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riggerrob

What year did your school convert to squares?

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I've not been jumping long enough to have ever seen student round mains. In Gimli we finally converted to square reserves in spring of 2015. (But you could hardly imagine a DZ with more clear area and less obstacles). None of our pilots are jumpers, we give them rounds.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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When I started jumping (back in 1977) all the schools used round canopies.
During the early 1980s, the most progressive schools in Ontario started loaning large squares to students.
In 1986, the Black Forest Parachute Club bought a batch of Lazer 290 student canopies in 1986.
By 1987, many Canadian DZs had converted to Mantas.
The oldest batch student square reserves (that I have seen) is a Tempo 250s made in 1996.
Around the mid-1990s, a few Swiss DZs bought Aviator 290 Pilot Emergency Parachutes.

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I'm aware that sometime in the late 80s or early 90s CSPA made square mains mandatory for affiliated schools. It was a nasty political battle and resulted in the largest DZ in the country leaving CSPA.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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Circa 1080, Crown Assets Disposal (Canada) and the US military stopped selling airworthy surplus parachutes. As military surplus chutes suffered cut lines and harnesses were no longer sold with leg straps, the supply of military surplus parachutes wore out.
Companies like Pioneer and Strong Enterprises offered military- pattern round canopies in fancier colours, but they cost ten times as much as surplus round canopies.
A few civilian manufacturers tried selling newly-sewn round canopies (e.g. XL 30), but they cost as much as Mantas.
Also during the 1980s, Para-Flite had an over-stock on military freefall (square) reserves, so they unloaded their surplus to civilian skydiving schools as "DC-5" 270 square foot, 5-cells. The most charitable thing I can say about DC-5s is that they were easier to pack than Para-Commanders and more reliable.
The first thing schools noticed about Mantas was their much lower malfunction rate. The second thing schools noticed was far fewer broken ankles on solo students.

By 1989, all the better schools had converted to Mantas, so USPA and CSPA changed their BSRs to require large, docile canopies for all first solo students.
By the early 1990s, Parachute School of Toronto was one of the few Canadian skydiving schools still using military-surplus round canopies. Since DZO Lloyd Kallio (sp?) was close to retirement, he did not want to waste money replacing all his military-surplus student gear, so PST quit CSPA. Lloyd joined a couple of other renegade DZs to form CAPS .... but CAPS is another story ....

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Lloyd joined a couple of other renegade DZs to form CAPS .... but CAPS is another story ....



Yes, for a while Canadian DZs that did not want to play under CSPA rules formed CAPS as a fig leaf. But they no longer need to do that. They just affiliate with USPA and they provide the fig leaf.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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I started at Grand Bend, ON, and they converted to squares somewhere around 1982. You'd know better, but I guess Bob at Grand Bend and Tom at Gananoque, ON were a couple of the pioneers of putting students on squares, probably having to get special permission from the CSPA to do something so radical?

As for my current DZ they went to squares in 1987 when they moved to a new location, and went to ram air reserves somewhere around 2000 when they got some new used student gear.

Squares for pilots? Ha ha as you say. They end up with everything from old military rigs to early 80s sport rigs with old rounds, plus a pillow in the main container.

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1982? What size were those then?

The biggest square canopy I'd seen (and jumped once) before that was called a Goliath. That would have been around 1976/77, not sure the size of them, but they were quite big.
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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riggerrob

Circa 1080, Crown Assets Disposal (Canada) and the US military stopped selling airworthy surplus parachutes. ....



Leo DaVinci was heartbroken. He had to design his own.
Every fight is a food fight if you're a cannibal

Goodness is something to be chosen. When a man cannot choose, he ceases to be a man. - Anthony Burgess

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kuai43

***Circa 1080, Crown Assets Disposal (Canada) and the US military stopped selling airworthy surplus parachutes. ....



Leo DaVinci was heartbroken. He had to design his own.

..................................................
Tee! Hee!
My bad!
I meant to say: "circa 1980, military surplus parachutes were no longer sold with suspension lines intact."
Since re-lining a round canopy cost as much as a newly-sewn canopy ...

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obelixtim

1982? What size were those then?

