Wind Tunnels "saving the sport"?

[psipike02 0]

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I am not sure why you would judge these kids like that? Have you met them? None of us knows what they will actually be like when they turn 18. What I can tell you is that they are extremely different... My daughter's style is completely opposite of my son's. It is really hard to generalize something like this, especially without relaly getting to know these kids. Every tunnel flyer and skydiver has a different personality which may or may not show up in their overall skillset. I think that teaching these kids all of the dangers of the sport and making sure that they understand those dangers will go a long way in keeping them safe. They sure do have excellent role models (both skydivers and tunnel flyers) at SVCO, and that will go a long way in making me feel comfortable with what will happen if/when they actually jump from an airplane!

I've refused to jump in at this point because it wasn't too bad of a conversation until, like Tunnelmom said, people started generalizing.

1. Don't put unfair rationalizations and generalizations on these kids who have tunnel time and can fly HD and do all this other. They are kids....you are picking on children. Does saying "what will their impact on the ground be" make you feel like a better person or skydiver?

2. 95% of the people who post on these boards probably haven't worked with some of these kids. I interact with the kids in kid's league here in CO AND Tunnelmom's kids on a weekly, if not almost daily basis. You have not met them and therefore can't say shit about them. As Hooknswoop posted MUCH earlier in a different thread, THESE KIDS LISTEN FAR BETTER AND WORK MUCH HARDER than most skydivers I know personally and have come across.

With some of the attitudes on this board, I wouldn't want Justin or Kayla flying with any of you. That's the problem with the sport. People make judgements about shit they have no fucking clue about and its starting to piss me the fuck off.

If ANYONE has anything negative to say about these kids or how they will be when they turn 18, keep it to yourself or you can bring it to me.

At SVCO, ALL the kids (including tunnelmom's) have an interest in going further in the sport. They have met great skydivers who have had a positive impact on them and they watch the tunnel staff (who the majority are skydivers/instructors) and I think they do look up to us for guidance and such...

The last thing we should be doing is tearing down other people, kids or anyone else. Support them or honestly shut up.

I'm sorry but I'm just sick of people bashing these kids for no reasons when they don't even know them or their personalities. They're just JEALOUS (yes i said it....JEALOUS) because these kids are great tunnel flyers and have the ability to become great skydivers.

You will have a problem with me if I hear these kids getting bad-mouthed, but in essence I hope it makes your skydiving egos feel better about bashing 11 year olds.

They aren't claiming to know everything about skydiving or anything at all, unlike some people I know on these boards. They are kids. Period.

Either cheer them on and support them and come fly with them if you have a chance, or don't say anything at all.

Puttin' some stank on it.

----Hellfish #707----

[Jewels 0]

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Yeah...they will most likely be shit hot freefallers without any idea how to get to the ground safely. Their freefall skills will be more in line with someone with thousands of jumps. Then, they will feel pressured to jump higher performance canopies performing more radical maneuvers. But, their canopy skills will be short. Impact on the sport...more likely question would be what will be their impact with the ground.

I think that makes a lot of unfair assumptions. I'm not a "hot freefaller" but having a lot of tunnel time allows me to worry less about the freefall portion of the dive, which is the bigger sensory overload part (unless something goes wrong under canopy), and to concentrate on the more significant risks--time to pull, what I do under canopy, how to land, that sort of thing. I only have three AFF jumps. I think I'm able to focus more on the "real" issues I need to be aware of because I don't worry so much about the freefall issues. Plus, I'm around skydivers all the time because I'm at the tunnel and it's like an extension of the dz.

I may have a more cautious personality when it comes to this stuff, but I think I have a better idea about what's going on in a dive than some of the people I know who have their A licenses. I don't know it all; the point is, I *know* that I don't know things.

I also can't comment about people wanting to downsize any sooner than other jumpers, but I hear a lot of people talking about wanting a canopy course as soon as they're ready for it--which I think is a good thing.

I'm hopeful that this means it'll have a positive impact on the sport. Sure, the wrong person could make a little experience into a dangerous thing, but I think on the whole that it's helpful.

