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DJL

How AFF-I's wearing cameras are going to kill students.

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It took you less than 100 jumps to learn what?....how to act like a know it all and give crappy advice about getting good instructional video from an inside mounted camera on aff? DSE is right...you don't know what you don't know..... Also if what you took from my post was a learning lesson about cropping the sensor on the GoPro then you missed the point. Its about risk mitigation and the risk of that ill placed camera is not worth the very limited view you will get. On any crop mode.
i'll huff and I'll puff and I'll burn your packing tent down

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fincher

Just instruct and don't worry about some terrible go pro perspective that is so skewed from the wide angle that it is not even accurate depiction of body position.



You said that and I provided a way to minimize the the distortion so it gives a more accurate depiction of body position. I am not contesting that putting anything on your chest strap/mudflap as an AFF-I is a bad idea.

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JWest

***Just instruct and don't worry about some terrible go pro perspective that is so skewed from the wide angle that it is not even accurate depiction of body position.



You said that and I provided a way to minimize the the distortion so it gives a more accurate depiction of body position. I am not contesting that putting anything on your chest strap/mudflap as an AFF-I is a bad idea.

Without the wide-angle on inside vide you'll only have footage of the side of the jumper's container on a head mount, maybe a little more for a chest mount.
"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

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exactly DJL. the narrower crop will leave you missing most of the key parts of the jump that need correction. Also the angle from the chest mount can still be hard to critique small imperfections in the body position of the student. Not to mention there is still distortion at 127 degrees.
Fin....you are being a fool. I didnt say ban chest mount altimeters, but I simply dont recommend them for early level AFF's. I dont care how slim the chance is....Its one that is not necessary to take. Same as wearing the camera. Wearing a camera does not help me on a jump at all. It may benefit the student some but they can learn without it. If the risk is an increase in potential complication/risk of death then the math is simple. The risk just does not equal the reward. You can ignore and be a smart ass about people sharing potential hazards all you want. AFF can be a close contact sport and I was simply raising awareness of potential hazards from any non-streamlined equipment. During a harness hold AFF jump all this equipment takes on a new "risk" factor and its usefulness should be highly weighed against its potential risk. The bodies dont have to "pile up" for it to be something that needs to be considered. If bodies piling up is your barometer for risk mitigation then you are living in a fantasy world of your own mortality. Nothing in this sport really has bodies piling up but putting a camera or altimeter through a students reserve handle is one link in an accident chain that I plan to remove from the equation. For me I think learning from others mistakes and realizing that it can happen to you is crucial in putting the odds of survival in my favor.
i'll huff and I'll puff and I'll burn your packing tent down

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>Without the wide-angle on inside vide you'll only have footage of the side of the
>jumper's container on a head mount, maybe a little more for a chest mount.

There was a saying a while back that DZ.com can be summed up by a guy with 50 jumps telling a guy with 25 jumps how to fly a 3:1 loaded Velocity. Here we are seeing a similar effect for student video.

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billvon

>Without the wide-angle on inside vide you'll only have footage of the side of the
>jumper's container on a head mount, maybe a little more for a chest mount.

There was a saying a while back that DZ.com can be summed up by a guy with 50 jumps telling a guy with 25 jumps how to fly a 3:1 loaded Velocity. Here we are seeing a similar effect for student video.



Quote

how to act like a know it all and give crappy advice about getting good instructional video from an inside mounted camera on aff?



You guys are impressive. Apparently I'm incapable on knowing what I wrote. I didn't know I said anything besides a way to reduce distortion. Stop reading into things that are not there. I did not say it would work as a head mount, I did not say it would work at a chest mount, I didn't say anything about getting instructional video, I didn't mention any of that. I literary said nothing more than how to minimize the distortion.

There should be two responses to my comment, you either agree that reducing the field of view reduces distortion, or you disagree. However since I provided proof from GoPro there is really only one response that makes sense.

But since you guys apparently like to over analyze every comment I'll make it easy for you.

Yes or no, does reducing field of view on a GoPro minimize distortion? If you are replying to me I expect one word and nothing more.

Yes, I know I'm being condescending and that if you respond to me in will be lengthy about "not knowing what I dont know" and while you are at it why don't you tell me "What I don't know, about what I don't know" so maybe I could learn a thing or two. Unfortunately that probably won't happen but if it does I will gladly answer confirming the things I've never thought about, read about, heard, discussed, or seen.

Or best yet you could just ignore me and continue the meaningful discussion that was happening before I commented.

Thank you, and have a nice day.

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Can we please ban this 100 jump wonder from the instructor forum. He isn't soliciting advice like a student might, and he isn't adding value or knowledge like an instructor. Bad enough we have to put up with his nonsense in other topical forums.
"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

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When I was a student one of my AFF-I wore a camera. They were usually on the reserve side. -if my memory serves me correctly- After the jump we would look over the footage and they would ask me how I felt/what I believed I was doing. They would then show me what I was really doing. It was a valuable tool so I could correlate my actions to the responses in the air. I hope that AFF-I can come up with a safe way to continue using inside video because to me it was a useful learning tool.

