Mockingbird 0 #26 July 6, 2005 QuoteIf an AFF student has video of their jumps, I suppose they could show a new tunnel coach their videos. Would that help at all? Do most students get video? Do you mean it would help a tunnel coach if they saw a video of me making all my mistakes? I do happen to have such a video; it's shameful, I tell ya', shameful. But it doesn't compare to my last attempt at level 4 (this past Sunday) in which I spun so fast, my 'I' couldn't stop me and he got whalloped by one of my feet. He disappeared, I kept spinning like an old 78 record, so I pulled. THAT one was NOT on film... too bad. But... we both survived. (I don't know if I've gone totally nuts or what, but I actually thought that was kinda' fun... in a serious sort of way...)Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
heidihagen 0 #27 July 6, 2005 hiya c!Quote Oh, and we're much cheaper than Tunnelcoach.com tunnel isn't cheap. there's no arguement it issssss MUCH more efficient and way less annoying than repeating levels.[/end hijack???] QuoteQuoteIf an AFF student has video of their jumps, I suppose they could show a new tunnel coach their videos. Would that help at all? Do most students get video? Do you mean it would help a tunnel coach if they saw a video of me making all my mistakes? I do happen to have such a video; it's shameful, I tell ya' yep, i brought my tapes (and logbook) with me. christy frikken popped in the most recent vid right before we geared up just to get a more visual idea what i needed to work on. i wish more of my early jumps were NOT on film! i uploaded them anyway (all but one).. it's the link i sent you a while back.... pilotdave's website.www.skydivingmovies.com but yessss, yes yes a million times yessssssss! tunnel!!! forget what i said in pm's. speed things up this way instead! you will amaze yourself. you have nooooo idea how long i was stuck at jump 8(umm, level 1) thinking "why dooooo i want this anyway??" .. i tried to talk myself out of it, but it didn't work and it's a good thing too pvss fixed me pretty fast! i went out there for stability issues & wish i had gotten help sooner for several reasons. i didn't feel like i progressed a whole lot after the first session, but she said that's normal. the coaches are awesome!!! i haven't been to fl skyventure yet, and i'm not trying to egg this on, but they have excellent teaching techniques too that clicked with me. it's sooooo worth it!i didn't lose my mind, i sold it on ebay. .:need a container to fit 5'4", 110 lb. cypres ready & able to fit a 170 main (or slightly smaller):.[/ce Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
okalb 78 #28 July 6, 2005 I just wanted to add something else for you to think about. The tunnel absolutely rocks and I have no doubt that it will fix your problems. But there could be something else at work here as well. Some people react differently to different teaching styles. In no way am I putting down your instructor, but have you tried to go up with someone else? Over the years I have seen plenty of students that were having trouble on a level go up with someone else and pass on the first try. Even if you are perfectly happy with the instructor that you are jumping with, a "change of scenery" might be just what you need. Sometimes it is just performance anxiety that comes from trying to prove to THAT instructor that you can do it. Before you spend a ton of money flying out to somewhere to fly in the tunnel (although never a waste of money) you might want to consider a change at home. Just a thought. -OKTime flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #29 July 6, 2005 QuoteOver the years I have seen plenty of students that were having trouble on a level go up with someone else and pass on the first try. Even if you are perfectly happy with the instructor that you are jumping with, a "change of scenery" might be just what you need. Sometimes it is just performance anxiety that comes from trying to prove to THAT instructor that you can do it. Oren is a professional teacher....He knows about this. This is one angle I didn't think of....Try an AFF jump with a different "I"."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #30 July 6, 2005 QuoteQuoteYes that may be so, but you are not a world champion several times over and she has at least ten times more hours coaching in the tunnel than you do, Geeez relax already You also would not ask Rembrandt to show you how to use a paint roller. I think most coaches would be good for helping with AFF basics - and you ought to choose the right value tuition. Actually, the best coaches to fix AFF problems in the tunnel are AFF qualified people. People who only fly in the tunnel fly, well, like tunnel flyers. The intent when trying to fix problem skydiving students is to get them in a stable body position that is going to best help them in freefall. Likewise, an AFF instructor is generally going to fly and/or stand in the tunnel in a position where he/she is able to give proper hand and arm signals to work out their problems. I have found that most spinning problems can be fixed in just a few minutes of tunnel time. Ultimately, if the fix calls for an Instructor, then work with a real, rated Instructor. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Paige 0 #31 July 6, 2005 Quote Quote Oh, and we're much cheaper than Tunnelcoach.com tunnel isn't cheap. there's no arguement it issssss MUCH more efficient and way less annoying than repeating levels.[/end hijack???] Quote I think its priceless esp. at the stage of the game you two are in, I didn't repeat levels but I could imagine that it would be very frustrating It depends on how you compare it really, it's still cheaper per min. than a skydive. Tunnel as of now is ~$10.50 a minute to ~$12 a minute. As of October 1st 2005 it will be ~$13 a minute or ~$14 a minute (new rates) I still say its sooooo worth it. You can more than double your time in freefall in less than 24 hours (when you are starting off that is, it gets hard to double up after you've been flying for a while). Good luck to both of you with your flying, I wish you well Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate www.TunnelPinkMafia.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Paige 0 #32 July 6, 2005 QuoteQuoteYes that may be so, but you are not a world champion several times over and she has at least ten times more hours coaching in the tunnel than you do, Geeez relax already You also would not ask Rembrandt to show you how to use a paint roller. I think most coaches would be good for helping with AFF basics - and you ought to choose the right value tuition. So true. There are so many Rembrandt tunnel rats that get tourists flying, you are really never at a shortage for talent at SVO. They get paid to fix all kinds of problems all day long from people with little experience. I love the rats there and they have taken my flying far beyond what I imagined, esp. after my accident. Like Ron, I also think that there are some AFF instructors who also work in the tunnel who can help out in situations like this. You can pretty much pick as you please for your price and skill at SVO. The staff is the best and has been flying tourists and skydivers for a very long time.Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate www.TunnelPinkMafia.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NeedToJump 0 #33 July 6, 2005 QuoteActually, the best coaches to fix AFF problems in the tunnel are AFF qualified people. I disagree with this statement. Just because someone is AFF qualified does NOT mean that person is also qualified to teach anything in a wind tunnel. I've seen people who are AFF qualified try to coach in a wind tunnel and end up being a danger to both themself and the student.Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites chopchop 0 #34 July 6, 2005 I have a question for you guys that regularly integrate tunnel time with AFF as a tool to fix problems. We have a guy in Byron that had a beautiful Level 3 and then developed a slow turn on Level 4. It became a faster turn.. or spin on his second Level 4 so he went to the tunnel in Perris and got that fixed. He came home and did Level 4 again only it seems he has his heading corrected but now his feet are on his ass creating a major backslide.. This is a brand new problem. It also resulted in an unstable deployment. My question is this. When you are in the tunnel without that 30 pound student rig on your back, do you need less legs to stay in place? How could a guy stay in place in the tunnel and backslide like there's no tomorrow in the air? chopchop gotta go... Plaything needs a spanking.. Lotsa Pictures Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #35 July 6, 2005 QuoteMy question is this. When you are in the tunnel without that 30 pound student rig on your back, do you need less legs to stay in place? How could a guy stay in place in the tunnel and backslide like there's no tomorrow in the air? Good questions. I have flown with a rig in the tunnel (Although not 30 pounds of rig). The only difference I noticed was more pressure on my arms and chest and more of a head down attitude with less flexability. Weight on his upper body should not make him backslide, and I have never had a student go from tunnel to freefall with any problems. When you gave him a legs out, did he respond? How did his tunnel session go, did he have a good body position in the tunnel? It might just be a case of sensory overload making it so that he freaks out a bit."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites chopchop 0 #36 July 6, 2005 He went to the tunnel on his own and worked with the Perris tunnel rats. He said it went great. I was not on the dive but watched the video with him a few times. I am not sure what signals the JM gave him but on the jumps I have been with him on, he has been very aware and responsive to signals. chopchop gotta go... Plaything needs a spanking.. Lotsa Pictures Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NeedToJump 0 #37 July 6, 2005 QuoteHow could a guy stay in place in the tunnel and backslide like there's no tomorrow in the air? Because he has just jumped out of an airplane and is now falling through the air at 120 mph towards the Earth. Training in a wind tunnel is a great way to improve freefall skills, but it is not skydiving and does not simulate all the additional stresses and distractions of skydiving. From what I have seen, students who use wind tunnel training in conjunction with AFF *generally* progress through their AFF with less trouble. I've also seen students do well in the tunnel and then seem to forget everything from the tunnel when getting into the air. Everyone is different.Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Bodyflight.Net 0 #38 July 6, 2005 I backslid on my first AFF jump Generally.. tunnel rats use more arms than legs, yes. My AFF I explained how in the sky, our legs are our largest muscle.. and skydivers use them ALOT. This is sometimes an awkward transition, HOWEVER.. flying is flying, once you are proficient, the hand signals given by your instructor should be sufficient to correct any differences in your body position from the tunnel to the sky. It's a perspective thing.. AND no points of reference in the sky to tell you that you are backsliding, especially when your instructor(s) are doing their best to keep up with you.. I didn't notice it, anyway. I was stable, and totally flying, all the while though, I was flying backwards. A quick legs out signal corrected it and we were fine.. but I certainly didn't notice. until they said something. The rig made me overcompensate in the chest area I think, and yes, I hate to admit that Pink Suits, Blue Skies & Fast Air, Dawn Suiter PMTS Delegate Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkymonkeyONE 3 #39 July 6, 2005 QuoteQuoteActually, the best coaches to fix AFF problems in the tunnel are AFF qualified people. I disagree with this statement. Just because someone is AFF qualified does NOT mean that person is also qualified to teach anything in a wind tunnel. I've seen people who are AFF qualified try to coach in a wind tunnel and end up being a danger to both themself and the student. You misconstrued my statement, Ari. What I said was that I thought it best that a person get his freefall problems fixed by an AFF-qualified tunnel guy. I am not a "Skyventure authorized (TM) tunnel instructor", but I have trained over 100 people in the Fort Bragg wind tunnel and have over 250 hours in the cone. What I am primarilly is an AFF Instructor who just happens to know how to best exploit a wind tunnel when given the opportunity. My statement was in no way derogatory toward "Skyventure Certified (TM) tunnel instructors" or whatever the title might be at other-than-SV tunnels. What I can tell you is that there are tunnel rats out there who have other-than-optimal ways of fixing skydiving student's problems just to get them flying in the cone without banging off the walls. I just had a conversation last week with a moderator on these forums who was less than satisfied at his child's learning experience at a commercial tunnel (which I will not name). While there are phenomenal freefly tunnel flyers out there (you being one of them), that ability to fly one's own body does not neccessarily constitute an ability to best prepare a skydiving student to pass an AFF course. Ultimately, I think the best person to fix a skydiving student in the tunnel is a guy who uses the tunnel as that kind of a tool and also does a lot of "real" AFF; not the kind of person who generally runs around the walls and carves around on his head. Once again, not a dig on you at all; you are a great skydiver and tunnel flyer. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ltdiver 3 #40 July 7, 2005 QuoteQuoteActually, the best coaches to fix AFF problems in the tunnel are AFF qualified people. I disagree with this statement. Just because someone is AFF qualified does NOT mean that person is also qualified to teach anything in a wind tunnel. True. That is why Perris (for example) uses only tunnel trained AFFI's to work with their students in the tunnel. This not only allows the student to progress the way the school wants (body position, hand signals, etc) but also can instill confidence in the student when he's able to use the same instructor to transition into the sky later in the day. ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Shark 0 #41 July 7, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuoteActually, the best coaches to fix AFF problems in the tunnel are AFF qualified people. I disagree with this statement. Just because someone is AFF qualified does NOT mean that person is also qualified to teach anything in a wind tunnel. True. That is why Perris (for example) uses only tunnel trained AFFI's to work with their students in the tunnel. This not only allows the student to progress the way the school wants (body position, hand signals, etc) but also can instill confidence in the student when he's able to use the same instructor to transition into the sky later in the day. ltdiver As does Elsinore. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Mockingbird 0 #42 July 7, 2005 Howdy Heidi . (I crack myself up.) Well, I took your advice, and it's now official: Major announcement here: I will be at Perris next Thursday and Friday. Awesome things have been said about both Skyventure locations (Orlando & Perris), but my decision was based on the weather forecast for each place. I don't know if I'll have time to make a real jump while I'm out there, but the weather is kinda' important in that regard. This is turning into QUITE the adventure. I'm playing hookie from work and EVERYTHING! Wish you could go again, Heidi!Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Mockingbird 0 #43 July 7, 2005 QuoteFrom what I have seen, students who use wind tunnel training in conjunction with AFF *generally* progress through their AFF with less trouble. I've also seen students do well in the tunnel and then seem to forget everything from the tunnel when getting into the air. Everyone is different. OH GREAT; now you're scaring me. I guess this is why I want to jump before I leave Perris next week.Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #44 July 7, 2005 QuoteTrue. That is why Perris (for example) uses only tunnel trained AFFI's to work with their students in the tunnel. This not only allows the student to progress the way the school wants (body position, hand signals, etc) but also can instill confidence in the student when he's able to use the same instructor to transition into the sky later in the day. Skydive City has been sending "problem" students to the tunnel in Orlando since 1998. They use the standard "rat" and come back without any problems. For 7 years the rats have done a good job."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ltdiver 3 #45 July 8, 2005 QuoteQuoteTrue. That is why Perris (for example) uses only tunnel trained AFFI's to work with their students in the tunnel. This not only allows the student to progress the way the school wants (body position, hand signals, etc) but also can instill confidence in the student when he's able to use the same instructor to transition into the sky later in the day. Skydive City has been sending "problem" students to the tunnel in Orlando since 1998. They use the standard "rat" and come back without any problems. For 7 years the rats have done a good job. It's a matter of better and best... ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #46 July 8, 2005 QuoteIt's a matter of better and best... Yeah, and I think "Best" is the people who do it EVERYDAY for a living. I have seen AFF Instructors that can't even fly in a tunnel. SDC has been using the tunnel for 7 YEARS.....We have not had a problem with any student that used a rat."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ltdiver 3 #47 July 8, 2005 Quote Yeah, and I think "Best" is the people who do it EVERYDAY for a living. I agree. Yet, I've taken it a step further and stated that those who spend every day in the tunnel -and- are AFFI rated are the very best bet. We have several like this at Perris (and Shark is correct, they do at Elsinore as well). It's not -just- about flying the body. Its the whole shebang....saving yourself and landing too. With an AFFI you get the whole thing, plus the continuity with a brand new student feeling comfortable with dealing with one person's style. ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #48 July 8, 2005 QuoteIt's not -just- about flying the body. Its the whole shebang....saving yourself and landing See this is where we diverge....At the tunnel with a spinning student there is no need to talk about landing. While I can agree that an AFF I, that is a tunnel Instructor also, is BEST. Given the choice of just an AFF "I" or a tunnel rat...I think the tunnel rat is just as good, maybe better to teach basic body flight. Most tunnel rats I know can fly circles around most people. They also know tons more about teaching in the tunnel. On a side note, I have seen AFF "I's" with little to no knowledge if tunnels get in the tunnel at Bragg and fly right accross the cone and fall out the other side. Its really funny. I have also seen AFF "I's" from out of state try to come down to SVO and coach..... Tunnel coaching is not easy, and having a skydiving rating does not really help that much. I would not have a tunnel rat do an AFF jump over an AFF rated "I"...I also would not have an AFF "I" coach in the tunnel over a rat."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Shark 0 #49 July 8, 2005 The tunnel rats are good friends, superb fliers, and several are AFFIs. (SVP) I have total trust in them to fly with my AFF students, however I'm just over the hill and will go with them myself when I can. It's my job. Getting back to the original question of will it help a student pass Level 4? Probably, but it's only half the picture. If the student cannot fly a simple landing pattern under canopy and/or lands downwind or on top of a building, the student has not met ALL of the performance objectives in order to progress to the next level. I doubt many instructors would sign off on a student to solo whom couldn't fly a basic pattern, nor land without JM assistance. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Bodyflight.Net 0 #50 July 8, 2005 QuoteUltimately, I think the best person to fix a skydiving student in the tunnel is a guy who uses the tunnel as that kind of a tool and also does a lot of "real" AFF; not the kind of person who generally runs around the walls and carves around on his head. Chuck, Ron, or anyone who has experience with this... I'm trying to understand this part.. I really want to. What does the non-aff tunnel rat do differently, in regards to instruction, or maybe it's the progression... I mean, in your opinion, what would be the way to teach an AFF student who has come to the tunnel..but with the end desire to freefall 'better'. Perhaps I'm asking more then, what is your 'preferred' teaching style in this situation and how does that differ from the say 'general' learn to fly class at your local tunnel. I'm asking because we have had a recent influx of AFF students, and I'm wondering, as a result of this thread, what we're NOT teaching them, that we SHOULD be.. since we're not jumping with them, it does make a difference. Of course any instructor can come with their student & work with them here but that's obviously not something that happens too terribly often. Pink Suits, Blue Skies & Fast Air, Dawn Suiter PMTS Delegate Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 Next Page 2 of 5 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. 