The biggest square canopy I'd seen (and jumped once) before that was called a Goliath. That would have been around 1976/77, not sure the size of them, but they were quite big.


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I have also have one jump on a Goliath canopy made by Para-Flite, 370 square foot 7-cell, made of F-111 fabric and the bottom skin was span-wise construction.
The Goliath was one sub-product of the while Swift project launched in 1981. The project included the Swift (main and reserve), Cirrus and Orion reserves. The Swift also spawned a long line of military MT1????? freefall rigs. Goliath is just a pretty-coloured version of a military freefall canopy that was made during the 1980s.

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By 1989, all the better schools had converted to Mantas, so USPA and CSPA changed their BSRs to require large, docile canopies for all first solo students.



I don't know where you get your history facts as I have never been able to ever find some of the things you have mentioned as fact. In the 1980's there was a motion from the floor at an AGM making it mandatory that student mains had to be squares. This was to try and force Lloyd to switch over to squares. Lloyd always believed that rounds were safer than squares and refused to switch over after a long speech at the AGM. He continued for some time afterwards dropping students under rounds. That is coming from first hand witnesses at the AGM, AGM minutes and talking with Lloyd himself.

I am not going to get into the other inaccuracies at this time.

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Now I'm getting confused. Beatnik, aren't you and Rob saying essentially the same thing?

Neither of you (nor I) have the exact dates pinned down off hand, but the trend was towards squares, almost everyone was using squares, so the CSPA changed their rules requiring squares for students. (And I guess it wasn't something dictated by the Tech & Safety Committee as so many rule changes are now, but came from a motion from the floor at the AGM. Hotly debated no doubt but it passed.) Thus the old Parachute School of Toronto had to leave the CSPA. They continued on with rounds for students for a few years until Lloyd retired. This is what I understand and matches what you guys said. Is that all not correct?

Or are we getting into subtleties about intent? Lloyd did honestly believe rounds were better for students (so I've heard), but also wouldn't have wanted to replace all his gear all at once.

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gowlerk

Apparently I should not have brought up this old political battle. Even after all these years it inflames feelings.



I think all that's in dispute is when these things occurred. Not surprising since most of us old farts are battling alz....alz.....alz.....ah, bugger, I forget......
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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And cirrus main. I had one. Reputation of hard to land but just had to work with it. Big fluffy matress with 230 sq ft or so. And only 5 cells, about 2 ft thick. But flew as fast and flatter than a pegasus in air to air comparison. Only stopped jumping because of shattered distal tibia and needed something a little easier. Don't remember when we switched to ram air student mains but the DZO first got vulcans. It boke the ribs of the experienced jumper trying it out. Then mantas in conventional rigs with belly warts. First piggy backs with northern lites about 1990, I think.
I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

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What Rob is saying is inaccurate to the actual events that occurred. The removal of round mains from school were people trying to strong arm Lloyd to change his operation, which at the time was one of if not the largest operation in Canada. It was essentially a strong arm tactic from a couple of individuals within CSPA. It wasn't something that was really on their radar. I would have the exact dates of all of this if I had access to my archives where I am.

The point of it was that the old boys club forced the change and it cost CSPA. It wasn't about safety from their point of view. Lloyd wasn't using much surplus gear. Most of it was sport gear from yesteryear. The idea that people weren't playing by CSPA's rules so they left is ridiculous. Some people were criticized regardless of what they did because of the old boys club. For instance the procedure of IADs hanging under the strut rather than dynamic exits from the door. It was bashed for years and then later became the established norm in Canada even though it was started from a non-CSPA skydiver that had enough. What is now the CSPA came about from the eventual merging of two skydiving associations in Canada, the Western Canadian Sport Parachute Association and the Parachute Clubs of Canada. They were at odds for some time because each believed that they were better than each other. There has always been a divide between skydiving associations in Canada and most likely always will.

Lloyd's refusal to change had more to do with his believes than his pocket book. His involvement with CAPS was minor compared to the several players in the west. Lloyd had much more to do with CSPA than CAPS and oddly enough it was that association that pushed him out. It is bad enough that some people believe that CAPS was formed because people didn't want to play be CSPA's rules. When it was much more involved than that. The decisions that CSPA made at the time ended up costing a great deal of money. Getting the facts straight is what is important. If someone is going to pass information off as historical fact it should be accurate. This is how information starts becoming one side and real facts becoming obscured because people start taking what some people say as fact.

