Which is more likely to save your life?

[piisfish 135]

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AAD.

the RSL takes an action to work, the AAD does not.

well technically you still have to turn it on, but I understand your point

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[MikeJD 0]

If I had to choose between the two, I'd want an AAD over an RSL - so I guess that answers the question for me.

But I'd give up both before I had to jump without an audible altimeter, since generally speaking it's lack of altitude awareness that makes the other two more likely to be needed. Just look at the ratio of AAD 'saves' that are caused by people simply going too low.

[popsjumper 2]

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Also managed to successfully pull silver myself twice, where a RSL would have done nothing, so under the same circumstances, I'd be very likely to do it again.

THAT is scary!

Sounds like he had to pull his reserve a couple of times for total malfunctions. If that's correct, that's not very scary.

Or am I missing something.

I was thinking about partials that the only time a connected RSL would have "done nothing" is when he had to deploy the reserve without a clean breakaway......Horseshoe, maybe? Entanglement? Sour main under 1K? Etc?
All scary to me.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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AAD.

the RSL takes an action to work, the AAD does not.

well technically you still have to turn it on, but I understand your point

I give her a little foreplay action before every jump and she stays turned on.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[JohnMitchell 14]

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Also managed to successfully pull silver myself twice, where a RSL would have done nothing, so under the same circumstances, I'd be very likely to do it again.

Okay, Pops and I want to know, what were these circumstances?

Was it just a total malfunction or something crazy?

I've jumped with and without AAD's, with and without RSL's. I prefer to have both.

[airdvr 197]

I could have worded the question better, but that would have required more of a thought process than I possessed at the time.

Over the course of all the jumps you ever make, do you think you'd be more likely to be placed in a situation where you would need an AAD or an RSL?

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[airtwardo 6]

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I could have worded the question better, but that would have required more of a thought process than I possessed at the time.

Over the course of all the jumps you ever make, do you think you'd be more likely to be placed in a situation where you would need an AAD or an RSL?

IF i thought before hand that I would NEED either I would take a hard look at my involvement in the sport...

I have neither and never have on my personal rigs, but with more & more DZ's requiring an AAD I'm actually about to get one.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[chuteless 1]

I am amazed at the number of posts these days that are about someone wanting to do something extra to save his/her life.

If you can't live with the dangers of the sport, take up table tennis.

There are inherent dangers in the sport..,..live or die with them, but stop griping about how can I do something ( usually unrealistic ) to make sure I dont die.

Stop the worry and enjoy skydiving or get into something else .

[airdvr 197]

Bill, you should know by now that you're not allowed to say things like that anymore. Someone's feelings might get hurt.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[airtwardo 6]

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I am amazed at the number of posts these days that are about someone wanting to do something extra to save his/her life.

If you can't live with the dangers of the sport, take up table tennis.

There are inherent dangers in the sport..,..live or die with them, but stop griping about how can I do something ( usually unrealistic ) to make sure I dont die.

Stop the worry and enjoy skydiving or get into something else .

That coming from a guy that use to throw the parachute out of the plane THEN dive after it!

...Really makes me long for the days when actually just having a parachute WITH you was being safe & conservative!!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[fcajump 153]

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If I had to choose between the two, I'd want an AAD over an RSL - so I guess that answers the question for me.

But I'd give up both before I had to jump without an audible altimeter, since generally speaking it's lack of altitude awareness that makes the other two more likely to be needed. Just look at the ratio of AAD 'saves' that are caused by people simply going too low.

First Cypres fire I ever saw was someone who got used to listening for his audible... was focused on break-off/separation and listening... Finally looked down at 1k...

Between the two (three), I'd rather the one that gives me a chance to wake up when I get taken out by someone else's poor body-flying skills...

JW

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[jumpinjackflsh 0]

Airtwardo,

You always manage to answer the question that is on my mind before I ask it.

I just got back into the sport in late 2012 and had my Vector II checked for airworthiness, reserve repack, and main re-lined. I also had my Cypress pulled because it was eol.

Doing so, I contemplated the move and told myself, moving forward, I'll either replace it, or when I get my new rig, ensure I have one. One for the dz's now requiring them and two because they are promoted throughout the sport.

