What if the power grid fails?

[Lokhmaty 0]

I've been told by the people at AAC (Appalachian Amuzement Center) L1 tunnel that it will gently bring you down if power grid failure. They did not show me how this will actually look like, but I have no reason not to trust them.

[diablopilot 2]

With your immense wealth of experience, you sure have proven that you have an opinion.


Now try to have a personality too.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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With your immense wealth of experience, you sure have proven that you have an opinion.


Now try to have a personality too.

This is really getting silly.

JP you are wrong. You have stopped addressing the issue and sound like a little kid.

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The "pull-back" of the stick causes the power to the motors to be reduced gradually, not all at once like in a power failure.

Wrong. Again, after discussing this with the designer and builder of the control system, this is not how the system works. You are wrong.

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In the SVCO tunnel, a flight test of the e-stop (which also reduces the power gradually

Again, you are wrong. The E-stop does not reduce the power gradually.

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To simulate a power out situation worst case scenario, you could open the RAT doors fully, then while someone is flying have all 4 VFD's shut off simultaneously.

Again, you are wrong. We do not fly in the tunnel with the louver doors open 100%. The E-stop effectively simulates a power outage.

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The danger and potential major injuries are far more likely to occur at higher flying speeds, higher flying altitudes, and during transitions. Someone doing a back flip or sitflying over 10 feet during an outage is very likely to be hurt.

Again, you are wrong. At sit-fly speeds, during a power failure, the wind speed will slow down slow enough that the flyer will have plenty of time to transition to either their belly or back and fly to the net. One of our instructors will do 3 or 4 back loops, after the throttle has been brought to zero, which will, again, slow the wind faster than a power outage.

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The "braking" system is electronic in nature, and serve to slow the fan/motor by reducing the power provided to it gradually.

Again, you are wrong, that is not how the system works. The fans are slowed faster with the throttle being reduced to zero than they would be during a power outage.

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It is in that respect that an "e-stop" or "throttle chop" as signifcantly different in outcome than a power outage.

Nope they are almost identical, with the e-stop resulting in a slightly quicker wind speed reduction. The difference is not significant.

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Knowing the systems as I do, neither the e-stop, or pulling the stick back to zero simulate a power outage.

Clearly you do not know the systems as well as you think you do, as I have shown that you are completely wrong as to how they function. Awfully arrogant statement, especially after I have shown that your knowledge of the systems isn’t nearly what you think it is.

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Having been an instructor and a flyer during power failures in tunnels I can say when the power stops, so does flight. Immediately.

That’s funny, since I am able to fly up to the turn fans, back down to the net, stop, and then back out the door with the throttle at zero, which, again, means the winds speed is stopping a lot faster than it would during a power outage.

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Occupation: Skydiving Instructor/Cameraman - Wind Tunnel Instructor

Which tunnel do you work at, or is your profile not updated?

Derek

[RackJR 0]

so i guess your argument is over, and the only thing left to do is try to salvage your ego by insulting me? when you get back to colorado we can discuss that in much greater length. i will look forward very much to that discussion.
until then, please, keep educating the world with your opinions. it gives the rest of us something to prove wrong.
how'd it go at SVNH?

Say what you mean. Do what you say.

[riddler 0]

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I've already stated the risks are minimal, though the fact you've bought into the "tunnel flying is safer than skydiving" myth is concerning.

This may be a topic for a different thread, but do you believe that tunnel flying is as dangerous as skydiving?

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[diablopilot 2]

I believe it to be more dangerous for most skydivers.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Hooknswoop 19]

What, no comment on my post? Avoiding the issue?

Derek

[RackJR 0]

I believe it to be more dangerous for most skydivers.
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ok JP, tell us all why. is it because of the vast number of fatalities that come from tunnels? or maybe the even bigger number of injury reports? Should we contact Parachutist and ask if we can start a new column there, "Tunnel Incident Report"?

Show us all the stats you're basing that statement upon. I know of one (1) tunnel flier that was seriously injured, happened in Perris and he's in a wheelchair, i believe for the rest of his life. Come on, rattle off some other serious injuries. tell us all exactly why tunnels are more dangerous. Or maybe you need to read your own signature.

Say what you mean. Do what you say.

[diablopilot 2]

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What, no comment on my post? Avoiding the issue?

Derek

No, mainly I have tired of this argument. I have stated my opinion, as based off facts I have personally witnessed, or experienced. I have relayed practical knowledge I have experienced. In response both you and Jason have relayed anticdotal, and second hand evidence.

Believe what you will, readers can believe what they wish, I really have no stake in this.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[RackJR 0]

edit for spelling jp

Say what you mean. Do what you say.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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No, mainly I have tired of this argument. I have stated my opinion, as based off facts I have personally witnessed, or experienced. I have relayed practical knowledge I have experienced. I response both you and Jason have relayed antidotal, and second hand evidence.

Believe what you will, readers can believe what they wish, I really have no stake in this.

