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feuergnom

tunnel-cracks organizing ff-biggerways - wtf?

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Getting LOed by someone with less than 100 jumps is ridiculous.
Also the person with 1000s of jumps getting LOed by someone with less than 100 jumps has to have some issues.

I'm thinking minimum of 500 jumps for the LOs. You gotta pay some dues, and spend some time at DZ before you get a freebie slot.
Bernie Sanders for President 2016

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Imagining the you have nothing to learn from someone who has tens of thousands of hours in a tunnel because you know more about exits and parachutes is what's ridiculous, even if I DO grant you that there weren't other LOs at the event who have multiple thousands of skydives (which there were).

I've learnt plenty from people with less experience than me. I'm not too proud to admit that I can get it wrong and think things that are incorrect. Nor am I too proud to adjust my beliefs when they're shown to be wrong or incomplete.

Specifically with this event, there was more than one organizer and several of them are world record holding skydivers with thousands of jumps and have competed at nationals etc. Who's really "good enough" when we set the bar above that?

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Those uppity bastards with their jumpsuits! I bet they had shoes too.

Perhaps I'm way off course here, but I feel we should establish the OP's credibility before beginning the process of crucifying any wayward LO.

stayhigh

I don't know, have no clue.

The OP is the one who mentioned it.

I guess he has a jumpsuit, helmet, and a rig?

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The newest trend is the flip flops.

Cool kids don't wear shoes no more. Flip flops and a rubber band. After couple 100 jumps with rubber, and once you know how to curl your toes properly then you may remove the rubber band.

HEY!!!! OP who are you??? BTW You have way too much post loading,,,not that cool to have more post # than the actual jump #.
Bernie Sanders for President 2016

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stayhigh

The newest trend is the flip flops.

Cool kids don't wear shoes no more. Flip flops and a rubber band. After couple 100 jumps with rubber, and once you know how to curl your toes properly then you may remove the rubber band.

HEY!!!! OP who are you??? BTW You have way too much post loading,,,not that cool to have more post # than the actual jump #.


That shit is old skool dude. POPs were doing that shit, in the 70s.

And Danial I blame your shitty load organising for all my bad exits at Flaj this year..LIFT YA GAME KEARNT:D:D:D
You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

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stayhigh

Now everyone with money can become good, it doesn't take any special skills. It used to take a special person to figure all this shit out in 1000 jumps.



You're saying it used to take time and money, now it just takes money? I think that's not true.

With all due respect to the people who put time and money into it in the Good Old Days, the standard they achieved that made them special is just not very special any more.

Now anybody can get that "good" in a short period of time. The real impact of the tunnel is that the definition of "really good" is now massively higher.

If this makes you sad, the response is still what it was before tunnel: spend money, work hard.
--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?

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If we're just talking about the theory of it and you're not sure about actual numbers, I think my point still stands. Pick any world champion tunnel flyer and try to work out the minimum number of jumps you'd want them to have before you consider being load organized by them. For me, that number has very little to do with my own jump numbers and a lot to do with what I can learn from the experience. Clearly, I don't want to be put in danger but that's true regardless of jump numbers. I know and have learnt from people who fall into this category and am glad of it. You're a grown ass man and welcome to your own opinion, I just think you're wrong. :D

Squeak

And Danial I blame your shitty load organising for all my bad exits at Flaj this year..LIFT YA GAME KEARNT:D:D:D


I spent literally MINUTES in the tunnel learning how to fuck up other people's exits even when they weren't on my jumps. It's the skill I'm most proud of! Well, that and being annoying on the internet. :D

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I'll follow anyone with less jump number if they have a legitimate skill.

You LOed my very last jump.

You were very thorough, almost too thorough and detailed for my taste. But you knew how to handle the jump from planning to debriefing. Can you say that you could've done the same when you had less than 100 jumps?

I have no idea who OP was talking about. I haven't made the jump since that day at Perris. But the idea of someone with less than 100 jumps LOing 18 way is mind boggling.

The OP needs to come back up here and clear some shit up.
Bernie Sanders for President 2016

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When you say "very last" jump, you make it sound like you're out of the sport... my organizing must be MUCH worse than I thought. :D

To me, people doing 18 ways should be safe enough to do 18 ways. So, if I have someone with say, 100 jumps who says "I want to get on this 18 way" I'll obviously be a bit suspicious of them and want to know their experience and likely say no. Now, if they say they're a tunnel instructor with 100000 hours in the tunnel, I'll want to find out if that's accurate and then I'll want to know what wing they're flying, etc, etc. For an LO, I'd want to have some idea of what they plan on organizing etc, etc. I'm not going to write them off because they have 100 jumps. Now, at the same time, I have enough experience to be safe and make (mostly - lol) good decisions so that's how I view other people. If you have 500+ jumps (not "the number" just for argument's sake) you should know how to be safe even if you're being "organized" by someone who isn't.

Fact is, for the extremely good tunnel instructors, I can deal with exits and tracking myself. I know what to do with canopy stuff and am not shy speaking up if the "plan" isn't safe.

