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UntamedDOG

Wind Tunnels...a passing fad?

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You're right--if you consider all other factors except the price, then yes, they're a great way to developing freefall skills. But my beef is that I've only seen prices that are too high to make the experience worth pursuing.

Case in point: In Perris Valley, adults are charged $50 for two minutes (and $35 for each additional two minutes). So if I make a weekend out of it, I'm spending $200 on a plane ticket, $120 on a motel room for a couple nights, and $85 to fly for 4 minutes. Add food & beer, & you're pushing $450-$500...for 4 minutes!

Wind tunnels accelerate the learning process, but if they cost the same per minute of freefall time, I'm better off just doing the real thing. Anybody know where I can find one within a driving distance from Milwaukee?
"DOOR!!!"

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Sorry for the double-post. I found a link to the place out in Pigeon Forge, TN (http://www.flyawayindoorskydiving.com) and it's just barely road-trippable. They sell blocks of time, like 15 minutes for $150. That puts a whole new light on the subject. I like the idea of getting 15 jumps' worth of free-flying experience in just a day.

So I've totally flip-flopped. You were right. I needed to do more research. Now I just want to hop in the car and go out there. If I ever disappoint 19 other people by goofing up a good formation, I'll kick myself for not doing some tunnel-time, ya know?
"DOOR!!!"

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I hate to give ammo to your argument, but from what I've heard, the FlyAway tunnels are nothing more than a ride for tourists. The only tunnels that come remotely close to simulating actual freefall are the military windtunnels, and the Skyventure tunnels.
Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

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I predict that wind tunnels will eventually fade from our sport.



I don't agree. I believe they are and will continue to be valuable training aids. But I do think there will be market shifts. For one thing, we'll probably (I hope) start seeing tunnel training incorporated into AFF, for areas that have both student dropzones and a tunnel (hmmm, Colorado comes to mind :)). Personally, I used tunnel time to further my own skills with the objective of becoming an instructor - I expect that more people will do that, rather than waiting 10 years and getting a few thousand jumps. Also, I don't see how any team could be competitive if they didn't train in the tunnel. As long as we have 4-8 way (and even VRW now), we'll have people split tunnel time to train together. Then there will be people that are willing to accept the risk of tunnel time, but not the risk of actual jumping, and they will make entire new sports out of tunnels. The big risk of tunnels, as I see it, is that the cost of flying time will continue to increase - already it's more than half the cost of real freefall time.

Now, what we need are really good parachute simulators that help people learn to land and avoid canopy collisions.
Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

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I have heard that the electric bills run $15k+ per month which equates to around 168 Otter loads.



You can come up with a worst-case rate just by looking at the total
installed horsepower of the motors. I did a little math for this at
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1944782;#1944782 .

Eule
PLF does not stand for Please Land on Face.

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but from what I've heard, the FlyAway tunnels are nothing more than a ride for tourists.



I have three hours in Flyaway LV. My view is that they are good for jumpers with less than 100 jumps in your discipline of choice. It was great when I was having trouble with AFF. It was also good when I was practicing for my coach rating. After I got past 100 jumps, it didn't do that much for me, and I started going to Orlando.

But I think a lot of skydivers can still benefit tremendously from Flyaway. It's just not for all jumpers. And yes, you'll be in there with whuffos, but that's the same as Skyventure Orlando.
Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

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'Case in point: In Perris Valley, adults are charged $50 for two minutes (and $35 for each additional two minutes). So if I make a weekend out of it, I'm spending $200 on a plane ticket, $120 on a motel room for a couple nights, and $85 to fly for 4 minutes. Add food & beer, & you're pushing $450-$500...for 4 minutes!'

These rates are for non skydivers and include classroom time to teach you how to fly your body. Skydivers' rates are much more reasonable especially if you split the time and cost between a large group.

That said a big market for most tunnels is as a ride for whuffos. Airkix in the UK is aimed at whuffos but it also does a fantastic job for skydivers.

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I hate to give ammo to your argument, but from what I've heard, the FlyAway tunnels are nothing more than a ride for tourists. The only tunnels that come remotely close to simulating actual freefall are the military windtunnels, and the Skyventure tunnels.



Not everyone feels this way, esp. tunnel rats. As w. SV tunnels, those who say they don't like it usually don't fly well and that is the driving force in the opinion.

