martybarman 0 #1 February 11, 2006 i'm looking at visiting a freind in CO next month. i was excited to see the tunnel opening there. i was looking to get some freefly coaching. here's my delima (spelling). i have another friend that is a very good freeflyer who went to the tunnel in AZ last month. he said it wasn't worth the $. he had bought an hr and pretty much considered that a waste of time and money. he strongly recommended that i not do it. so, here's the question. is it worth it to me? i have over 200 hundred jumps, mostly freefly. i have no problem with sit, stand, transitions, or docks. in the air that is. i know it's different in the tunnel. but how is it different? i'm looking to refine my sit and get a good base for learning head down (stable) this year. i have no real controlled head down time. will this help because i have no bad habits or hurt because i have no base to start from? is it that the other guy knows how to freefly in the air real well and those same body positions don't work in the tunnel and frustrated him? i know that is a question for him, but is this common for flyers with no tunnel time? also, if any tunnel instructors (especially CO) could give me a run down of the steps to get to head down ( i know it's all subject to the flyer) and average time required, that would be greatly appreciated. thanks for the help marty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eeneR 1 #2 February 11, 2006 The key question will be...can you back fly and stable? Im sure one of the fine instructors from SVC will pop in, but I do know that before you do any FFing in any tunnel SV style you need to learn to back fly first. A lot of people do not realize exactly how much you move around in freefall until they get into a tunnel..and the walls hurt. She is not a "Dumb Blonde" - She is a "Light-Haired Detour Off The Information Superhighway." eeneR TF#72, FB#4130, Incauto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
martybarman 0 #3 February 11, 2006 i heard that they use the backfly stablity for the recovery position in sit. i've heard that it can take up to 45 min just to back fly. do you know the next few steps after that. i also saw from your profile that you have 5 hrs in the tunnel. is that mainly RW or FF? if it is FF how long has it taking you to accomplish goals that you have set? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Paulipod 0 #4 February 11, 2006 Hi Marty, We always try to set realistic expectations for anyone without tunnel time experience when it comes to freefly. Bottom line for most people is that the range of movement (fallrate as well as positional) for most relatively new freefliers is that the sky is forgiving. You never really need to precisely set fallrate or stay perfectly still in the sky. Also you dont need safety positions like back and stop yourself from hitting walls. All of this takes time.... and not small amounts. For anyone without tunnel time - alot of freefly movements are out of reach for a while... and we do get some people frustrated that they cant sit straight away... or why cant I try headdown yet etc... etc... My general rule of thumb would be if someone needs to ask if they will be able to do it - likelyhood is that they wont be able to. So dont expect at a couple of hundred freefly jumps to rock into any tunnel and copy your moves there.... probably will take a little time. All that said - You can learn so many skills in the tunnel and perfect your bodyflying that it is for most an incredible investment in their abilities. What you learn in the tunnel my have adaptations for safety or different reasons (no rig etc) but pretty much all of the skills you learn translate well to the sky and will without doubt make you a better flyer. If it were a waste of money as a training tool... I guess the many thousands of skydivers that do it would no consider it.... you just need to have realistic expectations and understand that the sky and tunnel are not identical on visit #1 Hope this helps Bodyflight Bedford www.bodyflight.co.uk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #5 February 12, 2006 It is absolutly worth it. I'd suggest your friends opinion might be frustration. It's hard to be humbled when you assume you should do well at something. If you wish to visit our tunnel in CO I'd be happy to help you. As for head down, it really isn't the end all, be all of the tunnel. It's cool and all but you lean more from transitions and upright flying. The flow is as such: You'll need to show basic control on your belly (right and left turn, foward and backward motion, and vertical control) then learn the same thing on your back. Back flying is not only fun, but really shows you how to use body parts you'd never thought of using before. Then the progression moves onto sit. Same sort of control is required, then followed by front flips, back flips, and cartwheels. After that (the begining of all transitions) then one can start on supported head down in the tunnel. It will take some time to get to that point, but just doing a simple 15 minute session can do wonders for your skydiving. I had 3000+ skydives prior to starting to work, fly, and instruct in the tunnel, and I can fly circles around the "old" me. The same body positions work in both the air and tunnel, don't let anyone fool you on that point. What you learn in the tunnel will give you MUCH more range and ability in the air. PM me or e-mail [email protected] any time you have more questions. Edit:Quotei've heard that it can take up to 45 min just to back fly. Maybe to be able to back fly as well as one belly flys, but most people pick up the basics in less than 15 minutes.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
