offer you a refreshed view of the position by letting your tired muscles recover a bit.

I know back flying is very relaxing for me but when I was learning to sit fly, the arms were so tired. So I'd switch from back to sit and found my progression to be just fine
(200+ hours of experience talking, but that's NOTHING these days). I did it with coaches and guidance however.

Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate
www.TunnelPinkMafia.com

[ASTKU 1]

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Original Poster: Don't just jump into this on your own. Coaches are the fast track to good skills and confident skydivers/tunnel flyers! Esp. stormywinters, AMAZING is an understatement!

I wouldn't say that mixing it up with sit and back (when coach/instruct say it's safe) is always a bad idea. I know students of mine get frustrated with back or sit and move to the other to 'reset' their mental state with something they are confident in, or try something else for variety. Muscles get tired and fatigued, breaking it up by alternating with back and sit (again, done safely of course) can offer you a refreshed view of the position by letting your tired muscles recover a bit.

I know back flying is very relaxing for me but when I was learning to sit fly, the arms were so tired. So I'd switch from back to sit and found my progression to be just fine
(200+ hours of experience talking, but that's NOTHING these days). I did it with coaches and guidance however.

Well.... I kinda feel stupid for starting this thread. I did just over 30 minutes of tunnel action for the first time a couple weeks ago and absolutely loved it. Although I haven't gotten to any freeflying yet I already know the answer to the question "does freeflying in tunnel help in the sky?"....THE ANSWER HAS GOT TO BE DUHHHHHH!!
I have done about 20 mins on my belly and 20 mins backflying and I learned so much. AWESOME, AWESOME....
I still like skydiving way better but this was a great tool to improve my skills and awareness of my own body....

Thanks for all the comments!

And special THANKS to RACKJR (Jason) who was my coach in the tunnel.