And I have shown that you don't know what you are talking about. You think you know how the tunnel operates, but you are clearly wrong.

Derek

[diablopilot 2]

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I believe it to be more dangerous for most skydivers.
***

ok JP, tell us all why. is it because of the vast number of fatalities that come from tunnels? or maybe the even bigger number of injury reports? Should we contact Parachutist and ask if we can start a new column there, "Tunnel Incident Report"?

Why is there a need to have an instructor in the tunnel if it's doesn't have a high risk? The potential for injury is very high, otherwise there would be no need for a progression in performance.

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Show us all the stats you're basing that statement upon. I know of one (1) tunnel flier that was seriously injured, happened in Perris and he's in a wheelchair, I believe for the rest of his life. Come on, rattle off some other serious injuries. tell us all exactly why tunnels are more dangerous. Or maybe you need to read your own signature.

I've never heard of such an incident at Perris. When did it happen?

Tunnel incidents are very rarely reported. I know of a small incomplete list of serious injuries.

Perris:
Broken wrist on a belly fly exit, very experience tunnel flyer.
Broken heel from a missed spot on a novice tunnel sitflyer.
Broken vertibre from a missed spot on a belly flyer.
Dislocated elbow from a head down collision with a wall, very experience tunnel flyer.

Eloy:
Two broken wrists from a head down collision with a wall, very experienced freeflyer, low time tunnel flyer.

Colorado:
Dislocated shoulder from an exit, first time non-skydiving tunnel flyer. Flyer did not disclose previous injury and dislocations. Unfortunately this was the incident that broke my perfect streak of never having an injury on my watch. It's the only one I've ever had as well.

Aerokart (Paris France):
Fatality from broken neck.

If you don't believe it is a more dangerous environment I don't think you have that good a grasp on the situation. That's unfortunate as second to Chris and Brad I thought you were the most safety conscious of the original Colorado staff. Hopefully you have learned more from Scott and Brad H.

The ego exhibited from you two directly affects the way you do your job.

BTW, What happened at SVNH?

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[diablopilot 2]

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No, mainly I have tired of this argument. I have stated my opinion, as based off facts I have personally witnessed, or experienced. I have relayed practical knowledge I have experienced. I response both you and Jason have relayed antidotal, and second hand evidence.

Believe what you will, readers can believe what they wish, I really have no stake in this.

And I have shown that you don't know what you are talking about. You think you know how the tunnel operates, but you are clearly wrong.

Derek

I'll rest by pointing out that by your own admission, you've never seen the effects of a power outage.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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I'll rest by pointing out that by your own admission, you've never seen the effects of a power outage.

You just can't admit when you are wrong, can you? You think you know how the tunnel works and are wrong. I experience the tunnel speed slowing down faster than a power outage all the time, routinely flying up to the turn vanes as the wind speed is slowing down faster than it would during a power outage. Otherr Instructors do multiple back loops, etc. I don't see how you can possibly still think you are right given that I have proven that you don't even understand how the system works.

You didn't answer my question about which tunnel you work at or if you siomply forgot to update your profile.

Derek

[RackJR 0]

but not 45 people dying every year. Not 2 people in the last week. 1 fatality in the history of tunnels. is that right? Some injuries? I'm not trying to say you can't be hurt. But comparing it to skydiving, and then saying it's more dangerous, is ridiculous.

the incident in perris was a belly flyer, being coached, who caught his foot on the door going up, stood up vertical, rolled head down and Christie missed the spot. it was a few years ago.

Since you just added the double wrist in eloy, we should probably note that the IBA trained instructors told Olav not to go head down until he was more comfortable in the tunnel. the story i heard was that he held a sit for about 30 seconds, flipped to his head, held that for about 10 seconds and then slammed into the wall. If someone does something intentionally stupid, what can be done to prevent that?

how many more people are now flying in tunnels, as opposed to skydiving, and not getting hurt? you sound like a news reporter, who with limited information, inflames the story to look sensational. the bottom line is that people do sometimes get minor injuries, and rarely, a serious one. It's not a serious problem, and the people who still work in the industry would rather not have a former instructor going around telling people that flying in the tunnel is going to be a dangerous, potentially injurious experience. I think that most return flyers, skydivers or not, come to realize quickly that they could possibly be hurt. You can get hurt playing golf, too, but most instructors aren't out there preaching about how it's dangerous.

Part of the reason that injuries aren't more prevalent is that there IS a progression, thought out by people with years of experience, to step people gradually forward. Because you don't always have an instructor with you while skydiving doesn't make skydiving safe. Part of the reason there aren't more injuries is because we DO have instructors who are (hopefully) trained to recognize potential problems, try to prevent them, and if that's not possible at least try to minimize the potential for injury. Are you saying that IF we didn't have instructors in there, THEN tunnel flying would be potentially more dangerous than skydiving? Ok, i'll agree with that, but if frogs had wings they wouldn't bump their ass when they jump. what's the point of debating that?

