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manliusguy

Do Not Go to Niagara Freefall and Interactive Center

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Do Not Go to Niagara Freefall and Interactive Center!
In Niagara Falls, Canada



Two friends and I booked 1 hour of freefall / skydiving time in the vertical wind tunnel. Instead of running our time all at once, we agreed to break it up into sessions so that other fliers could do shorter runs without having to wait. After 24 minutes we took a break and went to lunch. Because our instructor was such a nice guy, and we wanted to discuss what we would do in the following sessions, we invited him to join us. After getting permission from his boss, he agreed to come.

When we returned from lunch, we started to get ready for our next flight, but our instructor was not around. After finding him he told us that he was being sent home for the day because he took too long for his break (just over an hour). At this point, my friends and I felt AWFUL. We spoke to the owners, Atilla and Andrew Cserpes, and tried to convince them to reconsider their punishment because we were the ones that kept the instructor out. We even asked if they could simply allow him to finish up our session before going home. We gave the owners every opportunity to make the situation acceptable for everyone, but they told us that the instructor had to go home and THAT was the way it was going to be. Finally we had to leave, because introducing us to a new instructor would start us back to square one. Also, the situation had become very uncomfortable as they just left us sitting there for about an hour and a half. No refund for unused time was allowed so my friend lost about $600.

The owners of Niagara Freefall & Interactive Center (and neighboring Rainbow Motor Inn) managed to ruin an $1100 experience. Show them that this is not the way to treat employees or customers – Please do not give them your business.

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Well, theres always 2 sides to every story...

But if your side is accurate [:/] then WOW!
That is stunningly bad business.

I was PI**ED when I lost out on 4 minutes tunnel time at Bodyflight due to their manifest computer keeping crashing....

I would have gone through the roof at losing 40 minutes :|

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Do Not Go to Niagara Freefall and Interactive Center!
In Niagara Falls, Canada

Does anybody at Niagara Freefall Center have anything to say about this matter?

How are things run there -- do they have a timeslot scheduling system similiar to Skyventure's or is it more adhoc? If more adhoc, the owners probably got upset at the tunnel idling when no instructors were around (= loss of money for owners). That said, a procedure of "You must be back 15 minutes before your next slot" for instructor breaks, could have been done (somewhat similiar to what Skyventure does), to minimize problems.

If what I hear is right, the owners should have only deducted the late minutes, i.e. if the instructor was 5 minutes late, they should have agreed to just deduct 5 minutes from your tunnel time. Operators run the same profit, keep their tunnel schedule, keep good karma with customers like you, prevent bad word-of-mouth, you even admitted your mistake of making the instructor late, etc. (Even better, give you a 5 minute credit with another instructor) Customer should have been be priority: Send the instructor home after meeting the needs of customers. Pink sheets should not be timed to allow theft of customer money, unless it was a safety issue or something more major than a minor lateness.

You may wish to write to the newspaper and/or call the city's business department, and also point out the alternatives that would have been more profitable and ethical to them. Also explain that an instructor switch in the middle of training has a vast adverse effect.

You could even attempt to go through Small Claims Court, since this is big enough amount of money to make it worthwhile. (it's usually only a quick visit to a courtroom, no laywer, representing yourself, the time impact is similiar like contesting a dodgy speeding ticket, about an hour of your time) Google is your Friend. Spend an hour researching on how to file a grievance, make an appointment (which may be a month from now because of backlogs), spend an hour to show up (similiar to contesting a speeding ticket), and then you may get a full or partial refund out of it, given the circumstances. And if you are lazy, use a third party small claims service to help you (i.e. Ontario Process Services, or other services -- no affilation), which would cost you $75 or thereabouts and they'll pretty much do most of the rest for you. It's only a quick "speeding ticket league" court visit after all, and well established. Use the system that is in place, if you'd like! Also many sources tell you to contact the offending party in person or write a letter (personally addressed, by registered mail) to attempt to resolve this out-of-court.

And if what you said is true, I may have to reconsider giving them the benefit of doubt -- I was still willing to visit them despite previous controversies. And I spent 4 figures total in the last 12 months at wind tunnels.

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I have to say, I am not surprised at all to see this post.

It is no wonder that most of the people who did the initial training there are not only not working there, but have filed claims against the owners with the Labour board.

I have also heard very recently from some ex-employees that they were operating outside of the TSSA guidelines and it was just a matter of time until there is bound to be an injury.

You certainly have a very valid complaint and should share your experience with someone in the Niagara Falls city council or similar so that they may be made aware of how these actions are reflecting badly on the city.

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Finally we had to leave, because introducing us to a new instructor would start us back to square one. Also, the situation had become very uncomfortable as they just left us sitting there for about an hour and a half. No refund for unused time was allowed so my friend lost about $600.