TPM Sister #102

[rehmwa 2]

Look, a tough guy

(If we lived in Denver, I'd be pleased for you to coach my kid)


(despite the posturing, way to go defending these kids. Like all skydivers, they'll grow up and be cool, or assholes, or cocky, or nice, or whatever,... we just have to take them one at a time and do our best by them once/if they show up at their first jump class at the DZ. I suspect the tunnel stuff will be a minor input to their personalities no more than any organized sport or discipline would be.

IMHO and "Generally", I think organized activities and disciplined sports makes kids BETTER students. Not worse.

IMHO - I also think the cocky preemie canopy pilot wannabees would turn out that way regardless of their freefall skills - that's based on direct observation - in fact, I see a lot MORE 'potential canopy crashers' come from a deficit of freefall skill than high skill - maybe they feel they are trying to make up for something. Conversely, it seems the responsible canopy pilots tend to also excel in at least one if not more freefall disciplines.)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[psipike02 0]

Hahah

And thanks for the comment....that means alot...not an instructor yet but working my way up and hopefully soon, so once you get a chance to visit, maybe i'll be at that point...

I know I came on strong, but I pick on and treat these kids as if they're in my own family....and when someone has a problem or says something negative about my friends (who are nothing more than extended family to me)....it doesn't go over well with me.

I agree with Rehmwa 1000% as well too....so not trying to play the tough guy role but trying to be real and let people know how I felt about it and how ridiculous some of the talk was....

Puttin' some stank on it.

----Hellfish #707----

[skreamer 1]

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I also think the cocky preemie canopy pilot wannabees would turn out that way regardless of their freefall skills

I agree, people who were good students in one discipline such as FS can often master a new discipline quite quickly because they are open to instruction and can listen (and PEDAL!). I don't see why it should be any different if that discipline is tunnel flying and it happens to be a couple years before they are old enough to start skydiving.

Selfishly I think it is great because what I care about most after safety is improving my skills. If some kid can come up to me after a tunnel session and say 'Old fella, the reason you can't do outfaced carving is because you aren't keeping your hips bent, you are trying to fly with your arms and your legs aren't strong' - man that would be great! And if I can help that kid with some skydiving tips (not spotting! ) that would be cool too.

[hukturn 0]

In actuallity, I am not out to judge them. Everyone gets a fair and equal shot. But, reflecting on "tunnel rats" who I have known in the past, the tendency is very real. The likelihood of someone actually developing their freefall skills to a high point then taking on a more docile canopy is rare. In fact, probably even more so with males in the sport. Role models will be the key. But, just like parents, you must let go at some point. So, then who are they exposed to? Well, with high end freefall skills, they are exposed to the high end skydives. Now, measure the number of people on high end skydives who are wing loading at 1:1. Not many, huh?!? Now, of those who are loading higher than 1:1,how many are participating in high performance landings? While unmeasured, I tend to say 75%. So, now they are on the cool skydives, now they are "keeping up with the Jones'" and all the while trying to be cool. Yep, guess what, males 20-30 want to be cool. What is cool in our sport these days? You guessed it...swooping.
Put it into proportion...how many skydivers know how to effectively spot these days? Few. While just an example, it is indicative of our lack of promoting serious aspects of our sport in lieu of promoting the fun aspect. To some degree, we have lost perspective.
I hope these kids do not get themselves into any trouble. But, I also think that tunnels can cause a disproportionate advancement which can lead to problems. JMHO.

[hukturn 0]

"No" I will say it as I wish.
"Yes" I would be fine with "bringing it to you"
"No" your position is not more valid than ayone elses on this board

Whether or not you realize it, you are just taking the opposing position. It is not personal, it is debate. So, lose the personalization and lets get on with the discussion.

Like it or not, the tendency is real. It is not bashing them, it is raising a point. Whether you realize it or not (and with your reported 55 jumps in 3 years, I doubt it), the sport has evolved. I hope they go on to do great things. If anyone believes that young men have no egos...wake up. If people believe egos do not correspond to high performance canopy accidents, wake up. All I am trying to say is that people need to maintain balance between their freefall abilities andtheir canopy piloting skills. A great example is my wife. A helluva big way skydiver and a competent canopy pilot. But, her freefall abilities progressed (with no tunnel time) much more rapidly that her canopy skills. At 100 jumps, she did the Jevelin 100 way. With only 500 jumps, she did the Women's world Record in 1999. But, her canopy skills were disproportionate. She was not unsafe, but put a 21 year old boy in that same position. Think he will be conservative? I do not mean to pick, but, let's find some references... Charlie Mullins? How was he wing loading at age 18? A realatively good pilot, but ego driven at such a young age.

