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kamalasound

Last Call Bedford Vs. Airkicks

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Ok I am planning a trip to the UK for some tunnel time (60 min.) and having flown 5 hours in other tunnels I am now planning to work on my head down skills. I weigh 92kg and fly all sit fly positions in any kind of tunnel eventhough in the slow ones it gets kind of tough.
Head down is a problem except for Eloy.
My question is:

Airkicks or Bedford for headdown tunnel?

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I would recommend based on your skill level...

If on your head you can control fall rate - then either is a choice....

If you cant do that so well - Airkix would be a better choice. Our windspeed is contant throughout the chamber so when we turn the speed up.... you dont get to a position where you will just stay still.

With the chamber size diameter increasing the higher you go at Airkix you would get to a point regardless of what you do that would be stable.

Both tunnels I guess will be needing to see that you are in control in all other positions before you do this.

We have had alot of flyers with no problem head down here, with our speed increase recently there is probably too much power for 99% of flyers.

I would ask Fabian / Babylon after their visits this week ;):)

Bodyflight Bedford
www.bodyflight.co.uk

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i was at Airkix recently and they didnt have anyone approved for spotting head down students yet. As far as i recall Bedford didnt have anyone either. But Paul can probably correct me on that. of coure there are specialist tunnel camps, Bedford have Babylon coming, Airkix have had Rusty over. i would find out if the instructors are able to teach head down before deciding on which tunnel. i learnt a bit of head down at Perris, it involves doing a head stand whilst holding the net , the letting go and praciticing small amounts of movement. All of this is on the net so dont expect to be tranistioning from a sit and flying head down straight away.

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Thanks Philh, but I've done all of that stuff. I transition on my head with a half front loop and if there is enough air I get to stay quite stable..............air is the problem though with my kind of weight!!!

I might try both. Are they far away apart?

By the way thanks to Paulipod for the honesty.

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Actually they are quite close. we have doen both tunnels in one day v easily.I find Airkix has more powerful airflow and sit flying is a lot easier there. having said that bedford have just made an adjustment to make theres more powerful. See my thread bedford adjustment, im stil waiting for more reviews on that front. At the moment though my provisional verdict is go to Bedford if you are looking for space but Arikix if you want power. Whether that remains to be the case after bedfords adjustment remains to be seen.

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hey, having done AFF this summer i want to take my whole family (me mum dad brother(15) and sister(18) ) to a wind tunnel and let them have their 2 minutes. (hopefully i can get a subsidy from my dad to pay!) so i was wondering in your opinion which tunnel would give the best overall experience for a family of 1st timers?

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hey, having done AFF this summer i want to take my whole family (me mum dad brother(15) and sister(18) ) to a wind tunnel and let them have their 2 minutes. (hopefully i can get a subsidy from my dad to pay!) so i was wondering in your opinion which tunnel would give the best overall experience for a family of 1st timers?



Haven't been to airkicks but when I was in bedford there was a whole family flying for the first time, they were very well looked after and looked like they were having a ball.

It was my first time in the tunnel too and they couldn't have been more helpful.
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which tunnel would give the best overall experience for a family of 1st timers



BOTH of course!
If you want a really great TUNNEL EXPERIENCE for your whole family, go to both of them!
then you can decide as a group if you liked one more than the other..
Flying in two tunnels in one day is quite an experience and reserved for those who are very fortunate to live near 2!

Do it all!

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Airkix without a doubt. Bedford is great and has fantastic staff but once your family have done their session there is little else for them to do. Bedford town is relatively close to the tunnel but it really doesn't have much going for it. Airkix on the other hand is in Milton Keynes city centre next to a modern shopping centre so it has got loads of facilities nearby including bars, restaurants, cinema, indoor ski slope, and loads of shops. In the summer you can also go water skiing on a nearby lake. The Airkix staff are also really good and professional so they will look after you and your families' needs very well.

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I haven't been to Airkix yet, paid Bedford a visit today. I've always found 4-way video somewhat boring to watch but today I got to see it 'live'. Holy shit! I can't believe how dangerous that stuff is, it was incredible to watch. There were 2 teams in there, a Danish team and the Bodyflight team. Especially watching the Bodyflight team - their feet never came close to the sides of the tunnel and they were turning points hard and fast!

And we couldn't get time because they were fully booked until 5pm. Pretty impressive for a Monday I thought. I have taken long breaks from skydiving, last year I did no skydives, this year I did about 50. I only went there because an American friend wanted to have a look, yet I found myself standing there watching these guys in this monster and in my head I was just doing the maths about how I could budget for a block of time. Also seeing Fabian, Cathy and one of the staff all carving together was impressive.

