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Why do you fly in Vertical Wind Tunnels?

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That's hardly a fair comparison from my standpoint.. I mean... vertical wind tunnels were not invented for "freefall simulation" nor are they simulating freefall in anyway even to this day, IMO
and since I'm one of only 2 who answered "trains to be a better tunnelrat".. you have proved the point of the poll beautifully! I figured alot of you would feel that way.. but I just don't understand it.. skydiving is skydiving & tunnel flying is another ball game altogether, at least for me.
:)
Pink Suits, Blue Skies & Fast Air,
Dawn Suiter PMTS #3

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Skydiving is skydiving & tunnel flying is another ball game altogether, at least for me.
:)



You may think so... But around 30 jumps I went to Perris and did 30 minutes of one-on-one coaching with Pat... My first tunnel session... The best investment in my skydiving life to date... Every minute of that tunnel session translated to the sky... Perfect training tool... I only have a handful of hours in the tunnel, but I want more, more, more, to be a better skydiver!!! If I become a better tunnel rat by accident, all the more better.

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skydiving is skydiving & tunnel flying is another ball game altogether



I have to disagree. Everything that I do in the tunnel translates quite well into freefall and is a way for me to get better in freefall quicker. I don't have to worry about exits and landings and can concentrate on and correct immediately something that I'm doing.

In the tunnel, I have 2 minutes at a time to practice and correct issues whereas in a skydive, I have 1 minute to hopefully get a few things correct, debrief them, try and correct the items on the ground go up and repeat.

For me (although I love the tunnel and have fun playing in it), it's a way for me to get better in the air - an excellent training tool.
Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile.

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Obviously I'm in the minority and training to be a better tunnel rat. I would REALLY consider it, 'having FUN and becoming a better bodyflyer.'

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skydiving is skydiving & tunnel flying is another ball game altogether



I have to disagree. Everything that I do in the tunnel translates quite well into freefall and is a way for me to get better in freefall quicker.



I'm with you here. I think that it depends on dicipline to some degree, among other things. Freeflying can be a very different ball game with slower wind speeds. Bellyflying wind speeds can be reached in most, if not all of the tunnels (even in portables you can belly fly, but how well that would translate to skydiving I cannot say since i have never flown one), but freefly sky speeds cannot be reached in any tunnel- SkyVenture comes close but is still a far cry from freefall. This may be why the translation for FF tunnel to FF sky, isn't as smooth as with the belly.

I found it to be a little work to fly fast in the sky after flying 15 hours at SkyVenture (and we've got windspeeds closer to actual freefall than most tunnels- the windspeeds being such that a majority of the FreeFlyers can use it and it doesn't take a ton of time to work up to the 135mph). I don't have many jumps but each one was progressively getting faster and my skills for everything else translated VERY well. Slower wind speeds than SkyVenture would have made the transition tougher for me- just my opinion and my experiences.
Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate
www.TunnelPinkMafia.com

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Where's the option "because it's fun as hell!!!" ?? I don't feel like I'm training when I'm at the tunnel, just like I don't feel like I'm training when I'm skydiving. Other than when I was training for 4-way, it's just been about fun.

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vertical wind tunnels were not invented for "freefall simulation"



Whether that's what vertical wind tunnels were originally "invented" to do, that's what the ones we fly today are designed, built and used for in addition to their own specific forms of body flight.

From the SkyVenture Orlando web site: SkyVenture is designed for beginners to enjoy the sensation of free fall and body flight in a safe environment

From the AAC web site: Skydivers practice in Vertical Wind Tunnels, which are also known as Skydiving or Free Fall Simulators

From the Bodyflight University web site: The outdoor environment and the sound of the air rushing past you creates a truly realistic "freefall simulation"

From the Flyaway Las Vegas website: Q. Is it like skydiving?
A. Yes, the skills you need to fly the tunnel are the skills you need to skydive

All of these tunnels seem to be saying that they can be used for skydiving or freefall simulation.


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nor are they simulating freefall in anyway even to this day



I feel that in many ways vertical wind tunnels can accurately simulate freefall today. Air deflection is air deflection. If you are falling down through a column of air at 120mph or you have air being blown or sucked up past you at 120mph, you still have air molecules hitting you and defelcting off of you at 120mph. You might not have as much and it might not be as consistent, but it is still going the react the same way. It might not be the same, but it simulates a lot of it very well (IMO.)

How could training in a wind tunnel increase your freefall skill if wind tunnels do not simulate freefall in "anyway"?
Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

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but freefly sky speeds cannot be reached in any tunnel-



Not for long..................:P



It would be pretty cool if you could do it and have it flyable by more than just a select few.

Would the windspeeds benefit anyone aside from freeflyers though? Unfortunately, the 4-way teams are paying the big bucks and returning more frequently. I know there are also FF teams out there spending tons of time at the tunnel too, just not in the same numbers. I believe there are simply more 4-way teams creating a larger demand. The increase in operating costs doesn't seem like it would be a good trade off if the FFers aren't the one driving the majority of the demand.

I wish we could drive that kind of demand though, one day maybe.
Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate
www.TunnelPinkMafia.com

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I like the vertical ones way better than the horizontal ones.



And the vertical ones that blow downward are pretty crappy too for skydiving simulation.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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Hey.. sorry I took so long.. been a little absentee this weekend!

Figures that in those websites, you would've quoted me a couple times over!:P But when I put on my 'advertising' hat, everything is different.. it's not about my opinion but popular opinion that rules the methods.