Flyaway is what started it all. Without Flyaway Pigeon Forge and Vegas there would be no SkyVentures. Flyaway is a part of the sports evolution, know it, fly it, love it! I say go check out different environments and be a good flyer, be able to fly it all no matter what the suit looks like or skydivers say.

You will love the vibe in Vegas and the instructors are all amazing teachers and flyers. Not to mention Keith (tunnelrat) is an amazing host and kind enough to tolerate Tunnel Pink Mafia Madness in Feb.

Fly them all!!!! What do you have to loose?
Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate
www.TunnelPinkMafia.com

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Fly them all!!!! What do you have to loose?



Money and time Paige.....

I dont get all rilled up about tunnels. I'd rather be skydiving.

That beeing said, they are now an invaluable part of coaching. So as far as having fun like you rats do ;), I really wouldnt just spend the money on hanging out at a tunnel.

To Matty: take it from someone who doenst get a woody from tunnels: a coached session is worth a multiple of the freefall time you simulate.
Remster

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But you have to admit, you and Karen would come out my way to fly and ski:)



and climb

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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>adults are charged $50 for two minutes

You can get an hour for $700. That comes out to $12 a minute. If you do two-way drills, that's an equivalent of $6 per jump.

So run those numbers again assuming you and 3 other people split the costs. Including ticket, motel and food, and you're STILL at about $15 a jump for the equivalent of 30 jumps. That's why so many people travel to tunnels - they get more freefall time for less money than skydiving, and they can do it all at once.

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When you say "an hour" for $700, is that 60 minutes of actual time in the wind tunnel, or is something like:

5 minutes of introductions
10 minutes of lecturing about safety
10 minutes of orientation about the equipment
7 minutes putting on the equipment
1 minute of tunnel time
9 minutes of debreifing
8 minutes of returning the equipment
10 minutes of a ceremony to present the certificates

Okay, that's a humorous exaggeration, but I think you see what I'm asking.
"DOOR!!!"

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When you say "an hour" for $700, is that 60 minutes of actual time in the wind tunnel, or is something like:



The tunel runs for 60 minutes. You get that time minus time spent changing people (if you wait for the previous person to get out before going in) or having a coach demonstrate something without you in the tunel.

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>When you say "an hour" for $700, is that 60 minutes of actual time
>in the wind tunnel, or is something like:

It is 60 minutes physically in the wind tunnel. You can fly all that time if you like. If it's just you, solo, you'll probably get an actual 58:30 or 59:00; the only time you would 'lose' is the time to spin up the fans and get in and out of the tunnel itself.

If you have four people doing two minutes in, two minutes out you're probably going to get about 1:50 of actual airtime for every two minutes; that allows for 5 seconds to enter and 5 seconds to exit. That means you will actually get about 55 minutes of airtime total. If you can enter and exit quickly, of course, you get more total time.

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> Does having 3-4 other people in there with you make it difficult to practice your skills?

Depends what you're doing. For individual skills, 2-way seems ideal, either with a coach in the tunnel or two jumpers and one coach outside the tunnel.

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Does having 3-4 other people in there with you make it difficult to practice your skills?



There is an interior chamber with a bench. You walk in, the doors are sealed and the fans start up. It's noisy with a slight breeze in this interior waiting room. There are two doors and you just cycle thru - in one door for your two minutes, fly out the other door grab a seat on the bench and slide down until its your turn again.

I didn't understand how helpful tunnels were until I finally got in one. You will also not understand just how many bad habits you have until you are in there with a coach.

I think the ones in Vegas and Orlando are the smartest tunnel locations around. You have a steady 24/7 stream of tourists that pay more per minute of tunnel time. I don't know the Perris or Eloy areas, but it sounds like both are a bit off path from typical attractions, but having them on two of the busiest DZs around will work to their favor for a good flow of customers. Pigeon Forge has lasted for many years - but then again there was very little competition at the time.
_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

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It's noisy with a slight breeze in this interior waiting room.



Won't be as noisy in the new SkyVenture Colorado Tunnel;)
May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

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I don't know the Perris or Eloy areas, but it sounds like both are a bit off path from typical attractions



My understanding is that, for at least the Eloy one, the business plan was based on skydivers, not tourists.



and we keep it pretty busy nearly all the available time already..

in addition they have regular 'non-skydiver' groups as well...
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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

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