[Tidlof 0]

I think it's a fascinating question; will tunnels help or hurt skydiving? Looking back on my 39 years of participation in skydiving evolution, I should have a strong opinion of where this tunnel phenomenon will take the sport. But I don't. It’s so wild, it could go anywhere. It will probably morph the sport into ways I can’t imagine without cramping my brain. A few random thoughts drift thru my fragile egg shell mind:

• Obviously, it will raise the skills bar to incredible heights in a very short time.
• That in turn, should elevate skydiving’s image amongst the new extreme sports.
• But raising the bar so high may discourage some jumpers who would normally plod along slowly learning the basics and being happy to just jump.
• At the same time it will attract tunnelheads who say, “let’s add a plane ride, a parachute ride and the adrenaline rush of the fear of death to the mix.”
• And for old bellyflyers like myself, they will realize a whole new challenge that would have never been attempted without the benefit of tunnel training.
• The general public’s idea of a tunnel experience may quickly be divorced from skydiving.
• It could be a passing fad and someday be the new “bowling”. It would return to being simply a training tool at dropzones, since skydivers are already the minority of the tunnel market. Perceptions change: ten years ago, I would never have predicted a decline in skysurfing.

Good/bad for the skydiving? It’s both.

Ted
D6691 SCR 3975 SCS 2242 NSCR 698
On the road to wrack and ruin…………
but making damn good time.

[NeedToJump 0]

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In actuallity, I am not out to judge them. Everyone gets a fair and equal shot. But, reflecting on "tunnel rats" who I have known in the past, the tendency is very real.

We must know very different tunnel rats then.

I understand and follow your logic, but I disagree with it. I've been very heavily involved in tunnels for close to 5 years now and I know a lot of people who became tunnel rats with zero or very few jumps. A lot of them have gone on to become fantastic skydivers and very few of them have tried to downsize too quickly. Most of them are very conservative canopy pilots.

Again, I personally think that the attitude that causes people to downsize too quickly and not listen to people telling them to slow down has absolutely nothing to do with tunnel time and everything to do with the person him or herself.

Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

[hukturn 0]

Thank you for at least trying to see my point. I am not asking anyone to adopt it, but it is not entirely invalid.
Maybe we do know different people. And, I will admit that the tunnel rats themselves have changed. They were more of a counter culture ten years ago. Whereas, tunnelling has become a training ground these days.
I do not believe thet the tunnel time itself causes people to downsize too quickly. I do believe that it can cause an inaccurate perception of ones abilities. That, in turn, can transecend into other aspects of our lives. When combined with peer pressures (a very valid part of young people lives) the tendency is increased for foolish decisions. Just because a kid can win at his Nintendo race car game does not mean he can drive an indy car safely. A wind tunnel is a simulator and lacks some integral aspects of the sport of skydiving.

[psipike02 0]

Then why haven't you done so?

I'll take this to a PM and save everyone else the trouble of reading more bullshit...

Puttin' some stank on it.

----Hellfish #707----

[hparrish 0]

I think Tunnels can rejuvinate skydiveing for sure. It has for me.........the precision required to freefly in the tunnel can do nothing but improve my freefall skills outside the tunnel.

Any skydiver who thinks they have done all they can in the sky, should go to the tunnel and see just how much more they have to learn.

I literally saw some world class Freeflyers who were part of the last 53 way world record, not flying so well in the tunnel. I see top VRW teams using it to perfect their performance.

It has completely reinvigorated my desire to train and to challenge myself with different skills that I have not even thought to try in the past.

I could kiss Tim D for building my newest favorite toy, although I'm sure he will keep his distance from me now........

I think tunnels will revolutionize the sport of skydiving for those who are not close minded to a different discipline and a different tool for learning.

