Ron 7 #51 July 8, 2005 QuoteChuck, Ron, or anyone who has experience with this... I'm trying to understand this part.. I really want to. What does the non-aff tunnel rat do differently, in regards to instruction, or maybe it's the progression... Well I for one think the rats do just as good, and are better suited to teach in the tunnel. One thing is rats seem to be better at "talking" to the student in the tunnel than a regular AFF guy. Also, I know TONS of AFF folks that can't stand in the tunnel. I don't see any benefit to an AFF guy teaching (one who is good in the tunnel) other than the warm fuzzy feeling of having the same instructor. The only negative I can think of is at times the rats try to teach advanced concepts to people who are not ready for them....Like the Mantis, knee turns..ect. And this normally only happens when the student asks for it. The rat does not know any better so they try and teach them. If the student tells the rat that they are having problems with AFF that does not seem to be an issue. My opinion anyway....I think the rats do just fine. Its not like we are asking the rat to teach pulling, malfunctions, or canopy control."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #52 July 8, 2005 Ultimately, Dawn, it's just the way that I fly a student in the tunnel. Depending on the guy's weight I am either standing beside him on the net with the exact same grip I am going to have on him in freefall (a legstrap and an arm until I "free-arm" him) and I am going to release him in the same sequence after giving him the same hand and arm signals during his COA as I would in freefall. On release, I am going to stay standing right there, or fly with him in the same position I would in freefall, at least initially. This way he has the same instructor references in the tunnel as he will in freefall. I am going to maintain the exact same proximity to the student in the tunnel as I do in freefall, too. I am going to use hand and arm signals straight out of the SIM. I am not going to walk over and just start manipulating him while pointing and shaking my head at him. I am going to, as a very-current AFFI, be able to know when to give "check arms" as opposed to "legs out". If they start spinning or flip on their back I am going to stop them, roll them back over, or whatever else exactly like I would do it in freefall. Stuff like that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #53 July 8, 2005 QuoteIts not like we are asking the rat to teach pulling, malfunctions, On the contrary, Ron. You know that's exactly what we have them do at Fort Bragg. I neglected to put that in the post I just responded to Dawn in. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bodyflight.Net 0 #54 July 8, 2005 So ultimately you focus on practicing their jump exactly as they will do it in the sky... How long do you find is it before your able to release them in the tunnel, on average, and have them stay with you.. I guess I'm asking..do your students learn stability & control this way too.. without focusing on how to control it, but just by being exposed to it through the 'practice jump' tunnel time? We usually (special considerations aside) start students with learning to enter the air, learning to maintain heading & altitude, learning to relax & not fight the air. From there we go into flying bigger and then smaller, with turns, and so on I see a glaring difference in the techniques for sure, is this what you mean RON by teaching too much, or advanced concepts? Should we be skipping the how to fly part, and focus on the learn to fall stable with the AFF students, actually going through a practice jump and practice pulls too? We of course want to provide a usefull service to the local dz's.. I know we can teach people to fly, but perhaps we've been overlooking something important with the AFF students, who have a different ultimate goal. Your input is greatly appreciated you know Pink Suits, Blue Skies & Fast Air, Dawn Suiter PMTS Delegate Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #55 July 8, 2005 If you are getting a guy ready for, or fixing a guy already in an AFF course then yes, you need to be teaching pull altitude recognition, wave-off, and pull sequence. It does not matter if a guy can fall stable if he goes unstable the second he reaches behind his back with his right hand. At Fort Bragg, unless time is really short, I am generally going to start a guy off on a tether. He might only be on it for one minute, but it will keep him in one confined area if he starts "ping-ponging" around. You guys in Maggie Valley could absolutely use the same type of system as you have no walls. Once we get a guy stable on the tether and then off the tether (with AFF grips), we then ease into tasks exactly like we would do it on a real training skydive. -stable and in a good, relaxed body position without potato-chipping or turning (both grips, then free-arm, then fully released. Heading maintenance. Giving corrective AFF signals when in the cone. Outside the cone we use a dry erase board to work out problems and then dirt dive on the side until time go get back in. In the Bragg tunnel we kneel the student on the pads facing the air and "exit" them into the cone from either side (at first, just like out of a plane). -90 degree turns left and right stopping on heading -360 degree turns stopping on heading -falrate adjustments faster and slower -forward and backward movement (to teach relativity maintenance on that axis) -Once they can do that, we start teaching them the pull sequence, giving them hand and arm signals to indicate altitude countdown to "pull" altitude. We drill that, generally in a harness (when available), until they can do it repeatedly while maintaining heading and stability on all axis. We also drill EP's in the tunnel. -Ultimately, we enter the cone and perform full AFF skydives (up to Cat D2). We don't teach barrel rolls and flips in the Bragg Tunnel. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bodyflight.Net 0 #56 July 8, 2005 I'm still wondering how long it takes the average person to get that far with you, we're getting folks who only want to spend 15 minutes in the air, are you able to accomplish this much, on average, in such a short time? We have been heavily discussing different ways to approach the AFF students that come in, as this has been extremely insightful. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ojibwe 0 #57 July 8, 2005 the tunnel is great enjoyMB 3864 Urantia Book and RUSH fan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Shark 0 #58 July 8, 2005 When I'm in the tube with a student, I like to think that the tunnel instructor (rat) and I are a team. I can concentrate more on correcting the students body position while they are in there for safety. In fact, I think the guy or girl in the booth is an integral part of the team as well. I've had a student who was ground bound because of weather. We did the FJC, then decided after a week to do the 15 minutes in the tunnel. After the 2nd session he was able to have great hover control and do great 360s while stopping on heading. These were 2.5 minute sessions. When we finally jumped he was so stable the level 2 was practically a release dive. Other than the exits he was flying very, very well. I was concerned with his altitude awareness, but that wasn't an issue as I have him do "altimeter checks" after each manuever or every few seconds in the tube. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites VanillaSkyGirl 6 #59 July 8, 2005 QuoteWhen I'm in the tube with a student, I like to think that the tunnel instructor (rat) and I are a team. I can concentrate more on correcting the students body position while they are in there for safety. In fact, I think the guy or girl in the booth is an integral part of the team as well. That is so wonderful! I've noticed exactly what you are describing the times that I've seen AFF instructors in Perris' tunnel with students. It's AFF Instructors, the Skyventure Tunnel Instructor and the wind control person working as a team. Actually, that set-up is true of any time that a coach is in there with anyone. Excellent team work, guys! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Bodyflight.Net 0 #60 July 8, 2005 We also welcome the coaches/instructors/aff/jm's in, you can stand right next to the air, experienced tunnel flyer or not, and work with your student, while our coach is present for saftey & guidance. However, here at least, we have only had 1 coach (tunnel trained too) come with a student, but he didn't want participate at all with the actual tunnel training. He did all the pre-training before their visit, but once the student got here, he just simply stepped aside. Altimeter checks are a good idea, we should get one of those that counts down even while your on the ground..one of my recurrency jm's made me use one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkymonkeyONE 3 #61 July 8, 2005 Actual time in the cone? maybe fifteen minutes per student. Edited to add that that when we used to get time at the sport parachute club, it was generally for three hours. We would split that time between first jump students, people still in the student progression, and instructor drills. Once again, each student got around fifteen minutes in the cone, but we would keep "problem children" in there till we fixed them. When we would get the tunnel at lunch, it would be for around an hour and a half per day. When we got it as a unit we would get it for the entire day, sometimes several days. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Bodyflight.Net 0 #62 July 8, 2005 Well.. that's pretty good time then, if they (first timers) are doing 360s & stopping on heading that quickly (avg. 15 min), that's alot of control do you do your sessions with rigs on too...? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites heidihagen 0 #63 July 9, 2005 hi c!awesome! you're gonna have a great time..and learn a TON- i know it! the pv tunnel coaches are wonderful.. they can fix ya QuoteQuoteFrom what I have seen, students who use wind tunnel training in conjunction with AFF *generally* progress through their AFF with less trouble. I've also seen students do well in the tunnel and then seem to forget everything from the tunnel when getting into the air. Everyone is different. OH GREAT; now you're scaring me. I guess this is why I want to jump before I leave Perris next week. i'm not sure what that guys post was about, but i wouldn't let it worry ya. i don't know who "the best" is... or how you would judge something like that, but they are amazing flyers and know how to explain things and make them "click" .. if that makes sense. ....probably not because i don't know how to "explain things" i've heard nothing but positive things about wind tunnels as an aid. i'm just a student, but i've "been there" in the worst way... if you ask any of my instructors (or previous affi's)---"helped" is an understatement. i still needed work once i got back of course, but it helped my instructors immensely. i was kind of an airborne disaster also, i wanted to make a jump while out there... and did! i wanted to make sure the tunnel was working... not to mention, they have a fantastic view! it was my first time to exit with two instructors (i started with the stp program)... at home i was stuck on stp2 (turns), so i did an aff3. i wasn't familiar with COA and their signals were different from my old dz. it seemed like a lot to juggle, and i didn't pass but i would do it again in a heartbeat. plus i did end up going with another session or two before i went home... since you've already been released, you'll probably get more out of the trip than i did. i was like a piece of wood bouncing off the walls (for thye first few minutes anyway!) ... then once i got home, i switched dz's/started over, and was able to finish aff in 5 jumps. i had 45 minutes/split into 3 sessions. the first day wore me OUT! sore sore muscles... so make sure you stretch. you don't feel it until you leave (at least i didn't). also, ask for video! it's not too pricey and worth it! plus you can reuse the same tape later that day/the next day after you review. hehehe!!! i know what you mean! when i bought my ticket, i was thinking "this is so unlike me... it's not even a holiday!!!" watch out---i haven't stopped! i abused the sick day thing on every pretty day last winter and lost my other job (eh, awful hours anyway)! you're going to have a BLAST though. i bet the weather will be PERRfect... and even if it's not.. hey, you have a wind tunnel on sight! how cool is that?? verrrrry!!! QuoteHowdy Heidi . (I crack myself up.) Well, I took your advice, and it's now official: Major announcement here: I will be at Perris next Thursday and Friday. Awesome things have been said about both Skyventure locations (Orlando & Perris), but my decision was based on the weather forecast for each place. I don't know if I'll have time to make a real jump while I'm out there, but the weather is kinda' important in that regard. This is turning into QUITE the adventure. I'm playing hookie from work and EVERYTHING! Wish you could go again, Heidi!i didn't lose my mind, i sold it on ebay. .:need a container to fit 5'4", 110 lb. cypres ready & able to fit a 170 main (or slightly smaller):.[/ce Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Mockingbird 0 #64 July 9, 2005 QuoteGetting back to the original question of will it help a student pass Level 4? Probably, but it's only half the picture. If the student cannot fly a simple landing pattern under canopy and/or lands downwind or on top of a building, the student has not met ALL of the performance objectives in order to progress to the next level. I doubt many instructors would sign off on a student to solo whom couldn't fly a basic pattern, nor land without JM assistance. Hi, Shark. I was the original question-er, and my only problem so far has been freefall: not being able to maintain stability. So far I've always gotten good comments about my canopy control. As I mentioned to someone else, my problems seem to be: 1) tension and 2) turning, although last week the turning quickly became spinning--FAST. In fact, I pulled in a spin because my instructor was not able to stop me.Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tdog 0 #65 July 9, 2005 Quick note, Mockingbird... You have started an interesting debate on this subject... This thread is quickly moving to having the most replies out of any windtunnel thread. 65 or something now, the record thread is in the 70's... It seems there is a lot of interesting feedback on using tunnels for AFF type coaching. Some people think AFF hand signals and AFF diveflows are the way to go... Others think flying in the tunnel is about learning how to fly and the hand signals don't really need to be AFF specific... Great debate... I guess my two cents... I rather take a tunnel coach in the tunnel (who has hundreds of hours coaching in the tunnel) over an AFF rated instructor who rarely tunnels... After seeing my tunnel coaches use the technology of the tunnel to train, like having me fly 6" off the net as they tell the operator to change the speed of the wind to see if I can adjust to unknown changes without warning, or standing on the net and slowly “manipulating” my body into the perfect shape then having me hold it for a minute or two - I see there are a lot of "tricks" that can be used in the tunnel that cannot be used in the sky... Tunnel coaches know these tricks for the tunnel as AFF Is know the tricks for the sky… So, what I am saying is… If my best friend needed help getting thru AFF, specifically stability and control of the body – and a tunnel was an option, I would NOT ask, “is your tunnel coach an AFF rated instructor” but instead I would ask, “how many newbies has your coach taught in the tunnel?” But, I might be completely wrong, so let the debate continue… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Bodyflight.Net 0 #66 July 9, 2005 QuoteThis thread is quickly moving to having the most replies out of any windtunnel thread. 65 or something now, the record thread is in the 70's... Well.. we gotta make that happen!! TDog, thanks for your clarity, I am glad to know your views, they helped to brighten my day just a bit For us, this thread has been wonderful.. I'm glad the original poster is now going to get some tunnel time, hopefully they'll come back and let us all know how it went! We are certainly going to make another 'scenario' available to our students as a result of this thread. We are going to buy a countdown altimeter, and offer our 'harness' (straps like a rig) to all AFF students.. this should help immediately with more familiar grips & placing our coaches on the 'main' side of the student, as well as altimeter checks and might even make timing flights easier. Our Tunnel Rigs are still in development with the manufacturer, when we have those it'll be even nicer & more realistic. We will also always make available our traditional methods which have worked well for John for 20+ years too.. which include just the learn to fly part, because then the rest is cake, when your a profficient flyer already. We are usually privy to at least a conversation with the AFFI who sends the students our way.. these choices ought to help us use the best method for each student, depending on their end goals. So thanks everyone!!Pink Suits, Blue Skies & Fast Air, Dawn Suiter PMTS Delegate Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Mockingbird 0 #67 July 9, 2005 By the way, I made the announcement a couple of days ago that I would be at Perris NEXT weekend for this big adventure, but it turns out now that it will be the following weekend--- so everyone (including myself!) will have to wait 2 more weeks to find out if I am "cured." Since I can't jump this weekend or next, I'm concentrating on my "Mental Training for Skydiving and Life" book by John J. DeRosalia...Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Shark 0 #68 July 10, 2005 I understand what you are getting at, but do you really believe that AFFIs at both Perris and Elsinore rarely tunnel? I was in the tube with Skylord last night. AC had a couple after me, while Marie (DippyMoo) took a student for an early morning skyventure. Edited: I can understand if your DZ is not in proximity to a VWT, so an option would be to use tunnel coaches. Our students know that the VWT is a part of the learning syllabus. We often recommend tunnel time whether the student is having issues or not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tdog 0 #69 July 10, 2005 QuoteI understand what you are getting at, but do you really believe that AFFIs at both Perris and Elsinore rarely tunnel? I was in the tube with Skylord last night. AC had a couple after me, while Marie (DippyMoo) took a student for an early morning skyventure. Exactly... If the tunnel coach happens to be an AFF I - then ok... But, it would not be a prerequisite for me, in my opinion... Actually, I would prefer someone who is an expert RW coach over a AFF I (if both, even better), just as long as they had experience building the skills from the ground up, for a total newbie... That is my point... But, Shark, I understand Perris has great AFF instructors, so I am in agreement... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites VanillaSkyGirl 6 #70 July 10, 2005 QuoteBut, Shark, I understand Perris has great AFF instructors, so I am in agreement... Shark (Mark), Marie and AC are all from Elsinore. Both DZs have great AFF Is and great RW or freefly coaches alike. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Shark 0 #71 July 11, 2005 QuoteQuoteBut, Shark, I understand Perris has great AFF instructors, so I am in agreement... Shark (Mark), Marie and AC are all from Elsinore. Both DZs have great AFF Is and great RW or freefly coaches alike. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #72 July 11, 2005 QuoteExactly... If the tunnel coach happens to be an AFF I - then ok... But, it would not be a prerequisite for me, in my opinion... Actually, I would prefer someone who is an expert RW coach over a AFF I (if both, even better), just as long as they had experience building the skills from the ground up, for a total newbie... That is my point... Ah, Tdog gets it."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites arlo 0 #73 July 11, 2005 i have seen several AFF-Is (and i use that term loosely) who couldn't fly their asses our of a paper sack bring students in the tunnel (SVO) and damn near take them out (by burbling, colliding, etc). i even asked one from the maryland area if he thought he was a good instructor in the tunnel and he said "absolutely!" f-ing ridiculous. for those AFF-Is that frequent the tunnel and are good tunnel flyers, that's great! you get to build a rapiore with the student both on and off the dz (so to speak). but if someone tries to tell me any AFF-I would be best at teaching in the tunnel i'll call bullshit right away. i saw a lot of that while at SVO...a few years worth and the ones i saw that sucked might have been the world's best AFF-Is (which i HIGHLY doubt) but they put their students closer to harms way in the tunnel than the students did for themselves. the tunnel instructors can (and do) teach most people basic body flight and do a damn good job of it. they're not trying to teach them to be world