I can think of plenty of scenarios where a very inexperienced skydiver with 10000 hours in the tunnel can be dangerous but "the exits funneled", "they took too long in the door" or "individual jumpers were flying shitty patterns" aren't something worth grabbing torches and pitchforks over.

stayhigh

You were very thorough, almost too thorough and detailed for my taste. But you knew how to handle the jump from planning to debriefing. Can you say that you could've done the same when you had less than 100 jumps?


I do need to learn to tone it down at times but it all depends on your audience, right? Depending on the event, the debrief may not be necessary. If it's straight LOing, there's not often a need to debrief, at least, it's not part of the role. If it's event organizing, again, it depends. If you're a solo person doing an event with 100 jumps and heaps of tunnel time, then if the participants have enough experience then no but I sure as hell wouldn't want that 100 jump tunnel instructor organizing at an event for new jumpers. That's the trade off in my mind.

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Ya, I'm sorta out of sport. Remember I said I'm quitting that day? My money situation sucks so I'm holding off for a while

Tall Asian dude in a white jump suit? Ring a bell? Damien from Santa Barbara gathered up the group that day. It was like 10 month ago.
Bernie Sanders for President 2016

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I've seen more stupid LOing from people with 500+ and 1000+ skydives. Some of them directly and ultimately ended up as a death of one, in one case - two, skydivers.

So jumps number are nothing in my opinion. You could have 100 jumps, but you know how the equipment works, how to apply safety measures, how important planning is, you hangin out with the best of the sport and getting all the vital information from the first hands. AND you could outfly anyone and explain proper technic to anyone since you know how our bodies actually flying.

I have 3500+ jumps and I will never ask LO about his jumps number if he is doing right things, from my opinion. And again, there are way more stupid skydivers than stupid tunnel instructors.

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BigBUG

So jumps number are nothing in my opinion. You could have 100 jumps, but you know how the equipment works, how to apply safety measures, how important planning is, you hangin out with the best of the sport and getting all the vital information from the first hands. AND you could outfly anyone and explain proper technic to anyone since you know how our bodies actually flying.

I have 3500+ jumps and I will never ask LO about his jumps number if he is doing right things, from my opinion. And again, there are way more stupid skydivers than stupid tunnel instructors.



I think you are being short-sighted. I agree that there are people with high jump numbers that are not good LO's and some may even be dangerous, but there's a lot more to good, safe organizing than deciding on a dive flow and knowing how gear works.

Good organizing involves understanding a lot of nuances in mechanics, jumper skill sets, group potential and limitations, and an infinite number of variables that take a long time to learn and understand well enough to incorporate in a real-world situation. Little things can make differences in safety and results. Jumpers with minimal exposure to the environment simply can't have developed that understanding since much of it is learned through observation and trial and error - and that takes time and jumps.

I'm not saying that a person with 100 jumps can't safely design skydives and lead groups of appropriate skill, but to be a load organizer for a drop zone is a different creature. Those LO's are required to take on jumpers they often don't know well (or at all) and must safely integrate them into the group. LO's must know how to assess skill, attitude, and aptitude, and quickly make adjustments to accommodate the group as a whole. They must know the skydive and skydivers from the boarding area to the packing area and be able to monitor every jumper every moment, looking for safety issues while also analyzing each person's performance along the way. People with minimal jumps and time in the sport simply haven't developed those skills.

I head up the LO's at a big DZ and we are never done learning and teaching. I do have LO's with only a few hundred hops, but they have been formally trained as LO's and are restricted to working with groups that are manageable for their LO skill sets, and coaching with them - and myself - is ongoing.

Remember, a mistake on the part of the LO - as you mentioned - can come with deadly consequences. I for one wouldn't want to trust a kid fresh out of the crate to make the right calls.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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>The reason for that is because there are way more skydivers than >tunnel instructors.
>There is stupid in all walks of life!

that's right, but for single jumper chances to encounter stupid skydiver who could endanger his life are way higher :) exactly because this disproportion :)

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stayhigh

Botched exits, kinda LO's fault.
Taking too long at the door, definitely LO's fault
People landing in high speed area, Not LO's fault
People flying every direction, Not LO's fault.



My take - In the sense that these things are all important parts of organizing --
• Botched exits, LO's fault.
• Taking too long at the door, LO's fault
• People landing in high speed area, LO's fault
• People flying every direction, LO's fault.

This is not to say that there isn't some shared blame, but if the LO doesn't hammer these in, the LO has done a poor job.

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

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darkwing


• Botched exits, LO's fault.
• Taking too long at the door, LO's fault
• People landing in high speed area, LO's fault
• People flying every direction, LO's fault.


There are so many assumptions in this, it's difficult to really understand the point you're trying to make. The implication is that the presence of a good LO removes the chance for poor decision making on the part of participants is just false. Who's to say that the newer LO didn't dirt dive a lot, hammer in canopy safety, etc. and the jumpers just didn't follow direction? The point here is that an LO should do all of these things but experience LOing doesn't remove the human factor, ego and all the other issues that can lead to the problems identified here. An experienced LO is much more likely able to identify issues, potential issues and, avoid those problems but explaining them well, planning jumps appropriate for the participant's skill level and, probably do a better job. Claiming that the list above can all be attributed to an LO really only tells half the story at best. It doesn't take Andy Malchiodi or Luis Prinetto to tell someone to follow the DZ landing rules, to fly a safe pattern, etc.

