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feuergnom

tunnel-cracks organizing ff-biggerways - wtf?

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tunneltraining is changing the game at the dz dramatically - at least in my little corner of the globe. but what I saw last weekend made me scratch my head in disbelief: tunnel-instructors with less than 100 actual jumps are organizing a boogie with 6-18 ways mostly FF & tracing. of course they know how to fly but what about the rest of the stuff that is vital for surviving a day agh the dz? proper exits and training of these on the mock-up - nonexistent? getting in the door and exit in a timely manner? nothing under 25 secs, hosing it for everybody else; see first point. canopy-skills? well its open, so what... putting sit, track and head down in one jump and start to argue with you when you dare to say that this is not the wisest of ideas because you might loose control of the line of flight? I could go on for a while with more ridiculous stuff but seriously - wtf?

needless to say that there are serious tunnel-instructors with a solid skydiving background doing perfect jobs. the guys from last weekend didn't fall into this category

*rantoff*
The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

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chuckakers

This should be an interesting thread.


no it wont be.
Those for whom this applies, don't have enough experience to argue their point effectively.
Those with enough experience are not in question.
You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

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It is a number game. It is still a skydive.

If you have way less jump # than I do, I do not care if you can out fly my ass, I'm not gonna take you seriously.
An eight year old can out fly me, BFD, survive another 1000 jumps and I'll start to pay attention to you.

You only gain skydiving knowledge through skydiving. Not in a tunnel somewhere.

Tunnel advanced this sport and at the same time same tunnel spat on faces of those who were able to fly without the aid of tunnel.

Now everyone with money can become good, it doesn't take any special skills. It used to take a special person to figure all this shit out in 1000 jumps. Now you spend $5000-10000 in a tunnel, and viola, insta-skygod status.

and yet, I have a picture of a skyventure fan as my avatar...:S oh FML......
Bernie Sanders for President 2016

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Squeak

***This should be an interesting thread.


no it wont be.


it should be. be it for the part of: is this just my perception or is this something creeping up on a bigger scale?
or: how would you deal with this if it happened at the dz you like to spend time? but please don't give me the standard answer of going someplace else, ok? you can do better than that.
or: how do dzo's see that - which would be chucks part
maybe this one: how do tunnel instructors/upjumper see this?
whats the opinion of "regular" coaches?

there's a f****** lot of questions linked to this and to dismiss everything that quickly with just one sentence is like pretending there isn't anything to talk about
The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

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feuergnom

******

there's a f****** lot of questions linked to this and to dismiss everything that quickly with just one sentence is like pretending there isn't anything to talk about



For me. there's not:D:D:D but you lot carry on and see where it goes :D;)
You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

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This will likely become more and more common, and within the next three years, expect to find more tunnel-trained people becoming AFF instructors well shy of the currently required experience, unless you start early in letting your regional director know you're opposed to the idea. It has already been put before the USPA BOD once, and barely failed. I'm betting it'll go before the BOD again in a very short time, and pass unless you speak up.

That said, there are some that feel the tunnel is a direct replacement for airtime. I'm not one of them for the reasons you mention and more. Exit, breakoff, deployment, traffic management/pattern, landing are not tunnel skills.

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bringing it to USPA/BOD/whatever won't work in europe

taking step one and talk to the dzo? well he's selling tickets and making the dough needed to keep the plane going for everybody. so that won't solve the problem either.

Quote

That said, there are some that feel the tunnel is a direct replacement for airtime. I'm not one of them for the reasons you mention and more. Exit, breakoff, deployment, traffic management/pattern, landing are not tunnel skills.



could it be that this is the reason for all the crap "we" see going on when watching people under canopy? [:/]
The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

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feuergnom

could it be that this is the reason for all the crap "we" see going on when watching people under canopy? [:/]


I've got a feeling that people in general, not just tunnel rats, spend way too little time and effort mastering basic canopy skills. Even in my short time in the sport, that development is visible.

Unfortunately, I have no real idea what to do about it...:(

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taking step one and talk to the dzo? well he's selling tickets and making the dough needed to keep the plane going for everybody. so that won't solve the problem either.



Wait till one of the tunnel rats goes in. DZO might change his tune then, and possibly in a way that leaves nobody happy.

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What's the big deal. Forty years ago I was on a 10 man team at Zhills. Had less than 100 jumps and so did most of the team. Or the people on the other 110 teams. AND no helmets, AAD's, tunnel time, RSL's or any sense at all. Only killed the weak ones.
U only make 2 jumps: the first one for some weird reason and the last one that you lived through. The rest are just filler.
scr 316

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jackwallace

What's the big deal. Forty years ago I was on a 10 man team at Zhills. Had less than 100 jumps and so did most of the team. Or the people on the other 110 teams. AND no helmets, AAD's, tunnel time, RSL's or any sense at all. Only killed the weak ones.



Absolute truth. Here's the caveat though: none of us were jumping 80 square foot crossbraced canopies in 1981 when I started.