champs...they're teaching the students how to fly stable and do BASIC moves. for instructors keeping students in the tunnel for more than 1 minute at a time: do you find that this decreases their altitude awareness because their internal clock (that's now being created) fakes them into expecting longer freefall times due to these extended "freefall" times in the tunnel? i've talked to alot of guys that started skydiving in conjunction with tunnel flying and several thought they had more time than they actually did during the skydives. just curious if you consider this to be a potential issue. blues, arlo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #74 July 11, 2005 Quotebut if someone tries to tell me any AFF-I would be best at teaching in the tunnel i'll call bullshit right away I agree.....But for ONCE I was trying to be PC....Oh well Several of the tunnel rats tell me that they don't like it when an AFF "I" that is not tunnel proficent brings students to the tunnel.....It doubles their workload, and like you, I have seen some really scary "I's" trying to work in the tunnel. The tunnel is not like a skydive. It takes time to develop a trust with the rats, and it takes time to learn the tricks of teaching in a tunnel. Quotefor instructors keeping students in the tunnel for more than 1 minute at a time: do you find that this decreases their altitude awareness because their internal clock (that's now being created) fakes them into expecting longer freefall times due to these extended "freefall" times in the tunnel? Not really. When you look at the "average" student who does 10 min of tunnel to fix a problem, or does 10 min as part of a program....They don't tend to get used to the extended freefall. I also make sure that they realize that a skydive is shorter. Now your buddies who did a lot of tunnel, or a rat that then learns to jump I have been told that it is weird for them."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #75 July 11, 2005 AFF - I vs experienced rat. This is nuts, people. We're only talking basic stability here. Let the tunnel flying expert do the teaching in the tunnel. Let the AFFI do the training in the real air. It's about tunnel qualifications, not AFF qualifications. More power to the instructor with both, but they should do it because of the tunnel experience, not the other. If you want to bring the instructor into it, then get a list from the instructor of the skills they believe are needed for the student and the rat can use that for an effective lesson goal/plan. That way the student gets a targetted lesson not biased by what "the student thinks" they need, but by what they 'really' need. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 Next Page 3 of 5 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
ojibwe 0 #57 July 8, 2005 the tunnel is great enjoyMB 3864 Urantia Book and RUSH fan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shark 0 #58 July 8, 2005 When I'm in the tube with a student, I like to think that the tunnel instructor (rat) and I are a team. I can concentrate more on correcting the students body position while they are in there for safety. In fact, I think the guy or girl in the booth is an integral part of the team as well. I've had a student who was ground bound because of weather. We did the FJC, then decided after a week to do the 15 minutes in the tunnel. After the 2nd session he was able to have great hover control and do great 360s while stopping on heading. These were 2.5 minute sessions. When we finally jumped he was so stable the level 2 was practically a release dive. Other than the exits he was flying very, very well. I was concerned with his altitude awareness, but that wasn't an issue as I have him do "altimeter checks" after each manuever or every few seconds in the tube. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VanillaSkyGirl 6 #59 July 8, 2005 QuoteWhen I'm in the tube with a student, I like to think that the tunnel instructor (rat) and I are a team. I can concentrate more on correcting the students body position while they are in there for safety. In fact, I think the guy or girl in the booth is an integral part of the team as well. That is so wonderful! I've noticed exactly what you are describing the times that I've seen AFF instructors in Perris' tunnel with students. It's AFF Instructors, the Skyventure Tunnel Instructor and the wind control person working as a team. Actually, that set-up is true of any time that a coach is in there with anyone. Excellent team work, guys! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bodyflight.Net 0 #60 July 8, 2005 We also welcome the coaches/instructors/aff/jm's in, you can stand right next to the air, experienced tunnel flyer or not, and work with your student, while our coach is present for saftey & guidance. However, here at least, we have only had 1 coach (tunnel trained too) come with a student, but he didn't want participate at all with the actual tunnel training. He did all the pre-training before their visit, but once the student got here, he just simply stepped aside. Altimeter checks are a good idea, we should get one of those that counts down even while your on the ground..one of my recurrency jm's made me use one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkymonkeyONE 3 #61 July 8, 2005 Actual time in the cone? maybe fifteen minutes per student. Edited to add that that when we used to get time at the sport parachute club, it was generally for three hours. We would split that time between first jump students, people still in the student progression, and instructor drills. Once again, each student got around fifteen minutes in the cone, but we would keep "problem children" in there till we fixed them. When we would get the tunnel at lunch, it would be for around an hour and a half per day. When we got it as a unit we would get it for the entire day, sometimes several days. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Bodyflight.Net 0 #62 July 8, 2005 Well.. that's pretty good time then, if they (first timers) are doing 360s & stopping on heading that quickly (avg. 15 min), that's alot of control do you do your sessions with rigs on too...? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites heidihagen 0 #63 July 9, 2005 hi c!awesome! you're gonna have a great time..and learn a TON- i know it! the pv tunnel coaches are wonderful.. they can fix ya QuoteQuoteFrom what I have seen, students who use wind tunnel training in conjunction with AFF *generally* progress through their AFF with less trouble. I've also seen students do well in the tunnel and then seem to forget everything from the tunnel when getting into the air. Everyone is different. OH GREAT; now you're scaring me. I guess this is why I want to jump before I leave Perris next week. i'm not sure what that guys post was about, but i wouldn't let it worry ya. i don't know who "the best" is... or how you would judge something like that, but they are amazing flyers and know how to explain things and make them "click" .. if that makes sense. ....probably not because i don't know how to "explain things" i've heard nothing but positive things about wind tunnels as an aid. i'm just a student, but i've "been there" in the worst way... if you ask any of my instructors (or previous affi's)---"helped" is an understatement. i still needed work once i got back of course, but it helped my instructors immensely. i was kind of an airborne disaster also, i wanted to make a jump while out there... and did! i wanted to make sure the tunnel was working... not to mention, they have a fantastic view! it was my first time to exit with two instructors (i started with the stp program)... at home i was stuck on stp2 (turns), so i did an aff3. i wasn't familiar with COA and their signals were different from my old dz. it seemed like a lot to juggle, and i didn't pass but i would do it again in a heartbeat. plus i did end up going with another session or two before i went home... since you've already been released, you'll probably get more out of the trip than i did. i was like a piece of wood bouncing off the walls (for thye first few minutes anyway!) ... then once i got home, i switched dz's/started over, and was able to finish aff in 5 jumps. i had 45 minutes/split into 3 sessions. the first day wore me OUT! sore sore muscles... so make sure you stretch. you don't feel it until you leave (at least i didn't). also, ask for video! it's not too pricey and worth it! plus you can reuse the same tape later that day/the next day after you review. hehehe!!! i know what you mean! when i bought my ticket, i was thinking "this is so unlike me... it's not even a holiday!!!" watch out---i haven't stopped! i abused the sick day thing on every pretty day last winter and lost my other job (eh, awful hours anyway)! you're going to have a BLAST though. i bet the weather will be PERRfect... and even if it's not.. hey, you have a wind tunnel on sight! how cool is that?? verrrrry!!! QuoteHowdy Heidi . (I crack myself up.) Well, I took your advice, and it's now official: Major announcement here: I will be at Perris next Thursday and Friday. Awesome things have been said about both Skyventure locations (Orlando & Perris), but my decision was based on the weather forecast for each place. I don't know if I'll have time to make a real jump while I'm out there, but the weather is kinda' important in that regard. This is turning into QUITE the adventure. I'm playing hookie from work and EVERYTHING! Wish you could go again, Heidi!i didn't lose my mind, i sold it on ebay. .:need a container to fit 5'4", 110 lb. cypres ready & able to fit a 170 main (or slightly smaller):.[/ce Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Mockingbird 0 #64 July 9, 2005 QuoteGetting back to the original question of will it help a student pass Level 4? Probably, but it's only half the picture. If the student cannot fly a simple landing pattern under canopy and/or lands downwind or on top of a building, the student has not met ALL of the performance objectives in order to progress to the next level. I doubt many instructors would sign off on a student to solo whom couldn't fly a basic pattern, nor land without JM assistance. Hi, Shark. I was the original question-er, and my only problem so far has been freefall: not being able to maintain stability. So far I've always gotten good comments about my canopy control. As I mentioned to someone else, my problems seem to be: 1) tension and 2) turning, although last week the turning quickly became spinning--FAST. In fact, I pulled in a spin because my instructor was not able to stop me.Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tdog 0 #65 July 9, 2005 Quick note, Mockingbird... You have started an interesting debate on this subject... This thread is quickly moving to having the most replies out of any windtunnel thread. 65 or something now, the record thread is in the 70's... It seems there is a lot of interesting feedback on using tunnels for AFF type coaching. Some people think AFF hand signals and AFF diveflows are the way to go... Others think flying in the tunnel is about learning how to fly and the hand signals don't really need to be AFF specific... Great debate... I guess my two cents... I rather take a tunnel coach in the tunnel (who has hundreds of hours coaching in the tunnel) over an AFF rated instructor who rarely tunnels... After seeing my tunnel coaches use the technology of the tunnel to train, like having me fly 6" off the net as they tell the operator to change the speed of the wind to see if I can adjust to unknown changes without warning, or standing on the net and slowly “manipulating” my body into the perfect shape then having me hold it for a minute or two - I see there are a lot of "tricks" that can be used in the tunnel that cannot be used in the sky... Tunnel coaches know these tricks for the tunnel as AFF Is know the tricks for the sky… So, what I am saying is… If my best friend needed help getting thru AFF, specifically stability and control of the body – and a tunnel was an option, I would NOT ask, “is your tunnel coach an AFF rated instructor” but instead I would ask, “how many newbies has your coach taught in the tunnel?” But, I might be completely wrong, so let the debate continue… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Bodyflight.Net 0 #66 July 9, 2005 QuoteThis thread is quickly moving to having the most replies out of any windtunnel thread. 65 or something now, the record thread is in the 70's... Well.. we gotta make that happen!! TDog, thanks for your clarity, I am glad to know your views, they helped to brighten my day just a bit For us, this thread has been wonderful.. I'm glad the original poster is now going to get some tunnel time, hopefully they'll come back and let us all know how it went! We are certainly going to make another 'scenario' available to our students as a result of this thread. We are going to buy a countdown altimeter, and offer our 'harness' (straps like a rig) to all AFF students.. this should help immediately with more familiar grips & placing our coaches on the 'main' side of the student, as well as altimeter checks and might even make timing flights easier. Our Tunnel Rigs are still in development with the manufacturer, when we have those it'll be even nicer & more realistic. We will also always make available our traditional methods which have worked well for John for 20+ years too.. which include just the learn to fly part, because then the rest is cake, when your a profficient flyer already. We are usually privy to at least a conversation with the AFFI who sends the students our way.. these choices ought to help us use the best method for each student, depending on their end goals. So thanks everyone!!Pink Suits, Blue Skies & Fast Air, Dawn Suiter PMTS Delegate Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Mockingbird 0 #67 July 9, 2005 By the way, I made the announcement a couple of days ago that I would be at Perris NEXT weekend for this big adventure, but it turns out now that it will be the following weekend--- so everyone (including myself!) will have to wait 2 more weeks to find out if I am "cured." Since I can't jump this weekend or next, I'm concentrating on my "Mental Training for Skydiving and Life" book by John J. DeRosalia...Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Shark 0 #68 July 10, 2005 I understand what you are getting at, but do you really believe that AFFIs at both Perris and Elsinore rarely tunnel? I was in the tube with Skylord last night. AC had a couple after me, while Marie (DippyMoo) took a student for an early morning skyventure. Edited: I can understand if your DZ is not in proximity to a VWT, so an option would be to use tunnel coaches. Our students know that the VWT is a part of the learning syllabus. We often recommend tunnel time whether the student is having issues or not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tdog 0 #69 July 10, 2005 QuoteI understand what you are getting at, but do you really believe that AFFIs at both Perris and Elsinore rarely tunnel? I was in the tube with Skylord last night. AC had a couple after me, while Marie (DippyMoo) took a student for an early morning skyventure. Exactly... If the tunnel coach happens to be an AFF I - then ok... But, it would not be a prerequisite for me, in my opinion... Actually, I would prefer someone who is an expert RW coach over a AFF I (if both, even better), just as long as they had experience building the skills from the ground up, for a total newbie... That is my point... But, Shark, I understand Perris has great AFF instructors, so I am in agreement... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites VanillaSkyGirl 6 #70 July 10, 2005 QuoteBut, Shark, I understand Perris has great AFF instructors, so I am in agreement... Shark (Mark), Marie and AC are all from Elsinore. Both DZs have great AFF Is and great RW or freefly coaches alike. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Shark 0 #71 July 11, 2005 QuoteQuoteBut, Shark, I understand Perris has great AFF instructors, so I am in agreement... Shark (Mark), Marie and AC are all from Elsinore. Both DZs have great AFF Is and great RW or freefly coaches alike. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #72 July 11, 2005 QuoteExactly... If the tunnel coach happens to be an AFF I - then ok... But, it would not be a prerequisite for me, in my opinion... Actually, I would prefer someone who is an expert RW coach over a AFF I (if both, even better), just as long as they had experience building the skills from the ground up, for a total newbie... That is my point... Ah, Tdog gets it."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites arlo 0 #73 July 11, 2005 i have seen several AFF-Is (and i use that term loosely) who couldn't fly their asses our of a paper sack bring students in the tunnel (SVO) and damn near take them out (by burbling, colliding, etc). i even asked one from the maryland area if he thought he was a good instructor in the tunnel and he said "absolutely!" f-ing ridiculous. for those AFF-Is that frequent the tunnel and are good tunnel flyers, that's great! you get to build a rapiore with the student both on and off the dz (so to speak). but if someone tries to tell me any AFF-I would be best at teaching in the tunnel i'll call bullshit right away. i saw a lot of that while at SVO...a few years worth and the ones i saw that sucked might have been the world's best AFF-Is (which i HIGHLY doubt) but they put their students closer to harms way in the tunnel than the students did for themselves. the tunnel instructors can (and do) teach most people basic body flight and do a damn good job of it. they're not trying to teach them to be world champs...they're teaching the students how to fly stable and do BASIC moves. for instructors keeping students in the tunnel for more than 1 minute at a time: do you find that this decreases their altitude awareness because their internal clock (that's now being created) fakes them into expecting longer freefall times due to these extended "freefall" times in the tunnel? i've talked to alot of guys that started skydiving in conjunction with tunnel flying and several thought they had more time than they actually did during the skydives. just curious if you consider this to be a potential issue. blues, arlo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #74 July 11, 2005 Quotebut if someone tries to tell me any AFF-I would be best at teaching in the tunnel i'll call bullshit right away I agree.....But for ONCE I was trying to be PC....Oh well Several of the tunnel rats tell me that they don't like it when an AFF "I" that is not tunnel proficent brings students to the tunnel.....It doubles their workload, and like you, I have seen some really scary "I's" trying to work in the tunnel. The tunnel is not like a skydive. It takes time to develop a trust with the rats, and it takes time to learn the tricks of teaching in a tunnel. Quotefor instructors keeping students in the tunnel for more than 1 minute at a time: do you find that this decreases their altitude awareness because their internal clock (that's now being created) fakes them into expecting longer freefall times due to these extended "freefall" times in the tunnel? Not really. When you look at the "average" student who does 10 min of tunnel to fix a problem, or does 10 min as part of a program....They don't tend to get used to the extended freefall. I also make sure that they realize that a skydive is shorter. Now your buddies who did a lot of tunnel, or a rat that then learns to jump I have been told that it is weird for them."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #75 July 11, 2005 AFF - I vs experienced rat. This is nuts, people. We're only talking basic stability here. Let the tunnel flying expert do the teaching in the tunnel. Let the AFFI do the training in the real air. It's about tunnel qualifications, not AFF qualifications. More power to the instructor with both, but they should do it because of the tunnel experience, not the other. If you want to bring the instructor into it, then get a list from the instructor of the skills they believe are needed for the student and the rat can use that for an effective lesson goal/plan. That way the student gets a targetted lesson not biased by what "the student thinks" they need, but by what they 'really' need. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 Next Page 3 of 5 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
SkymonkeyONE 3 #61 July 8, 2005 Actual time in the cone? maybe fifteen minutes per student. Edited to add that that when we used to get time at the sport parachute club, it was generally for three hours. We would split that time between first jump students, people still in the student progression, and instructor drills. Once again, each student got around fifteen minutes in the cone, but we would keep "problem children" in there till we fixed them. When we would get the tunnel at lunch, it would be for around an hour and a half per day. When we got it as a unit we would get it for the entire day, sometimes several days. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bodyflight.Net 0 #62 July 8, 2005 Well.. that's pretty good time then, if they (first timers) are doing 360s & stopping on heading that quickly (avg. 15 min), that's alot of control do you do your sessions with rigs on too...? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