Early on in my first attempt, static line progression, second five second delay from 5500, I went into a roll/spin and lost altitude awareness trying to recover (damn stupid move). Long story short, I finally got "flat" as it seemed and pulled.
When I opened, I noticed pretty much instantly that I was low, 1,000 feet to be exact. The JM was apparently saying a little prayer to the inventor of the FXC at the time. Either it didn't work, or I pulled before it activated...

Either way, I made it and have many many times contemplated that jump.

As an engineer and self prescribed Mr. Fix it I grew up in a family of men ashamed to call someone in to fix anything from a hot water heater to their cars. Hence, I grew up with an appreciation and awareness of all things mechanical.

When entering skydiving, I became enamored of the systems and the evolution of the sport. I've read everything I can get my hands on and enjoy the elegant simplicity of the skydiving rig.

Obviously the evolution of containers and the devices on the market has done a lot to improve the reliability and safety of the sport, however I do tend to agree with Bill Cole regarding his post and whenever asked by whuffo friends etc... whether it's safe? I respond vehemently, no, of course not.

Aka, early on I stated, sure safer than driving on highway 270 every day in St. Louis... I learned over time though, and do feel, that it's still obviously inherently dangerous and a choice we make to experience something so unique.

That said, back to the evolution, Bill Booth and many others like him have invented some amazing things. The three ring system today, is standard, and notably changed the face of the sport.

Obviously RSL's have become near standard with everyone insisting on one and AAD's pretty much the same and if not in ALL rigs it appears it will be that way in the near future.

I have to ask though, why do you not have any on your rigs?

For me, I see it happening in the future but I can say I'm painfully aware that it's all me. Aka, throw the pilot, if shit goes bad, make the decision, pull red, pull silver, etc...

I'm comfortable with the way my system is rigged that my choices for action based upon the type of malfunction have to be executed in a timely fashion and correctly in order for me to survive. At the end of the day I know if I fail, well, it's pretty much a done deal. I also know when doing my check of three's and preparing to jump, what has to be right, to work. No added complexity.

So many conversations on here about the different scenarios where these devices add complications that can cause further problems, but at the same time, stories where an RSL or AAD did their jobs completely and saved someones ass.

Case in point, I've watched the Skyhook videos and read plenty about them and it's hard not to appreciate the design elements and the effectiveness that's been demonstrated.

Lastly, the ubiquity of them in the sport nowadays and the man that designed it, of course the guy who invented three rings...


Blues,


Jack

[wmw999 2,120]

When I first got back into skydiving, I had the RSL taken off the rig I bought -- why on earth would I need that??? The rig had come with a Cypres, so I kept that.

A couple of years later, I put the RSL back on. I have no doubt that I'll pull the reserve if I need to, so I'm not worried about that. But in the interim a couple of experienced jumpers found themselves cutting away just a little too low to pull their reserves in time, for one reason or another. Neither of them was stupid about risk-taking normally.

I haven't ever needed my RSL -- even when I had a fairly low cutaway on a fast-diving Diablo, it was plenty high not to worry. But I figure that those other guys didn't think they'd have a problem with pulling the reserve, and that maybe I'm no better than they are.

So it's stupid insurance, nothing more, nothing less.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[sundevil777 93]

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I could have worded the question better, but that would have required more of a thought process than I possessed at the time.

Over the course of all the jumps you ever make, do you think you'd be more likely to be placed in a situation where you would need an AAD or an RSL?

I've been on the receiving end of some significant collisions in freefall. One that was quite severe was a head to head knock. Other collisions not involving the head can also cause injuries that prevent a still conscious person being able to pull.

I've never had any trouble at all finding and pulling the reserve handle 4 times, so I definitely think an AAD is more likely to save my life. Not jumping with people that run into me would be nice.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[JohnMitchell 14]

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IF i thought before hand that I would NEED either I would take a hard look at my involvement in the sport...

Perfect answer. I'll say the same for me. Over a dozen mals over the years, various types, didn't need either. If my AAD ever fires, I'll do some real soul searching. . .

But not saying I'd quit.

