SkyPainter 0 #1 July 14, 2008 Dumb newbie question ..... does tunnel time count for logbook entries? I am on hold for the moment ( week or two) from beginning AFF training. In the meantime, I will be doing a bunch of wind tunnel sessions ... trying to maintain a heading, controlling altitude, doing 90s and 360s, etc. So ....I will put it in my logbook anyway, but should I count it at all in total freefall time? Or is it considered just practice? Either way, I will continue it during AFF training. Blue Sky, Safe Landings always - SkypainterLive deliberately; Dare greatly; Land gently SkyPainter SOS 1304, POPS 10695, DS 118 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skycat 0 #2 July 14, 2008 I have a separate log book for tunnel time. It doesn't count towards free fall time, but if you tell an instructor you have and hour in the tunnel, they know you are not going to be out of control on AFF 1, actually they may have to worry about you going into a sit. Fly it like you stole it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #3 July 14, 2008 Nowww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
labrys 0 #4 July 14, 2008 I write mine in my logbook. I do not enter it as freefall time because it isn't freefall time. I do consider it part of my overall skydiving experience and I like to have it documented. I also write interesting or unusual things that happen at the DZ in my logbook. It's not a legal document, it's mine to write in as I please Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #5 July 14, 2008 It's your logbook. Nobody cares what you do with it. But you can't count tunnel time to USPA freefall awards, licensing, or certifications. Only air time counts for those. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
micduran 0 #6 July 14, 2008 My logbook is as much a diary of my skydiving as it a log of jumps. I put funny comments in the jump description. I'll tape wrist bands from boogies in there. I've put stickers to remember some jumps. I've put the tunnel time only to make notes to myself to remember. It is your log book. Do with it what you want.Be patient with the faults of others; they have to be patient with yours. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mamajumps 0 #7 July 15, 2008 I write my tunnel time in the margins around the last jump entry. I see tunnel time as something that improves your skills overall as a skydiver and should be documented and kept up with. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpwally 0 #8 July 16, 2008 Thats right ! I knew a guy who kept everything in logbooks,,he had cost of tickets,gas,beer,food,funny stories,etc,,,,basically a log of the weekend.........smile, be nice, enjoy life FB # - 1083 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Katinka 0 #9 July 16, 2008 Great ideas on what to do with your logbook! It's your journal after all! From my own - limited/newbie - experience, I did some tunnel time between AFF4 & 5 and my instructor told me to enter it. Helps instructors know what's going on with you. And believe it or not, a year from now, you will need help remembering! Loved the idea of taping the boogie bands, I have mine taped on the inside of the bathroom mirror. Will be moving them into the logbook now! Thanks! Also, I have fun collecting signatures and phone numbers and funny drawings in mine. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bradStyle 0 #10 July 25, 2008 QuoteI do not enter it as freefall time because it isn't freefall time. Tunnel time IS freefall time. It is not outdoor freefall time, skydiving freefall time, or U.S.P.A. freefall time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
labrys 0 #11 July 25, 2008 QuoteTunnel time IS freefall time. It is not outdoor freefall time, skydiving freefall time, or U.S.P.A. freefall time. No, it's tunnel time. Freefall is freefall. In the tunnel there is a grate at the bottom and a fan at the top. In freefall there is a planet at the bottom and nothing at the top. Hitting the grate in the tunnel in your measure of freefall is annoying. Hitting the planet in actual freefall is fatal. If you think that you can compare the 2 then okay. I see a difference. Every action and reaction in "freefall" needs to take impact at terminal velocity into some measure of account. You can't "not pull" in the tunnel, sir. And your actions will reflect that fact. You can engage in shenanigans that won't kill you in the tunnel where they would kill you in the real sky. Nope, tunnel time is not freefall time. Never will be.Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bradStyle 0 #12 July 29, 2008 Gravity and physics function the same whether you are in the tunnel or in the sky. Certainly there are vast differences in the psychology, execution, and potential consequences of either. The sports are very different, yes, but if you are falling without touching anything, that's freefall (even if the U.S.P.A. won't let you log non-skydiving time). Freefall def. "The accelerated motion toward the center of the Earth of a body acted on by the Earth's gravitational attraction." There are further definitions that would say that true freefall has to be the force of gravity acting alone and skydiving is not even true freefall because of air resistance, but I don't think many people in this forum would agree. Don't worry, I ain't some tunnel rat trying to step on skydiver toes here. I'm just out representing the forces of nature. SUMMARY: Tunnel time does not go in a skydiving logbook. Tunnel flying is very different from freefall skydiving. Tunnel time is freefall time (as long as you aren't gettin' all slutty on the walls). QuoteIn the tunnel there is a grate at the bottom and a fan at the top. In freefall there is a planet at the bottom and nothing at the top. Thanks for clearing that up ;) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
labrys 0 #13 July 29, 2008 Quote Don't worry, I ain't some tunnel rat trying to step on skydiver toes here. I'm just out representing the forces of nature. And I'm not trying to step on any tunnel rat tails. I'm just sayin' that I think tunnel time is certainly flying in relative wind, but it ain't falling. There isn't any freefall without the falling part, IMO.Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bradStyle 0 #14 July 29, 2008 A further definition of freefall states, "If a falling body has an initial constant velocity in any direction, it retains that velocity if no other forces are present. If other forces are present, they may change the observed direction and rate of fall of the body, but they do not change the Earth's gravitational pull; therefore a body may still be thought of as freely falling even if the resultant observed motion is upward." But hey, I didn't write the language... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
labrys 0 #15 July 29, 2008 QuoteBut hey, I didn't write the language... It's all you, okay? I give. Tunnel time is freefall.Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VivaHeadDown 0 #16 July 29, 2008 Careful Brad, these guys don't like to get all serious and technical. They just want to share how they FEEL about an idea. Reason and logic have no place here. Don't Confuse Me With My Own Words Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mdrejhon 8 #17 July 29, 2008 I have started keeping track of tunnel time in a separate logbook. I think it's worthwhile to do so now, especially if you have more tunnel freefall time than sky freefall time. (freefall, schmeefall, it's the same thing as long as you're not touching the walls, grate, whatever. Semantics in the scientific definition, at university. But it's definitely not official skydiving freefall time that counts towards your skydiving license.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
low_pull1 2 #18 August 3, 2008 Its your logbook. I log skydives in my tunnel logbook. I also Log the Type and Quantity of beers I Consume in my logbook. You cant tell me what to log in this great country, Texas 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
keithbar 1 #19 August 14, 2008 you can put anything you want in your log book. but if you say tunnel time IS freefall time. I call bullshit. no way no how. your floating in a tube of high speed air. if you don;t see the VAST diff. in that and gravity pulling you towards a planet at a speed that WILL kill you. well then I can't help you. now can a tunnel make a vast diff in your your skydiving freefall skills HELL YEAH! but your much less likely to die gaining that exp. in a tunneli have on occasion been accused of pulling low . My response. Naw I wasn't low I'm just such a big guy I look closer than I really am . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bradStyle 0 #20 August 14, 2008 Quoteyour floating in a tube of high speed air. No, you're falling in a tube of high speed air. People can't float actually. If you were floating you'd smash through the ceiling at whatever the tunnel speed was and that would kill you just as quick as impact at terminal. Quoteif you don;t see the VAST diff. in that and gravity pulling you towards a planet at a speed that WILL kill you. well then I can't help you. No help needed. I already saw, and mentioned in one of my above posts that skydiving and tunnel flying are completely different, but skydiving doesn't hold the exclusive rights to the term freefall, and if you examine the definition of the word freefall, in terms of science and physics, it is clear that tunnel flying is freefall. Not the freefall that skydivers are familiar with, no, but freefall by definition- yes. It is all clearly spelled out in the above