Sucks that the instructor got sent home, but I don't understand why you had to leave. Why didn't you just try a different instructor? Sounds like you voluntarily gave up your time. I wouldn't expect a refund when you leave in the middle of the day. I think I'd prefer to deal with a new instructor than give up $600 for nothing.

Dave

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Sometimes when I've seen people let go it wasn't from one incident it was from a pattern of incidents. I'm not saying that applies here but I've seen it.

I was planning on taking a trip down to Niagara this summer to try out their tunnel but now I may just have to wait for the one to open in Montreal.

-Michael

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none of the ex-employees I am talking about were let go, they either never accepted the employment offer or they quit

the only pattern of incidents at this establishment is one of employees quitting because of how the owners treated them

Good idea about saving your money and waiting for Montreal, the only reason for a skydiver to make the trip to this area is to jump from a Twin Otter.

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I was PI**ED when I lost out on 4 minutes tunnel time at Bodyflight due to their manifest computer keeping crashing.... :|



When you say Bodyflight can you clarify where exactly as that tends to be a little vague seeing there is more than 1 tunnel with that name.

I do hope it was not us.... I know that myself and all the other managers that work here would compensate more than enough if its something "we cock up" so to speak,

As for Niagara i can't comment as i have never been there, but there are two sides to every story as someone has already mentioned and i wouldn't let some body telling or asking me not to go stop me, I would still go there and fly and would go on how I am treated as a customer.



Let the wind come.....
Dave..

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It is the goal of Niagara Freefall to offer our guests a safe and enjoyable flying experience. Our customer’s are always held in the highest regard and are treated with respect. We always welcome customer comments, both positive and negative, as this benefits us in bettering our quality of service to our guests.

Our attention was directed to the recent very critical and slanderous comments made below. As duly noted by others, there are two sides to every story and the circumstances as outlined below fall far from being truthful.

The group arrived for a 1 hour pre-booked reservation (not a coaching package), upon completing half of the reserved time they requested a lunch break which we agreed to, though being a busy holiday weekend they were advised that we would continue their session upon return wherever we could fit them into the next open time slot. Their Instructor requested that he take his 30 min break to eat with the group.

Unfortunately they did not return 1 hour later as described, nor did they return 1½ or even 2hrs later… it was 3 hours when they finally brought our Instructor back to work! Our Instructor informed us that after lunch he was asked by the customers to remarkably go on a sightseeing tour of the city and be their tour guide (not part of our Instructor's job duties).

The result of the Instructor being away from work for an additional 2 ½ hours on a busy holiday weekend resulted in major delays and rescheduling difficulties for nearly 50 other flyers and placed additional burden on the rest of the Instructors.
Upon returning to work the staff member was promptly sent home for the day. It was the staff members responsibility to ensure that he was back at work after the 30min break was over. The customer was never faulted in any way or penalized any tunnel time, they were informed that we would continue to accommodate them and allow them to finish their time with another Instructor (this was not a coaching package). The customer surprisingly opted not to fly… we attempted to further accommodate them by offering a credit for the unused time to use on another date.

We do not accept the accusation that we are at fault for ruining their experience considering every attempt was made to accommodate the customer to meet their needs and had to further deal with many upset flyers and staff as a result of the extensive delays caused by this situation.

Such slanderous and malicious comments and attacks on our business credibility and reputation are unwarranted and in very poor taste (and potentially libellous).
We are confident that everyone that visits Niagara Freefall will be served in a professional manner by a skilled well trained staff and will have an exciting memorable experience.

We sincerely apologize to the readers should we have offended anyone with our reply.
Niagara Freefall

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Hi y'all.

I just visited the Niagra Freefall website and I noticed that they have Instructors that can provide "one on one training by Certified Professional (CSPA) (USPA) Instructors to meet special skydiver's needs."
I'm wondering which Instructors hold certified USPA or CSPA Instructional ratings and if the tunnel training can apply to my logbook? And how do I contact the Instructors?

Secondly, they state that they employ "professional-trained instructors".
Who provides this type of training and who oversees it?

And also regarding their statement of "up to four experienced people to fly together in air speeds of up to 140mph".
Does this mean I can do a 4way?.. In my freefall suit?

And finally, this one in 980's post actually scared me... What does this mean?
"I have also heard very recently from some ex-employees that they were operating outside of the TSSA guidelines and it was just a matter of time until there is bound to be an injury."

Why are there so many "ex-employees"?
Operating "outside of TSSA guidelines"? Huh?
And wow, "just a matter of time until there is bound to be an injury."

Sorry for the odd post, it's my first one.

These statements and quotes have me feeling restless about me visiting their center.
I'd love to read your comments.

Thank y'all
Errol.

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This was our group’s first experience in a tunnel and that is how the reservation was booked. Without instructor training we would have broken our necks.