Although I TOO enjoyed the benefit of knowing how to fly before I jumped.. but tunnelflying lacks so many important "freefall" aspects.
Adrenaline, HUGE difference between the sky & tunnel for me..
Closing Speed, while bumping into another flyer in the tunnel is harmless.. the same maneuver in the sky could be 'painful' at least.
Regardless of how I'm flying, in freefall.. I'm falling and using my body to steer.. in the tunnel,, I'm really flying; up, down, left right.. etc
Altitude awareness, flying regularly for long periods makes me forget about time limits
Visual space.. I mean no points of reference
A 20+ lb rig on my back, changes nearly everything in my flying.. while I can still do it.. there is a major adjustment

these things make a big difference to me, and when anyone asks how close it is to freefall.. I usually explain that it means that it's close to the "flying" portion of freefall.. but nothing else. There is so much more responsibility in freefall.. so much more to do.. they seem worlds apart. Skydiving is not easy.. there is alot of responsibility that goes along with it.. that in and of itself.. changed my mind very quickly about the similarities..

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How could training in a wind tunnel increase your freefall skill if wind tunnels do not simulate freefall in "anyway"?


driving a car prepared me very well for canopy flight.. or so I think anyway... steering.. understanding breaking distance, depth perception, etc.. but I wouldn't consider my Taurus a parachute sim in anyway. There are many things we can simulate something and then take those skills somewhere unrelated.

Perhaps after a few dozen more skydives I wouldn't feel this way.. I really don't know. I used to think it was an accurate simulation.. until I made about a dozen jumps, and then I began to see the many differences.. and different skills I use in freefall. But most importantly.. the things I took for granted.

Take away the nets, put on a rig, and inject me with adrenaline.. turn the speed up to ludicrous speed and then blow ice cold air into the tunnel.. now I would feel like we're getting closer.. :D:P:D

Pink Suits, Blue Skies & Fast Air,
Dawn Suiter PMTS #3

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but freefly sky speeds cannot be reached in any tunnel-



That is not an accurate statement. The Fort Bragg tunnel actually had to be detuned after it was first opened because it was far too fast and sucked one of the front doors in off the building! You can very, very easilly still turn the tunnel up so fast as to pin a freeflyer to the ceiling. The problem with cranking tunnels up so fast is the danger of corking.

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Like Ben Stein, I bow to your superior nature ;):D Good call Chuck. I was meaning that they haven't been reached safely in a tunnel environment (I can't imagine corking in there:o), for the majority of us to fly and use. Sorry, its been a long few weeks here on my end. I totally spaced on Bragg stuff.

I guess I don't think there is a point in having the speed if you can't use it safely (speaking on civilian use). I can see where in military application it is great, but for civilians I don't know how practical and safe it would be.

Do you have a take on this? Would an increase in speed even be worth it in the Bragg or SV environment? I know you stated the corking, any other issues that might not be so obvious? It seems that it would add a lot of danger factors into a small area/equation.

Sorry for all the ?'s I'm just interested to hear your take since you have exp. with the Bragg tunnel. I'm so jealous :)
Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate
www.TunnelPinkMafia.com

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For sure but that's already been stated :P. I just wanted his take on things since he has experience with a tunnel I've never flown. It's always been a place I've wanted to fly but I'm not military. I know so little about it, I was just wondering of other dangers.
Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate
www.TunnelPinkMafia.com

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There were actually several points to my post. First, that the Bragg tunnel is much more powerful than is required to let a person fly standing straight up or straight down. Second, that if a person could manage to hold his position in the cone at that airspeed he better well not fuck up and cork. Likewise, it takes a lot attention on the part of the tunnel operator. It would be fantastically stupid to think you could just step off into the cone at HD freefly speed; it needs to be cranked up to it after the person/people are in there and then eased back down less you get spit out and into the windows (as has happened plenty of times). The margin of error is very small and the danger factor increases at high airspeeds. LOTS of people have been injured in the Bragg tunnel over the years, student and instructor alike.

Chuck

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Adrenaline, HUGE difference between the sky & tunnel for me..



Thats because you have 28 jumps and 44 hours of tunnel. 28 minutes to 44 hours.

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Closing Speed, while bumping into another flyer in the tunnel is harmless.. the same maneuver in the sky could be 'painful' at least



Not from the same distance and speed. Same distance and speed, same damage. Yes, you can get more speed in freefall, but only due to the greater distance.

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Regardless of how I'm flying, in freefall.. I'm falling and using my body to steer.. in the tunnel,, I'm really flying; up, down, left right.. etc



I fail to see how flying in freefall and flying in the tunnel is different. The only difference is really frame of reference.

The same body position will do the same in either application.

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A 20+ lb rig on my back, changes nearly everything in my flying.. while I can still do it.. there is a major adjustment



This is true.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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i dont understand that. thats analogous to an astronaut training in a simulator to get better at the simulation, rather than training for an eventual mission.



I've been thinking about this analogy since you posted it.. it's just eating away at me so to speak...

don't you think that the astronauts simulator does MORE than just give them a bumpy ride to space as a simulation? Not that I've been in one.. but I'm guessing there is MORE to the simulation than just sitting there.. switches, gauges, video display.. scenarios to work through.. etc..

that hardly seems comparable to us practicing only 1 aspect of skydiving in the tunnel.

The only mission I'm preparing for is my next flight or PMTS induction!:)

this is also a shameless bump.. are there really only 47 tunnelfyers on here???

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The only mission I'm preparing for is my next flight or PMTS induction!:)



:) :)
Only 47, oh well. We need to work on growing the 'army' (in a good military/orderly sense not bad war/govt stuff) with little ones like Lexi so they can kick booty when its their time to shine!:)
Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate
www.TunnelPinkMafia.com

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