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you would have learned without it as well. For me, all the extra instructional value of the camera, for every student I take from now to the end of the world is not worth one single entanglement or snag that could kill me or the student. Call me selfish but I couldnt care less if it takes you an extra jump to figure out your leg position. I have nothing to gain by wearing a camera and everything to lose. That being said, once off the harness hold jumps I think the risk is greatly diminished, but for cat A's and such........forget that nonsense...you have no idea what you are getting into.
i'll huff and I'll puff and I'll burn your packing tent down

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billvon

>Yes, I know I'm being condescending

>maybe I could learn a thing or two. Unfortunately that probably won't happen

I think you've just summed up most of your posts here.



Context, nice try though.

Quote

Yes, I know I'm being condescending and that if you respond to me it will be lengthy about "not knowing what I dont know" and while you are at it why don't you tell me "What I don't know, about what I don't know" so maybe I could learn a thing or two. Unfortunately that probably won't happen but if it does I will gladly answer confirming the things I've never thought about, read about, heard, discussed, or seen.



Them telling me what I don't know is the unlikely thing to happen. Again, nice try.

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JWest

***>Yes, I know I'm being condescending

>maybe I could learn a thing or two. Unfortunately that probably won't happen

I think you've just summed up most of your posts here.



Context, nice try though.



You know, earlier in the day I was about to admonish Bill for taking some of that out of context, but you seem to be able to take care of yourself rather well, so I guess I don't need to do that now.

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peek

******>Yes, I know I'm being condescending

>maybe I could learn a thing or two. Unfortunately that probably won't happen

I think you've just summed up most of your posts here.



Context, nice try though.



You know, earlier in the day I was about to admonish Bill for taking some of that out of context, but you seem to be able to take care of yourself rather well, so I guess I don't need to do that now.

Thanks.

Also BillVon, don't forget you said this.

How do you keep a level head when dealing with all the wild opinions?
"Mainly by realizing that the same people who are calling the moderators names online are generally good people when you meet them in person."

While I am directly addressing you as a person and not an account I will add that I've read many of the articles you wrote. They contain a lot of good information.

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I'm sure you are a good person when people are talking to you in person - and I hope you are more willing to learn in person than you present yourself here. You admitted to trolling in another forum on this topic; hopefully we won't see any more of that.

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billvon

I'm sure you are a good person when people are talking to you in person - and I hope you are more willing to learn in person than you present yourself here. You admitted to trolling in another forum on this topic; hopefully we won't see any more of that.



I love learning and I never intended for my post in this thread to be combative. I just wanted to correct the statement that the gopro was not a good tool for judging body positions due to the wide angle. That is all I wanted to do. I though it would be useful information that even with the wide angle the GoPro software suit has the capability of minimizing the distortion. Depending on mounting location the settings on the actual camera could be changed to reduce the distortion as well. I figured there was a possibility that not everyone reading this thread was aware of that and it would be useful information to them.

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chuckakers

but it's not the fact that this instructor had a camera that was the problem. Had the instructor had a snagless mount there would not have been an issue.

Yep, I couldn't agree more. And that video showcases the very reason I don't take my GoPro on AFF jumps.

But a small, SNAGPROOF camera. Game on. Inside video isn't perfect, but it's still nice to have and a good instructional tool. I wouldn't mind that at all.

BTW, small thing, someone mentioned the main side AFF I not watching their altimeter. Depending on the student's body position and how well they are flying, I often can read theirs very easily. I'm sure mos:)

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Anyone wonder why I gave up moderating on this site after eight years of stuff like this???

At any rate: I've worn a side-mount camera (Contour) on every single work jump I've made in the past five years at our facility, as has every other instructor here. We are charged with instructing four students from zero to A license. We do four loads back-to-back-to-back-to-back and then debrief all four guys, then go up and do it all again. No way in the world you are going to effectively debrief four students without that inside video. No room on the plane for outside video and in my experience all they do is get in your way. We do one-person AFF here. No one at this facility has ever had a camera snag which resulted in losing a helmet or any other type of malfunction. Outside video on Cat A and Cat B non-release AFF is fine, but I'd never recommend outside video on any release dive.

Chuck
D-12501, AFF/SL/TM-I, PRO, S&TA

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SkymonkeyONE

Anyone wonder why I gave up moderating on this site after eight years of stuff like this???



It's also a great example of the perils of offering expert advice online.

For the record, DSE was correct about distortion.

What a choice! Educate someone who's quoting consumer pamphlets at you so they're better armed the next time they spread nonsense or walk away.

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JWest



From GoPros website.