heidihagen 0 #63 July 9, 2005 hi c!awesome! you're gonna have a great time..and learn a TON- i know it! the pv tunnel coaches are wonderful.. they can fix ya QuoteQuoteFrom what I have seen, students who use wind tunnel training in conjunction with AFF *generally* progress through their AFF with less trouble. I've also seen students do well in the tunnel and then seem to forget everything from the tunnel when getting into the air. Everyone is different. OH GREAT; now you're scaring me. I guess this is why I want to jump before I leave Perris next week. i'm not sure what that guys post was about, but i wouldn't let it worry ya. i don't know who "the best" is... or how you would judge something like that, but they are amazing flyers and know how to explain things and make them "click" .. if that makes sense. ....probably not because i don't know how to "explain things" i've heard nothing but positive things about wind tunnels as an aid. i'm just a student, but i've "been there" in the worst way... if you ask any of my instructors (or previous affi's)---"helped" is an understatement. i still needed work once i got back of course, but it helped my instructors immensely. i was kind of an airborne disaster also, i wanted to make a jump while out there... and did! i wanted to make sure the tunnel was working... not to mention, they have a fantastic view! it was my first time to exit with two instructors (i started with the stp program)... at home i was stuck on stp2 (turns), so i did an aff3. i wasn't familiar with COA and their signals were different from my old dz. it seemed like a lot to juggle, and i didn't pass but i would do it again in a heartbeat. plus i did end up going with another session or two before i went home... since you've already been released, you'll probably get more out of the trip than i did. i was like a piece of wood bouncing off the walls (for thye first few minutes anyway!) ... then once i got home, i switched dz's/started over, and was able to finish aff in 5 jumps. i had 45 minutes/split into 3 sessions. the first day wore me OUT! sore sore muscles... so make sure you stretch. you don't feel it until you leave (at least i didn't). also, ask for video! it's not too pricey and worth it! plus you can reuse the same tape later that day/the next day after you review. hehehe!!! i know what you mean! when i bought my ticket, i was thinking "this is so unlike me... it's not even a holiday!!!" watch out---i haven't stopped! i abused the sick day thing on every pretty day last winter and lost my other job (eh, awful hours anyway)! you're going to have a BLAST though. i bet the weather will be PERRfect... and even if it's not.. hey, you have a wind tunnel on sight! how cool is that?? verrrrry!!! QuoteHowdy Heidi . (I crack myself up.) Well, I took your advice, and it's now official: Major announcement here: I will be at Perris next Thursday and Friday. Awesome things have been said about both Skyventure locations (Orlando & Perris), but my decision was based on the weather forecast for each place. I don't know if I'll have time to make a real jump while I'm out there, but the weather is kinda' important in that regard. This is turning into QUITE the adventure. I'm playing hookie from work and EVERYTHING! Wish you could go again, Heidi!i didn't lose my mind, i sold it on ebay. .:need a container to fit 5'4", 110 lb. cypres ready & able to fit a 170 main (or slightly smaller):.[/ce Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mockingbird 0 #64 July 9, 2005 QuoteGetting back to the original question of will it help a student pass Level 4? Probably, but it's only half the picture. If the student cannot fly a simple landing pattern under canopy and/or lands downwind or on top of a building, the student has not met ALL of the performance objectives in order to progress to the next level. I doubt many instructors would sign off on a student to solo whom couldn't fly a basic pattern, nor land without JM assistance. Hi, Shark. I was the original question-er, and my only problem so far has been freefall: not being able to maintain stability. So far I've always gotten good comments about my canopy control. As I mentioned to someone else, my problems seem to be: 1) tension and 2) turning, although last week the turning quickly became spinning--FAST. In fact, I pulled in a spin because my instructor was not able to stop me.Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #65 July 9, 2005 Quick note, Mockingbird... You have started an interesting debate on this subject... This thread is quickly moving to having the most replies out of any windtunnel thread. 65 or something now, the record thread is in the 70's... It seems there is a lot of interesting feedback on using tunnels for AFF type coaching. Some people think AFF hand signals and AFF diveflows are the way to go... Others think flying in the tunnel is about learning how to fly and the hand signals don't really need to be AFF specific... Great debate... I guess my two cents... I rather take a tunnel coach in the tunnel (who has hundreds of hours coaching in the tunnel) over an AFF rated instructor who rarely tunnels... After seeing my tunnel coaches use the technology of the tunnel to train, like having me fly 6" off the net as they tell the operator to change the speed of the wind to see if I can adjust to unknown changes without warning, or standing on the net and slowly “manipulating” my body into the perfect shape then having me hold it for a minute or two - I see there are a lot of "tricks" that can be used in the tunnel that cannot be used in the sky... Tunnel coaches know these tricks for the tunnel as AFF Is know the tricks for the sky… So, what I am saying is… If my best friend needed help getting thru AFF, specifically stability and control of the body – and a tunnel was an option, I would NOT ask, “is your tunnel coach an AFF rated instructor” but instead I would ask, “how many newbies has your coach taught in the tunnel?” But, I might be completely wrong, so let the debate continue… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bodyflight.Net 0 #66 July 9, 2005 QuoteThis thread is quickly moving to having the most replies out of any windtunnel thread. 