If I could only have one, I'd stay with the AAD. Best thing to have if someone knocks you out.

Bill Cole is right. There are no guarantees in this sport. There's not a skydive you make that can't kill you. Keep that in mind as you make decisions in this sport and I think you have a chance of living longer.

[ChrisD 0]

The point that continues to amaaaze me is that the death caused by not pulling the reserve, after a sucsessfull cutaway release, is fact!!!

How is this for a vision,...your running up to your comrade, who is in a pile on the ground, dead as a doornail,...the cutaway handle is no where to be found,...

YOU GET THE PICTURE? This is the documented fact!!!

But all of the (disconnect the) RSL discussions are hypothetical???

Somebody help me here, I JUST DON'T get it????


(O'h and pardon my spelling.)

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[airtwardo 6]

I have to ask though, why do you not have any on your rigs?

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There are a few reasons...

I don't use an RSL because I do some CReW and also jump a lot of demos.

In both case you 'may' not necessarily want your reserve coming out while in the bad neighborhood.

I actually had a cutaway a few years ago on a demo in Long Island that had there been an RSL activation I quite likely would have been opening right in front of another guy. I simply chopped, free-fell past him and opened below in uncongested air.

I train pretty hard on my gear & EP's...I have handles I can get to with no problem and have done so 14 times on my gear & 6 on Tandems. I understand the parameters I need to work within and I'm extremely vigilant regarding opening altitudes and reserve hard-decks.

I can't remember ever losing track of altitude and pulling lower than intended when I left the plane. . .not saying it 'can't happen', but maybe knowing I 'need' the extra second or two over someone using an RSL keeps my head in the game.

I remember back in my training when we had shot & a halfs with a bellywart, being constantly hammered with 'it's your last bullet so make it count' regarding reserve activation sequencing & stability. ~I guess there's still some of that left over because I really like having the piece of mind as I pull my knees in to sit up while firing plan B, that I've done everything I possibly can to insure a clean deployment.

Lastly ~ I certainly could hook up the RSL while making 'regular' sport jumps, but I prefer to jump with the same configuration for everything, less to think about.

As far as no AAD ~
I use to say it was hard to justify the cost, but that's probably bullshit. I spend lots on more frivolous stuff.

I think in all honesty I kinda like knowing when I leave the door it's ALL up to me...there's some raw purity there. It's an 'old school' thing I guess, it's definitely a personal choice and I'd never suggest someone else go without one.

It makes me think through what kind of jump I'm doing & who with. Leads to some conservative calls at times ~ and may be why I've never been injured in 38 years doing this.

All that being said, I'll probably have an AAD in one of my rigs in the next few months, there are a few places I wanna go - things I wanna do, that pretty much mandate turning myself in to a battery operated skydiver.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[jumpinjackflsh 0]

Thank you sir,

Great answers. I know nothing about CReW other than the DZO's at Quantum were world class CreW dogs and I've seen it done a few times. Freaking amazing. My balls aren't that big.

Re "all on you" I agree as well. I take the privilege to jump very seriously, work my ep's religiously, do my checks, etc...

I will say, an RSL and AAD are definitely in my future as well however, I am admittedly happy with my current system.

Re collisions, I'd say that is probably the driving factor in what will push a Cypres back into my rig. I think the cost is phenomenal considering. Hopefully other players in the market, etc... will eventually bring the price down to reasonable. However, I've had one collision, jumping with someone that was completely out of control, came right down on top of me. I didn't grey out, but it was damn scary.

After that, I became very leery of what/who I jump with, etc...

All good inf, highly appreciated.


Jack

[JohnMitchell 14]

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The point that continues to amaaaze me is that the death caused by not pulling the reserve, after a sucsessfull cutaway release, is fact!!!

How is this for a vision,...your running up to your comrade, who is in a pile on the ground, dead as a doornail,...the cutaway handle is no where to be found,...

YOU GET THE PICTURE? This is the documented fact!!!

But all of the (disconnect the) RSL discussions are hypothetical???

Somebody help me here, I JUST DON'T get it????

Sure, it's a fact. That's why I use those things. But if I thought I HAD to have them, I wouldn't skydive. I've got a track record of being pretty competent.