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Paige 0 #32 July 6, 2005 QuoteQuoteYes that may be so, but you are not a world champion several times over and she has at least ten times more hours coaching in the tunnel than you do, Geeez relax already You also would not ask Rembrandt to show you how to use a paint roller. I think most coaches would be good for helping with AFF basics - and you ought to choose the right value tuition. So true. There are so many Rembrandt tunnel rats that get tourists flying, you are really never at a shortage for talent at SVO. They get paid to fix all kinds of problems all day long from people with little experience. I love the rats there and they have taken my flying far beyond what I imagined, esp. after my accident. Like Ron, I also think that there are some AFF instructors who also work in the tunnel who can help out in situations like this. You can pretty much pick as you please for your price and skill at SVO. The staff is the best and has been flying tourists and skydivers for a very long time.Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate www.TunnelPinkMafia.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeedToJump 0 #33 July 6, 2005 QuoteActually, the best coaches to fix AFF problems in the tunnel are AFF qualified people. I disagree with this statement. Just because someone is AFF qualified does NOT mean that person is also qualified to teach anything in a wind tunnel. I've seen people who are AFF qualified try to coach in a wind tunnel and end up being a danger to both themself and the student.Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chopchop 0 #34 July 6, 2005 I have a question for you guys that regularly integrate tunnel time with AFF as a tool to fix problems. We have a guy in Byron that had a beautiful Level 3 and then developed a slow turn on Level 4. It became a faster turn.. or spin on his second Level 4 so he went to the tunnel in Perris and got that fixed. He came home and did Level 4 again only it seems he has his heading corrected but now his feet are on his ass creating a major backslide.. This is a brand new problem. It also resulted in an unstable deployment. My question is this. When you are in the tunnel without that 30 pound student rig on your back, do you need less legs to stay in place? How could a guy stay in place in the tunnel and backslide like there's no tomorrow in the air? chopchop gotta go... Plaything needs a spanking.. Lotsa Pictures Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #35 July 6, 2005 QuoteMy question is this. When you are in the tunnel without that 30 pound student rig on your back, do you need less legs to stay in place? How could a guy stay in place in the tunnel and backslide like there's no tomorrow in the air? Good questions. I have flown with a rig in the tunnel (Although not 30 pounds of rig). The only difference I noticed was more pressure on my arms and chest and more of a head down attitude with less flexability. Weight on his upper body should not make him backslide, and I have never had a student go from tunnel to freefall with any problems. When you gave him a legs out, did he respond? How did his tunnel session go, did he have a good body position in the tunnel? It might just be a case of sensory overload making it so that he freaks out a bit."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chopchop 0 #36 July 6, 2005 He went to the tunnel on his own and worked with the Perris tunnel rats. He said it went great. I was not on the dive but watched the video with him a few times. I am not sure what signals the JM gave him but on the jumps I have been with him on, he has been very aware and responsive to signals. chopchop gotta go... Plaything needs a spanking.. Lotsa Pictures Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeedToJump 0 #37 July 6, 2005 QuoteHow could a guy stay in place in the tunnel and backslide like there's no tomorrow in the air? Because he has just jumped out of an airplane and is now falling through the air at 120 mph towards the Earth. Training in a wind tunnel is a great way to improve freefall skills, but it is not skydiving and does not simulate all the additional stresses and distractions of skydiving. From what I have seen, students who use wind tunnel training in conjunction with AFF *generally* progress through their AFF with less trouble. I've also seen students do well in the tunnel and then seem to forget everything from the tunnel when getting into the air. Everyone is different.Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bodyflight.Net 0 #38 July 6, 2005 I backslid on my first AFF jump Generally.. tunnel rats use more arms than legs, yes. My AFF I explained how in the sky, our legs are our largest muscle.. and skydivers use them ALOT. This is sometimes an awkward transition, HOWEVER.. flying is flying, once you are proficient, the hand signals given by your instructor should be sufficient to correct any differences in your body position from the tunnel to the sky. It's a perspective thing.. AND no points of reference in the sky to tell you that you are backsliding, especially when your instructor(s) are doing their best to keep up with you.. I didn't notice it, anyway. I was stable, and totally flying, all the while though, I was flying backwards. A quick legs out signal corrected it and we were fine.. but I certainly didn't notice. until they said something. The rig made me overcompensate in the chest area I think, and yes, I hate to admit that Pink Suits, Blue Skies & Fast Air, Dawn Suiter PMTS Delegate Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #39 July 6, 2005 QuoteQuoteActually, the best coaches to fix AFF problems in the tunnel are AFF qualified people. I disagree with this statement. Just because someone is AFF qualified does NOT mean that person is also qualified to teach anything in a wind tunnel. I've seen people who are AFF qualified try to coach in a wind tunnel and end up being a danger to both themself and the student. You misconstrued my statement, Ari. What I said was that I thought it best that a person get his freefall problems fixed by an AFF-qualified tunnel guy. I am not a "Skyventure authorized (TM) tunnel instructor", but I have trained over 100 people in the Fort Bragg wind tunnel and have over 250 hours in the cone. What I am primarilly is an AFF Instructor who just happens to know how to best exploit a wind tunnel when given the opportunity. My statement was in no way derogatory toward "Skyventure Certified (TM) tunnel instructors" or whatever the title might be at other-than-SV tunnels. What I can tell you is that there are tunnel rats out there who have other-than-optimal ways of fixing skydiving student's problems just to get them flying in the cone without banging off the walls. I just had a conversation last week with a moderator on these forums who was less than satisfied at his child's learning experience at a commercial tunnel (which I will not name). While there are phenomenal freefly tunnel flyers out there (you being one of them), that ability to fly one's own body does not neccessarily constitute an ability to best prepare a skydiving student to pass an AFF course. Ultimately, I think the best person to fix a skydiving student in the tunnel is a guy who uses the tunnel as that kind of a tool and also does a lot of "real" AFF; not the kind of person who generally runs around the walls and carves around on his head. Once again, not a dig on you at all; you are a great skydiver and tunnel flyer. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ltdiver 3 #40 July 7, 2005 QuoteQuoteActually, the best coaches to fix AFF problems in the tunnel are AFF qualified people. I disagree with this statement. Just because someone is AFF qualified does NOT mean that person is also qualified to teach anything in a wind tunnel. True. That is why Perris (for example) uses only tunnel trained AFFI's to work with their students in the tunnel. This not only allows the student to progress the way the school wants (body position, hand signals, etc) but also can instill confidence in the student when he's able to use the same instructor to transition into the sky later in the day. ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shark 0 #41 July 7, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuoteActually, the best coaches to fix AFF problems in the tunnel are AFF qualified people. I disagree with this statement. Just because someone is AFF qualified does NOT mean that person is also qualified to teach anything in a wind tunnel. True. That is why Perris (for example) uses only tunnel trained AFFI's to work with their students in the tunnel. This not only allows the student to progress the way the school wants (body position, hand signals, etc) but also can instill confidence in the student when he's able to use the same instructor to transition into the sky later in the day. ltdiver As does Elsinore. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mockingbird 0 #42 July 7, 2005 Howdy Heidi . (I crack myself up.) Well, I took your advice, and it's now official: Major announcement here: I will be at Perris next Thursday and Friday. Awesome things have been said about both Skyventure locations (Orlando & Perris), but my decision was based on the weather forecast for each place. I don't know if I'll have time to make a real jump while I'm out there, but the weather is kinda' important in that regard. This is turning into QUITE the adventure. I'm playing hookie from work and EVERYTHING! Wish you could go again, Heidi!Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mockingbird 0 #43 July 7, 2005 QuoteFrom what I have seen, students who use wind tunnel training in conjunction with AFF *generally* progress through their AFF with less trouble. I've also seen students do well in the tunnel and then seem to forget everything from the tunnel when getting into the air. Everyone is different. OH GREAT; now you're scaring me. I guess this is why I want to jump before I leave Perris next week.Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #44 July 7, 2005 QuoteTrue. That is why Perris (for example) uses only tunnel trained AFFI's to work with their students in the tunnel. This not only allows the student to progress the way the school wants (body position, hand signals, etc) but also can instill confidence in the student when he's able to use the same instructor to transition into the sky later in the day. Skydive City has been sending "problem" students to the tunnel in Orlando since 1998. They use the standard "rat" and come back without any problems. For 7 years the rats have done a good job."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ltdiver 3 #45 July 8, 2005 QuoteQuoteTrue. That is why Perris (for example) uses only tunnel trained AFFI's to work with their students in the tunnel. This not only allows the student to progress the way the school wants (body position, hand signals, etc) but also can instill confidence in the student when he's able to use the same instructor to transition into the sky later in the day. Skydive City has been sending "problem" students to the tunnel in Orlando since 1998. They use the standard "rat" and come back without any problems. For 7 years the rats have done a good job. It's a matter of better and best... ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #46 July 8, 2005 QuoteIt's a matter of better and best... Yeah, and I think "Best" is the people who do it EVERYDAY for a living. I have seen AFF Instructors that can't even fly in a tunnel. SDC has been using the tunnel for 7 YEARS.....We have not had a problem with any student that used a rat."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ltdiver 3 #47 July 8, 2005 Quote Yeah, and I think "Best" is the people who do it EVERYDAY for a living. I agree. Yet, I've taken it a step further and stated that those who spend every day in the tunnel -and- are AFFI rated are the very best bet. We have several like this at Perris (and Shark is correct, they do at Elsinore as well). It's not -just- about flying the body. Its the whole shebang....saving yourself and landing too. With an AFFI you get the whole thing, plus the continuity with a brand new student feeling comfortable with dealing with one person's style. ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #48 July 8, 2005 QuoteIt's not -just- about flying the body. Its the whole shebang....saving yourself and landing See this is where we diverge....At the tunnel with a spinning student there is no need to talk about landing. While I can agree that an AFF I, that is a tunnel Instructor also, is BEST. Given the choice of just an AFF "I" or a tunnel rat...I think the tunnel rat is just as good, maybe better to teach basic body flight. Most tunnel rats I know can fly circles around most people. They also know tons more about teaching in the tunnel. On a side note, I have seen AFF "I's" with little to no knowledge if tunnels get in the tunnel at Bragg and fly right accross the cone and fall out the other side. Its really funny. I have also seen AFF "I's" from out of state try to come down to SVO and coach..... Tunnel coaching is not easy, and having a skydiving rating does not really help that much. I would not have a tunnel rat do an AFF jump over an AFF rated "I"...I also would not have an AFF "I" coach in the tunnel over a rat."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shark 0 #49 July 8, 2005 The tunnel rats are good friends, superb fliers, and several are AFFIs. (SVP) I have total trust in them to fly with my AFF students, however I'm just over the hill and will go with them myself when I can. It's my job. Getting back to the original question of will it help a student pass Level 4? Probably, but it's only half the picture. If the student cannot fly a simple landing pattern under canopy and/or lands downwind or on top of a building, the student has not met ALL of the performance objectives in order to progress to the next level. I doubt many instructors would sign off on a student to solo whom couldn't fly a basic pattern, nor land without JM assistance. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bodyflight.Net 0 #50 July 8, 2005 QuoteUltimately, I think the best person to fix a skydiving student in the tunnel is a guy who uses the tunnel as that kind of a tool and also does a lot of "real" AFF; not the kind of person who generally runs around the walls and carves around on his head. Chuck, Ron, or anyone who has experience with this... I'm trying to understand this part.. I really want to. What does the non-aff tunnel rat do differently, in regards to instruction, or maybe it's the progression... I mean, in your opinion, what would be the way to teach an AFF student who has come to the tunnel..but with the end desire to freefall 'better'. Perhaps I'm asking more then, what is your 'preferred' teaching style in this situation and how does that differ from the say 'general' learn to fly class at your local tunnel. I'm asking because we have had a recent influx of AFF students, and I'm wondering, as a result of this thread, what we're NOT teaching them, that we SHOULD be.. since we're not jumping with them, it does make a difference. Of course any instructor can come with their student & work with them here but that's obviously not something that happens too terribly often. Pink Suits, Blue Skies & Fast Air, Dawn Suiter PMTS Delegate Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