I've had my own exits go poorly, sometimes it's my fault, sometimes it's "us". If you're LOing people who don't understand how to fly a pattern, or respect other people in the sky then it's on the LO to say something but it's not the LO's responsibility. You can tell that person they're not jumping with the group anymore and that's about it. Serious safety issues should be reported to the appropriate person at the DZ - that's why dropzones have briefings and S&TAs. I don't feel that it's my responsibility to explain the basics to people who *should* already know them, I do anyway but, the point is that people who can be LOed in a group should have those requisite skills to begin with, a LO can't be held responsible for someone else's actions on their own. Note I didn't say "shouldn't" I said "can't" because I'm not in control of your canopy or your decision making.

TL:DR
I don't agree at all, sometimes exits and time in the door can be attributed to an LO not doing what they should but I can't imagine why anyone would want to point the finger at an LO for jumpers not following the DZ mandated safety rules regarding landing.

I really wish I could unsubscribe from this thread, it's pretty ridiculous.

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danielcroft


TL:DR
I don't agree at all, sometimes exits and time in the door can be attributed to an LO not doing what they should but I can't imagine why anyone would want to point the finger at an LO for jumpers not following the DZ mandated safety rules regarding landing.

I really wish I could unsubscribe from this thread, it's pretty ridiculous.



Point is more that if the LO isn't keeping an eye on that to the best of his/her ability and hammering on it post jump (to the point of possibly grounding someone from their jumps if they are willfully ignoring the DZ's safety rules), then yeah, he/she isn't doing their job, IMO. Is it the LO's fault - no, the jumper who violated the safety rules fucked that one up all by his/herself, but an LO can (and IMO should) be an important safety influence at a dropzone.

This thread did start out with a ridiculous presumption - that someone who's a highly skilled tunnel flyer is necessarily not a good organizer.

But it's also brought up some good points that organizing is about a lot more than being able to design the raddest skydives. For that, I think it's been useful, not ridiculous.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

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NWFlyer

***
TL:DR
I don't agree at all, sometimes exits and time in the door can be attributed to an LO not doing what they should but I can't imagine why anyone would want to point the finger at an LO for jumpers not following the DZ mandated safety rules regarding landing.

I really wish I could unsubscribe from this thread, it's pretty ridiculous.



Point is more that if the LO isn't keeping an eye on that to the best of his/her ability and hammering on it post jump (to the point of possibly grounding someone from their jumps if they are willfully ignoring the DZ's safety rules), then yeah, he/she isn't doing their job, IMO. Is it the LO's fault - no, the jumper who violated the safety rules fucked that one up all by his/herself, but an LO can (and IMO should) be an important safety influence at a dropzone.

This thread did start out with a ridiculous presumption - that someone who's a highly skilled tunnel flyer is necessarily not a good organizer.

But it's also brought up some good points that organizing is about a lot more than being able to design the raddest skydives. For that, I think it's been useful, not ridiculous.



The presumption that I read into the original post was that someone with sub-100 jumps (also a highly skilled tunnel flyer) is not necessarily a good Load Organiser. That is a presumption that I think many people might subscribe to.

***********************************************
I'm NOT totally useless... I can be used as a bad example

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Now here is the real question, what are we doing as a community to mitigate the potential consequences of those with high number of hours in the tunnel and a low experience in skydiving from making the mistakes outlined by the OP? Are we mentoring them from the beginning of AFF/STP? Is someone at the DZ with both a lot of tunnel and skydiving experience stepping up to be a mentor? The reality is that as iFly and soon the European tunnel market continues to expand, this will continue to present itself as a problem unless we are proactive.

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peedeepalmer

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Now here is the real question, what are we doing as a community to mitigate the potential consequences of those with high number of hours in the tunnel and a low experience in skydiving from making the mistakes outlined by the OP? Are we mentoring them from the beginning of AFF/STP? Is someone at the DZ with both a lot of tunnel and skydiving experience stepping up to be a mentor? The reality is that as iFly and soon the European tunnel market continues to expand, this will continue to present itself as a problem unless we are proactive.



Here's my take on it as witnesses by ME here in OZ and a few places that I've traveled.

Most of the freefly community is pretty tight with each other and willing to share there experience and knowledge around. Those that I know of whohave limited time in the sport but a good amount of tunnel are generally flying with a higher level of freefliers. and are pseudo (informally) mentored by them. I PERSONALLY have not seen instances where young guns are running around trying to overstep their knowledge and ability, outside of actually flying your body.
Granted that my experience may be somewhat bias, as I tend to visit training camps more than i do boogies. So when I'm at a camp there is usually world elite fliers there imparting skills and knowledge, so you would need to have you head up your arse to start second guessing the likes of Mikey Capenter or Kristian Moxness or Matt Hill.. OR Amy and Domi for that matter :ph34r::D:D:D:D
You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

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