We did not choose to split up our flight time. We were told that we would do it in 5 minute intervals. This was great for us because it gave us a chance to rest and talk with the instructor about how we were doing. It also left the tunnel open for other groups to get in. This was not the problem.

We left for lunch at 3:30pm and returned before 5pm. No more than 1.5 hours. Perhaps it seemed longer because we left for lunch that late in the afternoon.

When we broke for lunch, there was nobody else at the tunnel. I will agree that when we returned there were a few small groups there, but nothing that couldn't be handled with the staff on hand (50 flyers is absurd). If it was that busy, what sense would it make to send the instructor home? Find some other way to punish him.

The instructor was a good kid and obviously a good worker. He was making sure that the big customers of the day were enjoying themselves and would want to return.

Niagara, I am offended by your reply. The sport of skydiving is based on camaraderie and enjoyment. I take comfort in knowing that it is only a matter of time before you have many posts from other disappointed customers.

Shame on you for treating your patrons and employees so poorly.

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This post is very typical Dropzone.com, you look like you have rolled up yr shirt sleeves and have come looking for an argument...

you have just registered as a new user and its yr first post asking for a lot of answers to questions that can potentially harm a business if not ans very carefully and correctly..... you could of asked them if they would like to have been loobed up first before you tried to mount them.. or indeed just sent a Pm to Niagra instead....

I do hope they dont feel they have to reply to justify yr post.


People our little Tunnel world is small enough lets not try and make it smaller.....

:)

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manliusguy. If you had a bad experiance there i am genuinely sorry for you.. you cant please all the people all the time.. and sometimes things all come to a point where people bang heads and nothing is going to help.... however if maybe you had contacted niagara privately you could of sorted out yr grieviences and at least not been out of pocket.

I also think that if somebody is going to bad mouth any company.... wether that company deserves it or not they should put a name and fill in there profile so we know whos saying it....

bit like skydiving m8 if its not on video it didnt happen..

blue skies to you all...and if its windy on the inside all the better for it.. ;)

Dave

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you could of asked them if they would like to have been loobed up first before you tried to mount them.. or indeed just sent a Pm to Niagra instead....
:)



loobed= lubed

Fixed it... baaa baaa
Leroy


..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio...

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Why give eyespy a hard time?

Why are you so quick to defend a business you know nothing about?

I will venture a guess that it is because you could not imagine what this business is run like. You live and work in England, you would not believe how things run in North America and this establisment specifically could not operate the way it does in the UK because of better labour laws and their enforcement and better health and safety regulations and their enforcement.

Let me answer some of eyespy's questions which Andrew conveniently ignored...

Quote

I just visited the Niagra Freefall website and I noticed that they have Instructors that can provide "one on one training by Certified Professional (CSPA) (USPA) Instructors to meet special skydiver's needs."
I'm wondering which Instructors hold certified USPA or CSPA Instructional ratings and if the tunnel training can apply to my logbook?



to the best of my knowledge only one person who underwent the initial training (given by experienced and qualified instructors from the U.S.) holds a USPA (or CSPA) instructional rating and he is very rarely at the tunnel


Quote

And how do I contact the Instructors?



try emailing the tunnel and asking them


Quote

Secondly, they state that they employ "professional-trained instructors".
Who provides this type of training and who oversees it?



as mentioned before an initial group of instructors were trained by very experienced and qualified instructors from a Fly-away tunnel in the U.S.

practically all of these quit (5 out of 7 who were on the approved operator list required by the TSSA)

apparently some more instructors were then trained by Andrew and Atilla (who themselves never underwent the initial training course)

I have heard the trend was to minimize training time and almost completely eliminate tunnel time from the training.

Who oversees it? are you kidding?


Quote

And also regarding their statement of "up to four experienced people to fly together in air speeds of up to 140mph".
Does this mean I can do a 4way?.. In my freefall suit?



I call bullshit on both counts. Show me 4 normal size people in that tunnel in freefly suits and I would be very impressed.

The tunnel is too small for 4-way and not powerful enough for most people to even be able to belly fly their freefly suits easily.


Quote

And finally, this one in 980's post actually scared me... What does this mean?
"I have also heard very recently from some ex-employees that they were operating outside of the TSSA guidelines and it was just a matter of time until there is bound to be an injury."



what it means is that you should be a qualified instructor to operate the tunnel and apparently they have had persons that are not qualified instructors operate the controls and this scared the qualified instructors that saw it


Quote

Why are there so many "ex-employees"?



I hear it is because they treat them badly.


Feel any better now?

If anyone needs lube here, it is the employees (and ex-employees) and customers.

Don't make the mistake of thinking this windtunnel has anything to do with skydiving or the skydiving community, it does not.

It is purely an overpriced carnival ride, like many others in Niagara Falls.