"The reason GoPro videos have a slight fish-eye effect, is due to the wide angle lens on the camera. It's actually called a barrel distortion, which is a result of having the 170 degree lens. This curve/barrel distortion allows for the 170 degree ultra wide angle shots that GoPro is known for.
You can slightly reduce this effect on the HD HERO Original camera by filming in 1080p (30 FPS) mode, which brings the Field Of View (FOV) down to 127 degrees. With the HD HERO2, HERO3, HERO3+, and HERO4 camera, you also have the option at 1080p to switch to a medium (127 degrees) or narrow (90 degrees) FOV. The HERO3 White Edition camera only films video and takes photos in the WIDE FOV.

If you want to get rid of the barrel distortion or "fisheye" look of your GoPro videos, you can use GoPro Studio to import the footage and check the "Remove Fisheye" checkbox. This will allow you to export the videos without a barrel distortion or "fisheye" look."

It took 1000 jumps for some people? I guess I'm just lucky that it happen to me back before I had 100 jumps.



The irony here, is that you still don't know what you don't know, but feel like you're a hero because you can copy/paste from GoPro's website. The issue unrelated to what one can or can't do with the angle.

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DSE

***

From GoPros website.

"The reason GoPro videos have a slight fish-eye effect, is due to the wide angle lens on the camera. It's actually called a barrel distortion, which is a result of having the 170 degree lens. This curve/barrel distortion allows for the 170 degree ultra wide angle shots that GoPro is known for.
You can slightly reduce this effect on the HD HERO Original camera by filming in 1080p (30 FPS) mode, which brings the Field Of View (FOV) down to 127 degrees. With the HD HERO2, HERO3, HERO3+, and HERO4 camera, you also have the option at 1080p to switch to a medium (127 degrees) or narrow (90 degrees) FOV. The HERO3 White Edition camera only films video and takes photos in the WIDE FOV.

If you want to get rid of the barrel distortion or "fisheye" look of your GoPro videos, you can use GoPro Studio to import the footage and check the "Remove Fisheye" checkbox. This will allow you to export the videos without a barrel distortion or "fisheye" look."

It took 1000 jumps for some people? I guess I'm just lucky that it happen to me back before I had 100 jumps.



The irony here, is that you still don't know what you don't know, but feel like you're a hero because you can copy/paste from GoPro's website. The issue unrelated to what one can or can't do with the angle.


Don't worry DSE I fully know the limitations to what I posted. But of course you want to feel intellectually superior so you keep spouting the same nonsense without providing a base or elaboration on what you think I don't know.

I never addressed the snag hazard or mounting location of the camera. I only disputed the claim that due to the distortion cause by the camera the video was not a good indicator of body position. Thanks to the GoPro settings and the GoPro video suit you can minimize distortion. Since you can use the setting and software to minimize distortion you can get a more accurate depiction of body position.

Stop arguing with me about statements that are completely accurate. I disputed a very simple claim. In this exact post I am not commenting on mounting location, mounting style, or even use of inside video for AFF instructors. I am only commenting on distortion and body position, nothing more.

Hey, DSE, you are an experience camera flyer and have experience with gopros. Answer me this. Can you minimize distortion on a GoPro by changing the settings and using the GoPro software suit? (That is a yes or no question and only one of them is right. If you pick the right answer you are going to agree with my claim. If you pick the wrong answer you are going to look ignorant with the information previously quoted. Your choice.)

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Mods - I read the instructors forum regularly to get information from people with instructional ratings. It's a useful resource of relatively high quality information.

I rarely post here because I don't currently hold a rating.


Can you make sure this thread doesn't devolve into another JWest Camera thread please? In the previous one the signal to noise ratio was ridiculous.

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yoink

Mods - I read the instructors forum regularly to get information from people with instructional ratings. It's a useful resource of relatively high quality information.

I rarely post here because I don't currently hold a rating.


Can you make sure this thread doesn't devolve into another JWest Camera thread please? In the previous one the signal to noise ratio was ridiculous.



That won't happen in this thread because I'm not messing with people. Regardless I am not going to sit by and let DSE act the way he is just because he is a more experienced skydiver than me.

As a student I thought that inside video helped me learn faster. The instructor in this video obviously had a poorly designed mount. All people need to be aware of the snag hazards associated with a camera.

Go ahead, keep disagreeing with me or dismissing what I say because of the camera thread. But do not disagree with things that are correct jest because you don't like me.

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JWest


That won't happen in this thread because I'm not messing with people.


Sorry, but evidence suggests you are still sharing bogus information and reacting vocally and negatively when called on it.

JWest

...let DSE act the way he is...


I don't believe many others perceive this is what's going on.

JWest

keep disagreeing with me or dismissing what I say because of the camera thread



What you say gets dismissed because you post nonsense for example about optical distortion being corrected by a sensor crop, then reinforcing your error and claiming victory with marketing literature that's dumbed down for the non expert.

yoink's post should have prompted some introspection, sadly it did not.

Look it's uncomfortable to admit you've posted some bollocks, but we've all done it. Own it and move on, you'll be better respected.

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