Oh and on the topic of KIDs in the Tunnel. I think it's absolutely awesome that I can be completely humbled by kids that are 3, 6, 7, 9, and 11. Wish I had that opportunity at that age. The kids at Paraclete are just phenominally awesome. They are surrounded by the top Tunnel Coaches and Skydivers in the world. And I think they will become extremely well trained and informed skydivers, when they are of age. Yes they will need to learn additional skills, but they will be very well prepared to do so.

Later,

[Kimblair13 0]

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Just because a kid can win at his Nintendo race car game does not mean he can drive an indy car safely. A wind tunnel is a simulator and lacks some integral aspects of the sport of skydiving.

IMHO that's not a very reasonable analogy...I smell bitter jealousness.

[leroydb 0]

ALSO, I was wondering when I could asked to be adopted.....

Leroy


..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio...

[riddler 0]

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While the sport is still relatively cheap

This author is definitely not a skydiver

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Though Danny can't legally jump from a plane for 11 more years, the skydiving industry is counting on kindergartners like him to help rejuvenate the sport.

Now, all we gotta do is wait 11 more years To hear the USPA and DZOs tell it, skydiving won't last that long.

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[psipike02 0]

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Just because a kid can win at his Nintendo race car game does not mean he can drive an indy car safely. A wind tunnel is a simulator and lacks some integral aspects of the sport of skydiving.

IMHO that's not a very reasonable analogy...I smell bitter jealousness.

Hmmm....amazing how I'm not the only one who saw that.

I thought it was a pretty horrible analogy too, but I let it go...

Funny how others keep proving my point.

Puttin' some stank on it.

----Hellfish #707----

[NeedToJump 0]

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Just because a kid can win at his Nintendo race car game does not mean he can drive an indy car safely. A wind tunnel is a simulator and lacks some integral aspects of the sport of skydiving.

IMHO that's not a very reasonable analogy...I smell bitter jealousness.

I don't think it's the best analogy, but it still works from the standpoint of the simulator eliminates certain safety concerns which must be considered when doing the real activity. I think that's the point he was trying to make.

As I've said, I don't agree with his views based on my experiences over the past few years but the logic still makes sense. I think there are enough good, safety minded people working with the tunnel rats when they start jumping that they don't feel pressured into downsizing too quickly and doing things that aren't safe.

Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

[tunnelmom 0]

From watching people in the tunnel there are dangers within the tunnel that are just different from in the sky. The walls and confined space make it so that every movement has to be very precise so that you don't injure yourself by slamming into the walls. Skydivers who can do certain things in the sky come into the tunnel all of the time and can't perform the same skills in the tunnel due to the space confinements walls etc. Again, I really don't think that it is fair to say that "they will have no idea how to get to the ground safely" or to compare this to a video game. I do understand the reason why you are trying to make an analogy, but I also completely disagree with the analogy. They are in the tunnel and they are practicing the same way the teams who jump from planes (and come train in wind tunnel) practice, simulated or not. All of the other skills will have to come later (canopy, exiting, altitude awareness, getting over their fear of jumping etc etc etc), but the freefall portion while "simulated" is actually being performed by them in this situation not being manipulated in a video game.
IMHO... There is a big difference.

[Bodyflight.Net 0]

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I do not believe thet the tunnel time itself causes people to downsize too quickly. ......... When combined with peer pressures (a very valid part of young people lives) the tendency is increased for foolish decisions.

Once edited, I do agree with the above statement.

My experience on this topic is that almost all tunnel flyers I know fly larger canopies. However, the few that do not, have been busy hanging around with skydivers full time, and have even become competitive jumpers.

I think that canopy choice has more to do with who your hanging out with than anything. If you make friends with hot shot canopy pilots who are always pushing the limits, the pressure will likely be on.

If your making friend with top notch canopy pilots or even instructors, it's likely they will pressure you to stay under a canopy that is most appropriate for you, regardless of size.

Scott tried to get me to downsize to a 170 on my last 15 jumps or so.. but I still wasn't ready IMO. I'm not looking for a faster canopy flight, I'm looking for safe & easy so I can fly again tomorrow; in the tunnel or the sky. Not to mention I personally subscribe to the idea that "I've paid for said jump, and therefore I will make the time I have with my feet off the ground last as long as possible"

My daughter has been flying in tunnels since age 3. Obviously our objectives are very different from most on the skydiving track, but still she plans to make a jump or two for the novelty of it later in life. Will she become a skydiver, I doubt it, but you never know. Regardless... her personality is conservative, and I believe her canopy piloting wouldn't be any different.