I've done a little time in the Orlando tunnel, but nothing quite prepares you for something this size. That tunnel is a freak of nature and I want some. :)
Will

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I would say having flown 6 ish hours in Bedford so far that until last week i would have had no doubts that freeflying in Airkix would have been the better option, with Bedford exclipsing everyone else for 4 way. However after flying on sunday night I had the first taste of the power up grade. The Air was incredible and watching Fabian flying on his head all around the flight chamber (without the tunnel on 100% power) I would say that Bedford may now have the edge on this front too!! This may annoy certain individuals but im affraid I am increasingly finding it hard to think of going anywhere else to use a tunnel.....its only a matter of time before U.S teams start coming to England to use this giant. You have to try it to believe it. It is at times hard to bump a wall even if you try and with the air being constant and smooth right the way up to them and around the doors it causes little problems if you do find one. Thanks to Paul for bringing this dream to life! Dont take my word for it though as suggested previously go to both Bedford and Airkix as they are mearly 20 miles apart and make up your own mind!
Kyle Thomas

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This may annoy certain individuals but im affraid I am increasingly finding it hard to think of going anywhere else to use a tunnel.....its only a matter of time before U.S teams start coming to England to use this giant.



Been a bit slack in reading the tunnel forum, hence my "outdated" post:P

US teams, I think, will not come to the UK for tunnel training in a 16footer tunnel (or any tunnel for that matter) because the cost is so prohibitive. Tunnel time in the UK is costing more than in the US, plus the exchange rate is not beneficial to Americans, especially when they have to pay for accomm, food, travel, etc in the UK with the US dollar.

Please do not think that I am attacking any tunnel in the UK, coz I am not, but there are 2 reasons why Americans would not travel to the UK to train (or even Europeans):

1. Cost and value, especially for coaching. 3 hours of tunnel time in Eloy with 3 flyers and an Airspeed coach will cost $1,000 per person, plus you can skydive before/after the tunnel.

2. Size - 12 foot is not really big enough and 16 ft is too big. Let me explain... A lot of the moves you do in, for example, 4-way are actually quite small - even the blocks. A 12 footer ususally hoses the tail when doing 4-way - unless you are top world class level. A 14/16 footer allows more room for error and does not hose anyone, however, for accuarate flying of, especially, vertical blocks, a 16 footer allows more space than is what is really necessary when flying a block.

Eg, Stardian - you move forward, turn and adjust levels. In a 12/14 footer, that move is more pronounced otherwise you will hit a wall! With that extra space, it is not that efficiant.

I hope that all makes sense, if not, please disregardB|

Either way, the UK is very lucky to have 2 tunnels and it will transform UK skydiving for the better (I hope!)

Liz

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there are 2 reasons why Americans would not travel to the UK to train (or even Europeans)



That's funny..... Could've sworn that the Danish, Norweigans and also Babylon have flown to the UK especially to fly in Bedford.......

There are sereral DZ's within easy driving distance from here, Wouldn't take long to get to Sibson, Chatteris, Hinton, Langer and Weston, So people could Skydive and Tunnel fly in the same day.

How can you have 'Too Much Space' !?!
there's plenty of space in the sky, so why wouldn't you want space in the Tunnel?

Sorry to follow this thread 'off topic', just needed to comment on those points.

Regards which Tunnel for Head-Down, Babylon and Fabian managed some awesome flying in the Tunnel, even on Low Power,
But if you have the chance to fly in both, then why not.....

Nigel :)
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Sponored by NZ Aerosports, CYPRES 2, Tonfly & L&B

Team Dirty Sanchez #232

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Could've sworn that the Danish, Norweigans and also Babylon have flown to the UK especially to fly in Bedford



Ok, let me take away the Europeans!!!!

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How can you have 'Too Much Space' !?!
there's plenty of space in the sky, so why wouldn't you want space in the Tunnel? How can you have 'Too Much Space' !?!



Proximity. In the sky there are no walls/net to reference off. In a tunnel there are and in the tunnel it shows how little distance you have to travel to do to make a block the most efficient.

The same concept can be used for freeflying, but as I haven't done any freeflying for 2 years, I could not comment.

Off topic a little bit, the Airkix tunnel has been the most succesful tunnel in it's opening month than any other tunnel in the world so far.

Congrats to all involved.

Liz

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Off topic a little bit, the Airkix tunnel has been the most succesful tunnel in it's opening month than any other tunnel in the world so far.



Given you are not financial administrator for every tunnel in the world thats a bit of a sweeping statement to make ;):D

Bodyflight Bedford
www.bodyflight.co.uk

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It's me again..............
So how is head down in the bedford tunnel after the upgrading?
Fabian does'nt count, he is light and extremely experienced and he flyies head down in all tunnels across the world.