But I've always said you can't see the future and you have to play the odds. The odds seem to favor the backup devices.

I know I may sound a little low key but I've already seen my share of fatalities. I don't need to "imagine" what it's like. My viewpoint comes from experience.

[popsjumper 2]

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I've got a track record of being pretty competent.

And he has the release from the shrink to prove it!



Still haven't heard from DvK...

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[JohnMitchell 14]

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I've got a track record of being pretty competent.

And he has the release from the shrink to prove it!

3 out the 4 voices in my head say I'm perfectly sane.

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Still haven't heard from DvK...

I saw a few posts up that he's not a native English speaker. That could explain some of the intensity and syntax of his posts.

[chuteless 1]

Maybe someone's feelings may get hurt, but this constant banter about a thousand things that only have initials ( like CTR, orr BNC, or AOD, or ....aw shucks, you get my meaning ) its awonder that anyone gets to jump because he/she has to spend an hour just figuring out what all those initials mean.

My goodness, , how this sport has changed in the past 50 years., and I dont say for the better.

[airtwardo 6]

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Maybe someone's feelings may get hurt, but this constant banter about a thousand things that only have initials ( like CTR, orr BNC, or AOD, or ....aw shucks, you get my meaning ) its awonder that anyone gets to jump because he/she has to spend an hour just figuring out what all those initials mean.

My goodness, , how this sport has changed in the past 50 years., and I dont say for the better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1lQGXI_SN0

Only thing that's really changed Bill, is the cameras are smaller!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[ChrisD 0]

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Maybe someone's feelings may get hurt, but this constant banter about a thousand things that only have initials ( like CTR, orr BNC, or AOD, or ....aw shucks, you get my meaning ) it’s a wonder that anyone gets to jump because he/she has to spend an hour just figuring out what all those initials mean.

My goodness, , how this sport has changed in the past 50 years., and I don’t say for the better.

Yes I agree things have changed,...
However there are multitudes of individuals here on this forum, a way too large majority with, err, let's say made up names,

MANY of whom are students trying to learn or at least hash out things they little understand, or don't understand...I applaud their efforts, and you can either help them or not.
On the other hand this sport has a resurgence of popularity at the moment, in a political climate that has the ability to shut us down without notice, and all taking place in an environment where insurance rates keep increasing as well as fuel prices!


The registered number of license holding individuals according To the USPA is around 32,000…the number of tandem rides is at an all time high. (Those of you that might feel the need to correct my numbers feel free to do so.) These numbers compared with prior years and factoring the current incident rate indicates we are in fact; have changed for the better, unless of course you want to intentionally hurt yourself??? I suppose it all means, what you mean by “Better.”?

All things considering, we are doing very well,.. I see a forum where everyone is trying very hard to do the best they can do, to understand, to teach, and where else do you get to speak with the owners of the pioneers of the parachuting industry as a whole? Bill Booth, John Sherman, and many, many other fine people here at your beckon call.

I do understand your frustration, however, as do many,…
C

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[YvonneWiggers 0]

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Also managed to successfully pull silver myself twice, where a RSL would have done nothing, so under the same circumstances, I'd be very likely to do it again.

Okay, Pops and I want to know, what were these circumstances?

Was it just a total malfunction or something crazy?

I've jumped with and without AAD's, with and without RSL's. I prefer to have both.

I guess I can answer for Daan as I saw it happen both times - don't do hop and pops with me in the plane on a day with pretty shitty weather, it's bad luck. The first was a pilotchute in tow, the pilotchute was fully cocked and standing like a drogue but the main was simply too big for the container (but it did leave after the reserve deployed). The second one was a hard pull due to the BOC-pocket being worn out. These two were both within the first month of him owning that rig by the way. The rigger who sold him the rig assured him the big main (which was a rental from him) was fine in that rig, and after he hard pull he mentioned 'well yeah, that BOC should've been replaced long ago'.

ETA: Both jumps were from around 3500 to 4000 ft, and both jumps he was under a nice and blue reserve above 2000 ft.

"So I jump out, look up, and think 'Oh SHIT!...

It's PINK!!!'"
- army guy after his first staticline jump