65 or something now, the record thread is in the 70's... Well.. we gotta make that happen!! TDog, thanks for your clarity, I am glad to know your views, they helped to brighten my day just a bit For us, this thread has been wonderful.. I'm glad the original poster is now going to get some tunnel time, hopefully they'll come back and let us all know how it went! We are certainly going to make another 'scenario' available to our students as a result of this thread. We are going to buy a countdown altimeter, and offer our 'harness' (straps like a rig) to all AFF students.. this should help immediately with more familiar grips & placing our coaches on the 'main' side of the student, as well as altimeter checks and might even make timing flights easier. Our Tunnel Rigs are still in development with the manufacturer, when we have those it'll be even nicer & more realistic. We will also always make available our traditional methods which have worked well for John for 20+ years too.. which include just the learn to fly part, because then the rest is cake, when your a profficient flyer already. We are usually privy to at least a conversation with the AFFI who sends the students our way.. these choices ought to help us use the best method for each student, depending on their end goals. So thanks everyone!!Pink Suits, Blue Skies & Fast Air, Dawn Suiter PMTS Delegate Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mockingbird 0 #67 July 9, 2005 By the way, I made the announcement a couple of days ago that I would be at Perris NEXT weekend for this big adventure, but it turns out now that it will be the following weekend--- so everyone (including myself!) will have to wait 2 more weeks to find out if I am "cured." Since I can't jump this weekend or next, I'm concentrating on my "Mental Training for Skydiving and Life" book by John J. DeRosalia...Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shark 0 #68 July 10, 2005 I understand what you are getting at, but do you really believe that AFFIs at both Perris and Elsinore rarely tunnel? I was in the tube with Skylord last night. AC had a couple after me, while Marie (DippyMoo) took a student for an early morning skyventure. Edited: I can understand if your DZ is not in proximity to a VWT, so an option would be to use tunnel coaches. Our students know that the VWT is a part of the learning syllabus. We often recommend tunnel time whether the student is having issues or not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #69 July 10, 2005 QuoteI understand what you are getting at, but do you really believe that AFFIs at both Perris and Elsinore rarely tunnel? I was in the tube with Skylord last night. AC had a couple after me, while Marie (DippyMoo) took a student for an early morning skyventure. Exactly... If the tunnel coach happens to be an AFF I - then ok... But, it would not be a prerequisite for me, in my opinion... Actually, I would prefer someone who is an expert RW coach over a AFF I (if both, even better), just as long as they had experience building the skills from the ground up, for a total newbie... That is my point... But, Shark, I understand Perris has great AFF instructors, so I am in agreement... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VanillaSkyGirl 6 #70 July 10, 2005 QuoteBut, Shark, I understand Perris has great AFF instructors, so I am in agreement... Shark (Mark), Marie and AC are all from Elsinore. Both DZs have great AFF Is and great RW or freefly coaches alike. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shark 0 #71 July 11, 2005 QuoteQuoteBut, Shark, I understand Perris has great AFF instructors, so I am in agreement... Shark (Mark), Marie and AC are all from Elsinore. Both DZs have great AFF Is and great RW or freefly coaches alike. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #72 July 11, 2005 QuoteExactly... If the tunnel coach happens to be an AFF I - then ok... But, it would not be a prerequisite for me, in my opinion... Actually, I would prefer someone who is an expert RW coach over a AFF I (if both, even better), just as long as they had experience building the skills from the ground up, for a total newbie... That is my point... Ah, Tdog gets it."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
arlo 0 #73 July 11, 2005 i have seen several AFF-Is (and i use that term loosely) who couldn't fly their asses our of a paper sack bring students in the tunnel (SVO) and damn near take them out (by burbling, colliding, etc). i even asked one from the maryland area if he thought he was a good instructor in the tunnel and he said "absolutely!" f-ing ridiculous. for those AFF-Is that frequent the tunnel and are good tunnel flyers, that's great! you get to build a rapiore with the student both on and off the dz (so to speak). but if someone tries to tell me any AFF-I would be best at teaching in the tunnel i'll call bullshit right away. i saw a lot of that while at SVO...a few years worth and the ones i saw that sucked might have been the world's best AFF-Is (which i HIGHLY doubt) but they put their students closer to harms way in the tunnel than the students did for themselves. the tunnel instructors can (and do) teach most people basic body flight and do a damn good job of it. they're not trying to teach them to be world champs...they're teaching the students how to fly stable and do BASIC moves. for instructors keeping students in the tunnel for more than 1 minute at a time: do you find that this decreases their altitude awareness because their internal clock (that's now being created) fakes them into expecting longer freefall times due to these extended "freefall" times in the tunnel? i've talked to alot of guys that started skydiving in conjunction with tunnel flying and several thought they had more time than they actually did during the skydives. just curious if you consider this to be a potential issue. blues, arlo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #74 July 11, 2005 Quotebut if someone tries to tell me any AFF-I would be best at teaching in the tunnel i'll call bullshit right away I agree.....But for ONCE I was trying to be PC....Oh well Several of the tunnel rats tell me that they don't like it when an AFF "I" that is not tunnel proficent brings students to the tunnel.....It doubles their workload, and like you, I have seen some really scary "I's" trying to work in the tunnel. The tunnel is not like a skydive. It takes time to develop a trust with the rats, and it takes time to learn the tricks of teaching in a tunnel. Quotefor instructors keeping students in the tunnel for more than 1 minute at a time: do you find that this decreases their altitude awareness because their internal clock (that's now being created) fakes them into expecting longer freefall times due to these extended "freefall" times in the tunnel? Not really. When you look at the "average" student who does 10 min of tunnel to fix a problem, or does 10 min as part of a program....They don't tend to get used to the extended freefall. I also make sure that they realize that a skydive is shorter. Now your buddies who did a lot of tunnel, or a rat that then learns to jump I have been told that it is weird for them."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #75 July 11, 2005 AFF - I vs experienced rat. This is nuts, people. We're only talking basic stability here. Let the tunnel flying expert do the teaching in the tunnel. Let the AFFI do the training in the real air. It's about tunnel qualifications, not AFF qualifications. More power to the instructor with both, but they should do it because of the tunnel experience, not the other. If you want to bring the instructor into it, then get a list from the instructor of the skills they believe are needed for the student and the rat can use that for an effective lesson goal/plan. That way the student gets a targetted lesson not biased by what "the student thinks" they need, but by what they 'really' need. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