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CAPS was formed principally because as TC (formerly MOT) was developing the CARS there was talk that they may take a hand in regulating skydiving. The feeling was that schools would be required to join and follow a recognized program of training. A few DZs did not belong to CSPA for various reasons, mostly politics and personal feelings. The instructors that they were using, although mostly at least as well trained as CSPA instructors had no ratings from anyone. CAPS was formed in order to have an organization that could issue ratings without having to jump though the hoops that getting CSPA ratings would entail. In the end TC did not regulate skydiving and CAPS disappeared after a few years. The DZs left who do not have CSPA rated instructors now affiliate with USPA and either send instructors south to get ratings or just hire Americans seasonally.

Now I'm really sorry I mentioned it.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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That is part of the reason CAPS was formed. There are other reasons that was more directly related to CSPA that happened long before any CARS regarding skydiving was considered. It had a lot to do with CSPA bashing certain operators which ended up costing CSPA lots of money. CAPS itself is still around but it in any capacity. I have done much research in this area as the history guy in Canada to find the accurate story and even went so far to contact the people running CAPS. Also there are a few USPA examiners that are Canadian in the country that train people regularly. There is no need to hire Americans to train jumpers in Canada for USPA ratings. Most of the Canadian drop ones that are affiliated with USPA are also CSPA. To my knowledge there are three that are solely USPA (one in BC, Manitoba and Quebec). Many jumpers are double hated so they are able to go south and work at USPA drop ones. There will be at least one examiner that will be double hated in Canada offering both USPA and CSPA courses. This only strengthens skydiving in Canada as there are advantages to both. This is off topic from the original post. Last time for me.

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Well, hell. I don't have a dog in this fight, but just looking in from the outside..
Every fight is a food fight if you're a cannibal

Goodness is something to be chosen. When a man cannot choose, he ceases to be a man. - Anthony Burgess

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kuai43

Well, hell. I don't have a dog in this fight, but just looking in from the outside..



.............................................................

Charming picture!
Tee! Hee!

I too am wondering why Beatnic is so upset. ????????

I get my facts from jumping at various Canadian DZs since 1977.
I have taught at a few Canadian DZs since earning my first instructor rating in 1982.

I have no animosity against Lloyd Kallio. I rather enjoyed the way he ran his DZ (Arthur, Ontario) during the summer of 1979, where I did 50 jumps and earned my CSPA A License.
My buddy Grant made his first static-line jump in Arthur in 2001 and said that the parachutes were still round and rather "green."

Like many old-time instructors, Lloyd firmly believed that "rounds were sound" and the best choice for static-line students.
I still believe that rounds are the best choice for paratroopers who enjoy jumping with rucksack, rifle and snowshoes.

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I just don't like information being passed off as fact when it is inaccurate. I have spent many years piecing together the history of skydiving in Canada and when people start throwing out information out there it damages much of the work that I have done and further adds to the misinformation out there. People are quick to throw out their opinion as fact from things they have very little evidence of. If you are going to put something out there as a piece of history, make it accurate. If you don't understand that then I don't know what to say.

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Dear Beatnik,

If you have researched so much Canadian (parachuting) history, we challenge you to publish your findings.

When was the first parachute jump in Canada?

Who was the first Canadian pilot to save his life with a PEP? ... Please enclose all four versions of the story: RCAF, RCA, RCN and civilian.

Who did the first jump from a Canadian airplane?
Who was the first Canadian pilot to survive an ejection? Please include both the RCAF and RCN versions of the story.
Who introduced the "French roll" to North America?
Who was the first Canadian tandem instructor?
Who was the first Canadian military tandem instructor?
Who was the first Canadian to win a medal at a World Championships?
Who was the last Canadian to win a medal at a World Championships?
How much have you uncovered about the Pioneer parachute factory in Smith's Falls, Ontario?

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riggerrob

What year did your school convert to square canopies for first jump students?
What year did your school convert to square reserves for FJC students?
What year did your jump-pilots convert to square pilot emergency parachutes?



1987
1994
2014
Onward and Upward!

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