I have a LOT of tunnel time and a LOT of skydives after 34 years in the sport. I am flown circles around by these young tunnel kids in many ways, but am saddened at how fast many of these guys downsize their skydiving gear in order to "complete the look" that took years to gain the proper experience to operate safely. Whatever; we all have to learn one way or another.

Chuck

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I have a crazy idea, but hear me out.

You could, you know, talk to these tunnel "cracks". Maybe, I don't know, ask them their experience. Have a conversation, instead of starting some vague thread on DZ.com.

I am pretty sure I know which event you're referring to, and thus which "cracks", and you might be surprised to know that aside from one or two exceptions, they are pretty experienced skydivers.

Just a thought.

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This has already happened a few years ago. A former president of the UPSA ran the course and signed off on two jumpers that were short of the free fall requirements for their AFF rating and counted their tunnel experience as time for ratings. I was told a waiver was asked for for this but it sat around at the USPA long enough that the jumpers had done enough AFF jumps as an instructor at that point that they had completed enough instructional jumps that they had the requirements met and the waiver was no longer needed.

I can't wait for someone with 100 jumps and 5 hours in the tunnel to be granted an tandem rating since tunnel time is a "substitute" for free fall according to a few people on the board.
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

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3mpire

Quote

taking step one and talk to the dzo? well he's selling tickets and making the dough needed to keep the plane going for everybody. so that won't solve the problem either.



Wait till one of the tunnel rats goes in. DZO might change his tune then, and possibly in a way that leaves nobody happy.

it already happened [:/]
scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

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Hooknswoop

Did you witness anything unsafe from this group?

Derek V



that depends on what you call unsafe. things that come to my mind are
• botched exits as seen on the debrief-video as a direct result from missing detailed and in-depth exit-briefings - funneled exits can become messy rather quickly
• groups taking ages getting in the door and cramming in the back of the plane - can anybody spell stall?
• people having no business being there landing in the high speedarea
• people landing in opposing directions. guy I tried to talk with just brushed it off with some silly remark - I thought that was a dead horse but apparently I am wrong [:/]

to cover and to prevent stuff like this is - in my book - the responsibility of the person briefing the jumps. at least when you wanna have a beer with everybody after jumping has finished

others saw different things but not having witnessed that stuff I won't comment
The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

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stayhigh

Botched exits, kinda LO's fault.



if you brief the jump you brief the exit. a well briefed and executed exit results in a cleaner dive, thus a higher learning experience, doesn't it?


stayhigh

People landing in high speed area, Not LO's fault



a good coach also puts great emphasis on the canopy section - IF he cares about his group AND has the knowledge AND watches what's going on after he's landed



stayhigh

People flying every direction, Not LO's fault.



see above. but what do I know, I'm just a boring old fart from the last millennium....
The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

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piisfish

******it already happened.



Who and when was this?
Glen Hobbs
at Snohomish, WA
31 May 2013
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=4493965;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

I read that thread initially. As I re-read it it makes more sense, but how do we know that having so much experience in a tunnel, and much less experience in skydiving caused his attitude? He seemed like a lot of skydivers we have read about. I think we all wish we had the answers.

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stayhigh

Botched exits, kinda LO's fault.
Taking too long at the door, definitely LO's fault
People landing in high speed area, Not LO's fault
People flying every direction, Not LO's fault.

well it is a LO, not a Freefall Only Organizer... Shit can happen, results may vary, but errors should happen only once. And then be corrected by the LO
scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

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ebusto

I have a crazy idea, but hear me out.

You could, you know, talk to these tunnel "cracks". Maybe, I don't know, ask them their experience. Have a conversation, instead of starting some vague thread on DZ.com.

I am pretty sure I know which event you're referring to, and thus which "cracks", and you might be surprised to know that aside from one or two exceptions, they are pretty experienced skydivers.

Just a thought.


I'm with Busto on this one, try talking to people before you throw your toys on the ground online.

As far as "I won't take advice from anyone with fewer jumps than me" - that's an extremely short sighted attitude. Your experience allows you to recognize good ideas and use them, it's wisdom that you learn with experience, at least it should be.

I've been on plenty of jumps with extremely experienced organizers where exits don't go to plan, should we pull their "organizer" card? It's happened when I'm LOing as well, is it a failure of the LO when someone doesn't perform? It could be, sure. I know I haven't explained well enough on occasion but I also know that human nature dictates a certain failure rate, it's natural.

What would be more useful in terms of evaluating whether there was some issue with the way the event was organized (I know a bunch of people who went, I know the organizers and I was going to go but for some other plans I had) is whether or not the important points of landing directions and canopy safety were discussed and whether the skill level of the people attending the camp were in need of further pointers AND whether or not, after poor landing choices, the organizers spoke with the people in question. After failed exits, how was that addressed? There's more than enough experience among the organizers to address these issues without requiring some magical jump number be reached.

Of course, if it were me, I'd talk with the people who were making poor decisions myself before I'd feel like an DZ.com or facebook post was the right way to address the issue. On the other hand, if the OP just came here to rant and not achieve anything, I suppose I should just say "you're a grown ass man, you can do what you want".

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