JP the only person here who is flaunting their ego is you. you keep going on and on about the potential for serious injury, in the face of personal experience from other instuctors. you've insulted both myself and Derek when you run out of responses. Your posts constantly talk about you. You, you you. In this last one "your perfect streak", or a previous one, claiming to have intimate knowledge of the system, and then making incorrect statements about how it operates. When you worked here, i saw you miss plenty of spots. None resulted in an injury, but to post something about your perfection is such an incredibly egotistical thing to say, it galls me. I have certainly missed spots as well, but you won't find me talking about any kind of "perfect record".

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BTW, What happened at SVNH?

Since you're asking, you weren't hired. You have been the pariah everywhere you've gone. You were never part of the team here, and your days were numbered no matter how it ended. It was exactly the same in Perris, from what I understand. You're not allowed back at the Perris DZ. Maybe someday you'll realize, you keep having the same problems, and the only common factor is you.

Say what you mean. Do what you say.

[RackJR 0]

anecdotal

Say what you mean. Do what you say.

[skycat 0]

Hey guys (not you in particular Jason) let's give it a break, I'm sure this thread would have been locked ages ago if there was a mod for this forum.

Trust me you aren't going to change each others minds.

Fly it like you stole it!

[RackJR 0]

but it brings a smile to my face daily..........
;)

Say what you mean. Do what you say.

[hookitt 0]

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Trust me you aren't going to change each others minds

I clicked on this forum by accident and found out where the fun is. I'll be reading it from now on.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[diablopilot 2]

Since I never applied for employment at SVNH it's not suprising I was never hired.

I have not to this day been banned from the Perris DZ, infact I was there 8 weeks ago for a visit.

Considering you've never worked at the Perris tunnel, I doubt you have any clear understanding of what went on there.

You've never seen me miss a spot.

And you never had a perfect record to begin with.

Once again you're speaking from limited experience and hearsay. Nice that you're acusing me of ego.

You still claim you have no ego?

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Remster 24]

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I'll be reading it from now on.

Its almost as good as the base forum!

Remster

[RackJR 0]

i never claimed to have no ego. I said the only person showing their unbelievable ego was you.

there are several people who would have a different story about SVNH, and since it would not be their ego bruised by the truth, i think i'll take their word.

I never did work at the Perris tunnel. I did fly about 60 hours there, with coaching and without, i knew all of the instructors there, i still talk to them. Kris Reynolds still works here. he knows pretty well what happened there with you. Scott Levesque still works here. He does too. Keith. Shane. Derek Cox. the list goes on.

Current Perris employees relayed that you called Ben an idiot, and he told you not to come back ever.

I cannot even believe that you have the arrogance to say i never saw you miss a spot. of course i did. your ego simply will not allow that to be public. you moved about as slowly as Rob.

I've never said anything about having a perfect record, so you're not slamming me to say it isn't perfect now, and never was. i'm well aware that i'm not achieving perfection. what a crazy ego you must really have, that's only just leaking out now a little.

you keep pointing to limited experience. That's fine. i have no problem pointing out to anyone that i started tunnel flying only 5 years ago, and i've been an instructor only a year. i'm not claiming in my profile to be a tunnel instructor when i'm not. all your experience didn't move you into the "lead instructor" position you asked for, and then called yourself even though you had no such title. it also didn't get you the "safety supervisor" role you asked for, and then called yourself even though you had no such title. all your experience didn't keep me from passing your flight skills in a matter of weeks. in much less time than you've been an instructor, i've gotten to L3, with some L4 sign-offs, and T2 sign-offs. you're a L1, with some L2 sign-offs. I do have an ego, here it is.

keep it coming JP. I promise you i'm loving that there's no mod in here.

Say what you mean. Do what you say.

[RackJR 0]

oops, i guess you did get the L3 sign off, for time in the tunnel. not skill.

nice job JP.

Say what you mean. Do what you say.

[diablopilot 2]

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Current Perris employees relayed that you called Ben an idiot, and he told you not to come back ever.

Never happened. And since Ben and I were the only two in the room when I had a meeting with him, we are the only two to know what was said. I think you're fishing.

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there are several people who would have a different story about SVNH, and since it would not be their ego bruised by the truth, i think i'll take their word.

Really? Who? I have never applied for work at SVNH. Again, you're fishing.

Perris did not find it important to advance their instructors through the IBA progression. Ask Kris or Scott why it took 3 years for them to become L3's.

As for "lead instructor" or "saftey supervisor" roles, well those are not worth discussing, since YOU were not priviy to the conversations had with owners of SVCO had both in LA and in Denver.

As amatter of fact I seem to remember you abandoning the company since you jumped into an agreement in which you couldn't keep your word.

Slander all you wish, coming from you it means little.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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You've never seen me miss a spot.

I have. The flyer injured their knee too. (I guess that adds to your only had one injury list) You were spotting a sit flyer from behind them, never seen that before or since either.

All that aside, since we all make mistakes, do you realize that you were wrong when you posted how the control system works?

Derek