P.S.
We are 10 freeflyers and ready to book 8 hours in mid january but power is what we are looking for so can someone help us with this final call?

By the way are there head down spotters in bedford or in Air Kicks?
We are bringing are own instructor from the US but a head down spotter would be appreciated.

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We have always had enough speed for head-down... after the upgrade it just means bigger guys like me get a chance too...

Babylon were head-down alot - and so is our own Rob Silver.

Not sure of your experience though, so cant promise that we would think you are at a stage to try! - would need to see stong vertical / sit / back skills etc.

Bottom line is that head-down in any tunnel is out of the reach of most flyers for a good number of hours of tunnel time... if you have done alot of tunnel time already then maybe its OK

:)
EDITED TO ADD :

There is a nice video loaded onto [URL]www.bodyflight.net[/URL] which shows a little bit of freefly here. Thanks to Shane!

Bodyflight Bedford
www.bodyflight.co.uk

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Proximity. In the sky there are no walls/net to reference off. In a tunnel there are and in the tunnel it shows how little distance you have to travel to do to make a block the most efficient.


One of the biggest problems with learning blocks in tunnels is that you use artificial references such as the walls and net to keep the block tight and as soon as you get in the sky you lose these and have to make them tight all over again. There is no reason why a larger tunnel will have any negative effect on blocks.

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the Airkix tunnel has been the most succesful tunnel in it's opening month than any other tunnel in the world so far.



I know I would LOVE to see the numbers you are referring to..
Please let us all know what the other 30+ vwts did in their first month of operation in addition to the Airkix tunnel...

This will be GREAT information!

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I too was a bit fascinated by the "too big" comment and can only say that I find it a bit ridiculous. A team that gets used to "jammed-up" proximity in the tunnel and relies on that condition to keep their reference is not, in my opinion, training wisest. The more room the better, so long as it's clean air. Staying centered in the cone is all a matter of reference. Every tunnel has a reference, you just have to adjust to the sight picture.

Chuck

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Theres probably a 'middle ground' of 'too big'. Airkix is small enough that when learning if you go unstable its a matter of moments before you hit a wall. Bedford is so bif that most people find theres enough room to go unstable and recover *before* hitting a wall. Somewhere inbetween (probably around 14ft) would be a point where you go unstable, generate speed but dont have enough room to recover. That would hurt :|

Airkix and Bedford both have pro's and con's for learning head-down. Airkix's tunnel design by its very nature makes it 'easier' to learn stability, but on the down side, its harder to learn fall rate control than at Bedford - another essential head-down skill.

Pound for pound, I'd rather my learning curve was more involved and took slightly longer, than rushed and didn't train as well in an area as I could. For me personally, my money would go with Bedford. I'd like the room to recover whilst learning. I'd also like the room to freefly (generally) with more than 1 or 2 other people. This may be a factor when deciding which tunnel to use for competition practice.

PS - I'm yet to see a 12-way hybrid in Airkix ;)

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Hi Ross,

I don't understand the "why" of this statement... could you explain a bit more for me??
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Airkix's tunnel design by its very nature makes it 'easier' to learn stability, but on the down side, its harder to learn fall rate control than at Bedford - another essential head-down skill.



specifically,
what is it about the airkix design that makes it easier (than bedford I assume) to learn stability
and what is the problem with learning fall rate control at bedford?

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Hi Ross,

I don't understand the "why" of this statement... could you explain a bit more for me??

Quote

Airkix's tunnel design by its very nature makes it 'easier' to learn stability, but on the down side, its harder to learn fall rate control than at Bedford - another essential head-down skill.



specifically,
what is it about the airkix design that makes it easier (than bedford I assume) to learn stability
and what is the problem with learning fall rate control at bedford?



Hi Dawn

I didn't mean to imply that learning fall rate control was harder at Bedford - far from it. Rather, imo the control required at bedford is potentially more than at Airkix.

Airkix tunnel like all skyventure tunnels, spills more and more air out the mesh sides the higher up the tunnel you go. Bedfords tunnel doesn't. If your fall rate control is lacking, you'll reach a point where as you assend in the Airkix tunnel you'll naturally 'level out' as lift is reduced by the spilling air, and "hey - I'm stable". In bedford, applying the same technique will have you on the top net. So learn in Airkix gives you the skills to fly upside down. Learning in Bedford gives you that too, but you'll learn more efficient fallrate control too (albeit you'll be carving sooner at Airkix because of the tunnel helping the fallrate control)

I hope that makes sense. I'm far from an authority on the subject with so few hours in the tunnel (6.5), but I do take an interest in the 'physics' of tunnel flight and want to learn more. If your opinion differs from this, I'd be (genuinely) interested in hearing your point of view :)

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