[Zenister 0]

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or.. they might actually downsize slower while still allowing them to exersise their freefall abilities.

i think you'd be quite amazed at the difference between freeflying with no rig and freeflying with 2 200sq+ parachutes on your back..

I'll wager the size of student and beginner rigs will heavily increase the 'frustration factor' of someone who has trained to 'tunnel rat' level of flying prior to skydiving at all, possibly increasing the pressure and desire to downsize, particularly if the size of their gear prevents them from flying with the 'more experience SKYDIVERS' that are their peers in the tunnel.

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Altitude awareness

will also be a serious factor.. skydivers develop their own internal clocks, clocks that can be dangerous as you transition from one 'slower' discipline to a 'faster' one... it happens at all levels even those with 1000s of skydives who 'forget' they got out at 8k this time... (search for incidents if you doubt)

take that factor and imagine what happens to someone with 100s of HOURS in a tunnel in longer and longer increments (5-15 min even) as their skills increased and add the planet coming at you in the next 60 seconds..(...but i'm only 1/3 of the way thru my 'routine'..hmm maybe i can get 2 more cartwheels in...).

Situational Awareness is a critical skill for many aspects of skydiving the tunnel does very little to help train it.

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[low_pull1 2]

saving the sport???? save it from who? save it from what?

skydiving will be around as long as there are airplanes!

yes, there may be a decline in the sport? but who does it affect? The not for profit USPA that needs the member dollars??

There may possibly be a decline in Skydivers here in the US. but world wide, id guess there has been an increase??

There is not a tunnel on earth that will save skydiving( since there is nothing to save it from). If anything, the tunnel will decrease the number of skydives (from experienced jumpers).

just my opinion

[Jewels 0]

Yes, there are other factors to adjust for when jumping as opposed to flying in the tunnel. Being altitude aware is one of the important ones. Having a student rig on feels a little different but I don't expect the learning curve to be that great to adjust to wearing it when freeflying. A rig certainly hasn't been a hinderance on my belly. I can't imagine that I will have to start all over to learn to fly again just because there's a rig in place. I don't minimize the fact that there are considerations in the air that you don't have in the tunnel. Just as with any other skydiver, there will be some people who "forget" how much time they have before it's time to pull. I just can't buy the argument that tunnel rats are inherently more aggressive and dangerous under canopy. Every new student needs to learn situational awareness. That's not unique to students who are used to the tunnel. That awareness can and should come with instruction, coaching and training, no matter whether the student has tunnel time or not.

TPM Sister #102

[Andy9o8 0]

If you read this forum enough, you'll come to two conclusions:
1. Tunnels will be the salvation of the sport.
2. Tunnels will be the demise of the sport.

Glad we cleared up that little mystery.
Moving along.

[hparrish 0]

Actually........I think this thread got completely off topic, and started focusing on the comments made about the kids.

[mdrejhon 8]

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While the sport is still relatively cheap

This author is definitely not a skydiver

I can actually see it in a different light - at the moment, skydiving is 'relatively' cheap -- in not many hobbies you can pay for an actual airplane flight for less than $25 (and plus, get some thrills). I do fear that in 50 years from now, skydiving is going to be far more expensive than it is today, while windtunnels could be far cheaper to operate in 50 years than it is today....

Either way, I'm pretty happy I can now do 4-ways in the tunnel. This dramatically cuts the costs of my tunnel time

FWIW on the topic of "saving the sport", I perceive a small surge in Canadian skydiver skills due to the stronger Canadian dollar as well as the recent emergence of a windtunnel within 5 hour drive of the Canadian border (Skyventure New Hampshire). The CDN dollar recently became more valuable than the U.S. dollar by a little and is now maintaining rough parity, and many of us Canadians taking advantage of the lower U.S. dollar to jump cheaper. In Canada, we pay $35 for Twin Otter jumps but we can do so at $20 (either USD or CAD) the states....