posts, but if you don't see fit to read them, then I can't help you ;) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Baksteen 84 #21 August 14, 2008 QuoteA further definition of freefall states, "If a falling body has an initial constant velocity in any direction, it retains that velocity if no other forces are present. If other forces are present, they may change the observed direction and rate of fall of the body, but they do not change the Earth's gravitational pull; therefore a body may still be thought of as freely falling even if the resultant observed motion is upward." But hey, I didn't write the language... By your interpretation of this defination I am freefalling when lying on the floor - my velocity is constant (0 m/s) and I will retain that velocity indefinitely. One might argue that other forces are present in this example, the floor 'supports' you and 'prevents' you from falling, thereby keeping your velocity constant. But this is the same in the tunnel - in a neutral arch, your downward velocity does not change because the air 'supports' you, pushing you up cancels out the force with which you are pulled down. ----- Completely aside from definitions, I do not think tunnel time should count to total skydiving freefall or vice versa simply because tunnel and skydiving are so different. There is a lot of carryover between skills, but while you have to compensate for level in the tunnel, there is only so far you can drift apart. Other things like altitude/time awareness etc. are focussed on differently too. Someone with ten hrs of tunnel time will pick up the FS/freefly/whatever bits of skydiving relatively quickly, but there are also 'foreign' skills needed to get there, i.e. tracking. Alternatively, someone with ten hrs. of freefall time might pick up tunnelling relatively quickly, but first he has to get used to having to stay in almost exactly the same spot to avoid the walls as well as the fact that in the air you can 'cheat' a lot more than in the tunnel (or so it seemed to me). Hence, if I go to a DZ claiming ten hrs of freefall time, that means people will assume certain things about my skills that I may not be able to live up to completely. Sure I might fly a decent slot in a bigway, but how about separation?"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bradStyle 0 #22 August 14, 2008 QuoteBy your interpretation of this defination I am freefalling when lying on the floor - my velocity is constant (0 m/s) and I will retain that velocity indefinitely. No. "If a FALLING body has an initial constant velocity, it retains that velocity..." If you're lying on the floor you're not falling. The floor isn't rushing past you like the wind in the tunnel. Just because someone can maintain their level in the tunnel doesn't mean they aren't falling, just as if you are skydiving at the same speed as your friend they do not appear to be falling (hint: you are!). In each of those cases the air is providing friction, but not support as a floor would. But beyond that I agree with everything you said. Too often here people are taking the word freefall as being synonymous with their subjective experience of skydiving and so of course they rightfully disagree about tunnel flying being freefall, but freefall is much broader than just skydiving, tunnel flying, B.A.S.E., cliff diving, bridge suicides, construction accidents, falling acorns, dropped cellphones etc. There are lots of possibilities. SUMMARY: * Tunnel time does not go in a skydiving logbook. * Tunnel flying is VERY different from skydiving. * Tunnel time is freefall time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyBoyd 0 #23 August 14, 2008 Freefall def. "The accelerated motion toward the center of the Earth of a body acted on by the Earth's gravitational attraction." On this definition, tunnel time is not freefall, as there is no "accelerated motion towards the center of the earth." Skydivers flying in wind tunnels are clearly not moving towards the center of the earth. But look, this argument is all semantics. If you want to believe that you are "falling" when you are in a wind tunnel, that's OK by me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VivaHeadDown 0 #24 August 15, 2008 what if someone bombs the net, then are they accellerating towards the center of the earth? Don't Confuse Me With My Own Words Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #25 August 15, 2008 Quote If you want to believe that you are "falling" when you are in a wind tunnel, that's OK by me. sorry, apparently in a forum, you are not allowed to just state a subjective opinion as your personal subjective opinion YOU MUST COMPLY (Of course, someone will now have to reply that 'their' opinion isn't subjective, but the only true real one......) ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