martybarman 0 #6 February 12, 2006 paul and jp, thanks for the response. i understand what you mean by not confusing the tunnel with the air. they are definitely 2 different animals. but, any gain in the tunnel will be gain in the air. i spoke again with my friend who was dissappointed about his tunnel tunnel expierence yesterday. apparently, him and his friend were led to believe that would "turn a corner" and really progress in their jump and tunnel time in AZ. they did make progress just not as much as they were "sold" on. he reinforced what jp said about making use of all your body parts for movement and translated well in the air. thanks again for your responses. jp i look forward to meeting you next month. i will probably contact you once i get more solid on the dates. marty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eeneR 1 #7 February 12, 2006 Quotei heard that they use the backfly stablity for the recovery position in sit. I have had to use it as recovery even when belly flying Quotei've heard that it can take up to 45 min just to back fly. do you know the next few steps after that.? I have seen that JP has answered alot of these questions reguarding this, however I will add one thing. This actually goes with any training. What works for one person may not work for others. What I mean by that, something that might take someone 45 min may only take you 15 or could take you longer. What you gain from the training is dependant on how you approach it, and what you learn from it. Quotei also saw from your profile that you have 5 hrs in the tunnel. is that mainly RW or FF? if it is FF how long has it taking you to accomplish goals that you have set? The time I have has been pretty much belly, with the exception of the one time I got taken out and shot across the tunnel and ended up flying on my back...that was cool.. First thing I would say...Check your ego at the door...it will do nothing but get in your way. Do that, and listen to what the instructors are telling you....and you will learn SOOO much...IT was worth every penny, and I intend on doing more time here shortly now that my shoulder is healed! She is not a "Dumb Blonde" - She is a "Light-Haired Detour Off The Information Superhighway." eeneR TF#72, FB#4130, Incauto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #8 February 12, 2006 QuoteFirst thing I would say...Check your ego at the door... ....or you WILL check it against the wall ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stumpy 256 #9 February 12, 2006 LOL - I like that, so true.......Never try to eat more than you can lift Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
base698 1 #10 February 13, 2006 I think an hour or two done over the course of a few days would be most helpful. I wouldn't attempt for much past that because you really have to spend a shitload of money to get a lot better after that point. It's probably better to get the base with backflying and if you can get off the net in a sit you'll be doing good when you get in the air. It worked out a lot of my kinks with sitflying. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
martybarman 0 #11 February 13, 2006 QuoteI think an hour or two done over the course of a few days would be most helpful. _________________________________________________ is that what you did? how did it help you specifically? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Bluefox 1 #12 February 13, 2006 QuoteI think an hour or two done over the course of a few days would be most helpful. I agree but mostly because of fatigue and the ability to absorb new skills. Knowledge retention seems to be enhanced when it is spread over a few days, especially when it has to do with muscle memory. You would get more out of your time and money by doing 30 minutes spread over 3 days then you would by doing 1 hour in a day. Even if you are extremely fit, fatigue will turn you into a useless blob when you first start freeflying in the tunnel. Back flying is not as tiring but once you get to sit you want to make sure to spread your time out so you get a chance to recover between flights and sessions. On that note it’s a good idea to be well rested, fed, hydrated and not hung-over. Being at the top of your game will help increase your performance and progression. (I have personally figured this out the hard way. A lesson we all learn over and over again.) Quote I wouldn't attempt for much past that because you really have to spend a shitload of money to get a lot better after that point. It's probably better to get the base