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I was PI**ED when I lost out on 4 minutes tunnel time at Bodyflight due to their manifest computer keeping crashing.... :|



When you say Bodyflight can you clarify where exactly as that tends to be a little vague seeing there is more than 1 tunnel with that name.

I do hope it was not us.... I know that myself and all the other managers that work here would compensate more than enough if its something "we cock up" so to speak,

As for Niagara i can't comment as i have never been there, but there are two sides to every story as someone has already mentioned and i wouldn't let some body telling or asking me not to go stop me, I would still go there and fly and would go on how I am treated as a customer.



Let the wind come.....
Dave..


Dave

its Bodyflight , Bedford...UK.

Not sure if thats your place or not.....but if it is, you guys should also make sure that the person whos name is on the manifest is the person who goes in the tunnel unless its team training all on the same session (sticker on helmet in secure flap or something)

At bodyflight the most recent time I was there I was put in a 50 minute rotation with 2 guys I didnt know.
I had bought 20 minutes...they had bought 15.

When my name came up on manifest several times in a row at the start this ****head started getting antsy and insisting it was his go and it was wrong.

I told the guy at the tunnel door and he shrugged.

We ended up rotating between three of us and I lost out my EXPENSIVE extra time due to this dick.

So my point is....bodyflight are slack when it comes to the manifest...
They should include that in the pre flight talk with flyers.
Well, xxx is in for YYY minutes and so on.

Sounds simple, but it would save a LOT of p*ss*d off people.

I know several people from my DZ who have lost time in this way and have been bad mouthing the place to others...
Which is how I found out they had also lost out due to Bodyflights slack organisation and lack of procedures for ensuring the right person is in the tunnel.

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I was PI**ED when I lost out on 4 minutes tunnel time at Bodyflight due to their manifest computer keeping crashing.




Ok first i just need to confirm this is Andrew, if so then i know where we are and can answer yr post.

Dave :)

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The result of the Instructor being away from work for an additional 2 ½ hours on a busy holiday weekend resulted in major delays and rescheduling difficulties for nearly 50 other flyers and placed additional burden on the rest of the Instructors.



I seriously doubt that. That seems highly exaggerated.
My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

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Threads like this one always stagger me...

Can I ask if this was something that you asked to rectify at the time you left the tunnel? If so I would like to address how an error like this was not looked into.

I do take a little umbridge to the generalisation that we take our manifest operation slackly. This is grossly inaccurate and I can count on one hand the number of time issues we have in operation.

Either the manifest was crashing or some other guy jumped in your go? which was it?

Bottom line is I think majority of dropzone.com users that have visited us know that if you had an issue while at Boyflight - you would have it addressed with courtesy and enthusiasm should you raise it with us.

If you want to discuss this issue with me I will gladly look into the details with you!

Kind regards

Paul

Bodyflight Bedford
www.bodyflight.co.uk

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***

Quote

............

If you want to discuss this issue with me I will gladly look into the details with you!

Kind regards

Paul



Yes, Sorry Paul. Had a long day before posting that reply so it comes over a little more 'ranting' than I intended....If I could edit the post (water it down) a bit I would but it seems there is a 'maximum edit time' limit in place on DZ.com

I really like Bodyflight, and the setup, tunnel and the people there are great....

Indeed, you guys have gone out of your way to be helpful in the past and provide a truly professional setup.

However my complaint about the manifest still stands :P
not that it is a bad system, far from it and if everyone paid attention and did as they were meant to, then it would be excellent.

However the scenario I mentioned was not a manifest mistake but a customer one.
eg// the guy pushed in.

Not mine but one of the guys in my rotation.. He was VERY insistent that it should be his go next as I had just gone 2 minutes earlier.My name was on manifest and he 'thought' that all three of us were sharing the hour (iirc) of tunnel time

In reality I had bought more time than them.

An example of the manifest that day iirc..

Me
Guy1
Me
Guy1
Guy2
Me
Guy2
Me
Guy1
Guy2

I flagged it up to the spotter on the door and he shrugged....as you know its pretty hard to make stuff out in there so I cant be sure he knew what I was saying.

My only other option was to get nasty with the guy and physically chuck him out of the way ;)

I refrained..

At the end of the session the guy who had been coaching knew someone had got extra time but mistakenly added an extra session on for each of them at the end of the session....

It could have been easily avoided if

1/ The guy hadnt pushed in
2/Spotters made sure the right person was going on at the right time. (Im not entirely sure of the best way for this

After the session the guy apologised and explained what he was thinking at the time, and we agreed to 'resolve it' between ourselves at some 'future' date that may or may not happen!

I knew there was no point in bringing it to staff attention because it would have been down as 'my fault' for not following the manifest.[:/]


Hence I was a bit gutted about losing the time

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