with backflying and if you can get off the net in a sit you'll be doing good when you get in the air. It worked out a lot of my kinks with sitflying. I don’t agree that it’s not worth pursuing tunnel freeflying beyond the basics. I think this is a matter of how much you want to spend and how good you want to be. It is true that it takes a lot of time and money to get to the point where you can safely pull off crazy moves like HD or back carving but there is so much to learn leading up to that stuff. All of which helps your flying. With a good coach (this is key) there is tons to learn and each person gets different skills and progression out of their tunnel time. I do agree however that if you can get to the point where you are sitting stable off the net you are pretty much golden. There seems to be a huge learning spurt after you reach that point because you find a solid position that you know is not moving around the tunnel or sky. I think finding those solid base positions can be the foundation for learning to fly each position. It’s kind of like an AFF student who just figured out how to stop their unintentional spin. Suddenly they have the basic foundation for every other move, their recovery position. (Of course I will probably catch a rash of crap for presenting body flight in such a compartmentalized fashion by separating each position. Ultimately of course the goal is to transition though each position with ease and control.) Ok so this is all just my opinion from someone who is sitting at work day dreaming about flying in the tunnel. La CANOPY COURSE Video Training with Brian Germain at AdventureWisdom.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #13 February 13, 2006 QuoteYou would get more out of your time and money by doing 30 minutes spread over 3 days then you would by doing 1 hour in a day. Even if you are extremely fit, fatigue will turn you into a useless blob I personally think one hour a day over a couple days is a nice relaxed pace and a half hour over 3 days excessively light. BUT: I've seem people do a 15 minute chunk in one day and be absolutely miserable. I've done 4 hours and more over 3 days and wanted more. I've seen very experienced people do more than that and seem fine. I've seen coaches continuously do sessions throughout a 3 day camp (over 20 total hours - like 12 hours each coach flying and coaching) and only look a bit tired at the end, but still flying very well. The amount of training is so subjective to the individual, I would hesitate to lay out a guideline without knowing the individual pretty well. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Bluefox 1 #14 February 13, 2006 I agree that it really is subjective when it comes to how much tunnel you can fly and that has a lot to do with skill and conditioning. My comment was referring to a new person learning how to freeflying in the tunnel. Under those circumstances I think we can make a few assumptions. I personally can do hours of RW in a day and still be some what productive but freefly takes a lot more energy. (this relates back to a previous post I made about wind speeds and freefly vs RW. Basically with FF you hold yourself up the whole time where with RW for most people it’s all about changing your arch or wearing lead.) Of course flying an hour each day for 3 days would be great! La CANOPY COURSE Video Training with Brian Germain at AdventureWisdom.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #15 February 13, 2006 QuoteRight now mine is that I don't live with in a reasonable driving distance to a tunnel. now I'm sad too (if you download the worldteam video from the record day (it's a big file) I think one of your teammates got a pretty good face shot in it.) ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Bluefox 1 #16 February 13, 2006 Whuwho!!!!! Let’s just hijack this thread! World Team Rocks! I’m so happy for everyone involved in getting the record. Just thinking about it gives me the warm fuzzies! Thanks rehmwa! I needed that pick me up. I was sinking in to a fit of tunnel deprivation. CANOPY COURSE Video Training with Brian Germain at AdventureWisdom.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #17 February 13, 2006 QuoteThanks rehmwa! I needed that pick me up. I was sinking in to a fit of tunnel deprivation. You guys better get it together this year is all I have to say. With my team fully committed to nats this year I'd hate to go and not see a serious Fox contingient. How will we know if all the rumors are true? ... 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Bluefox 1 #12 February 13, 2006 QuoteI think an hour or two done over the course of a few days would be most helpful. I agree but mostly because of fatigue and the ability to absorb new skills. Knowledge retention seems to be enhanced when it is spread over a few days, especially when it has to do with muscle memory. You would get more out of your time and money by doing 30 minutes spread over 3 days then you would by doing 1 hour in a day. Even if you are extremely fit, fatigue will turn you into a useless blob when you first start freeflying in the tunnel. Back flying is not as tiring but once you get to sit you want to make sure to spread your time out so you get a chance to recover between flights and sessions. On that note it’s a good idea to be well rested, fed, hydrated and not hung-over. Being at the top of your game will help increase your performance and progression. (I have personally figured this out the hard way. A lesson we all learn over and over again.) Quote I wouldn't attempt for much past that because you really have to spend a shitload of money to get a lot better after that point. It's probably better to get the base with backflying and if you can get off the net in a sit you'll be doing good when you get in the air. It worked out a lot of my kinks with sitflying. I don’t agree that it’s not worth pursuing tunnel freeflying beyond the basics. I think this is a matter of how much you want to spend and how good you want to be. It is true that it takes a lot of time and money to get to the point where you can safely pull off crazy moves like HD or back carving but there is so much to learn leading up to that stuff. All of which helps your flying. With a good coach (this is key) there is tons to learn and each person gets different skills and progression out of their tunnel time. I do agree however that if you can get to the point where you are sitting stable off the net you are pretty much golden. There seems to be a huge learning spurt after you reach that point because you find a solid position that you know is not moving around the tunnel or sky. I think finding those solid base positions can be the foundation for learning to fly each position. It’s kind of like an AFF student who just figured out how to stop their unintentional spin. Suddenly they have the basic foundation for every other move, their recovery position. (Of course I will probably catch a rash of crap for presenting body flight in such a compartmentalized fashion by separating each position. Ultimately of course the goal is to transition though each position with ease and control.) Ok so this is all just my opinion from someone who is sitting at work day dreaming about flying in the tunnel. La CANOPY COURSE Video Training with Brian Germain at AdventureWisdom.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #13 February 13, 2006 QuoteYou would get more out of your time and money by doing 30 minutes spread over 3 days then you would by doing 1 hour in a day. Even if you are extremely fit, fatigue will turn you into a useless blob I personally think one hour a day over a couple days is a nice relaxed pace and a half hour over 3 days excessively light. BUT: I've seem people do a 15 minute chunk in one day and be absolutely miserable. I've done 4 hours and more over 3 days and wanted more. I've seen very experienced people do more than that and seem fine. I've seen coaches continuously do sessions throughout a 3 day camp (over 20 total hours - like 12 hours each coach flying and coaching) and only look a bit tired at the end, but still flying very well. The amount of training is so subjective to the individual, I would hesitate to lay out a guideline without knowing the individual pretty well. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bluefox 1 #14 February 13, 2006 I agree that it really is subjective when it comes to how much tunnel you can fly and that has a lot to do with skill and conditioning. My comment was referring to a new person learning how to freeflying in the tunnel. Under those circumstances I think we can make a few assumptions. I personally can do hours of RW in a day and still be some what productive but freefly takes a lot more energy. (this relates back to a previous post I made about wind speeds and freefly vs RW. Basically with FF you hold yourself up the whole time where with RW for most people it’s all about changing your arch or wearing lead.) Of course flying an hour each day for 3 days would be great! La CANOPY COURSE Video Training with Brian Germain at AdventureWisdom.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #15 February 13, 2006 QuoteRight now mine is that I don't live with in a reasonable driving distance to a tunnel. now I'm sad too (if you download the worldteam video from the record day (it's a big file) I think one of your teammates got a pretty good face shot in it.) ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bluefox 1 #16 February 13, 2006 Whuwho!!!!! Let’s just hijack this thread! World Team Rocks! I’m so happy for everyone involved in getting the record. Just thinking about it gives me the warm fuzzies! Thanks rehmwa! I needed that pick me up. I was sinking in to a fit of tunnel deprivation. CANOPY COURSE Video Training with Brian Germain at AdventureWisdom.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #17 February 13, 2006 QuoteThanks rehmwa! I needed that pick me up. I was sinking in to a fit of tunnel deprivation. You guys better get it together this year is all I have to say. With my team fully committed to nats this year I'd hate to go and not see a serious Fox contingient. How will we know if all the rumors are true? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
