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pchapman

Sideslides - teaching technique?

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Sideslides are part of the RW instruction prior to the A license in Canada, and I was wondering about others' techniques.

A standard one is to combine the upper body actions for a turn in one direction (twist the shoulders or dip an arm or however the DZ teaches) , and the lower body actions for a turn in the opposite direction. That uses two things the students have already learned, in a novel combination.

But once I had tried something simpler once with the arms (in addition to the normal leg turn input), just shifting the arms sideways to push more off the air to one side - see the pic. A couple students I tried it with seemed to pick it up quickly.

On the other hand, that arm motion isn't standard for teaching turns, so I'm not sure I want to teach it. Possibly useful, but less standard.

It isn't like nobody uses it -- it does look like an input I've seen for stylists turning or maybe even RW guys sidesliding fast to a dock.

Anyone got good ideas on teaching side slides?

[inline sideslide-arms.jpg]

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I had a lot of trouble with side-slides.

I finally did some coached tunnel time just before Christmas.

The coach told me to "push off the wall" with both my arm and leg.
As in, to slide right, keep my right leg and arm "normal", but push outward with my left arm and leg. Very similar to your drawing.
It took a couple tries to get a good stable slide (no turning), but I had it down a lot faster than I expected. Being in the tunnel with the close reference perspective helped a lot too.

Just my opinion, worth exactly what you paid for it (maybe not even that much) ;)
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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pchapman

Sideslides are part of the RW instruction prior to the A license in Canada



Sideslides are part of the Group RW endorsement required for the B CoP. Not required prior to the A.
"It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg

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One of the coaches at my dropzone explained how to do leg turns for my 25th jump (had all other A license requirements done). She also mentioned that side slides are similar, only the arm and leg input is in the same direction. I only got to practice leg turns on that jump, but on subsequent jumps I started trying to figure out side slides on my own. I did this by initiating the leg motion and then shifting my arms to counter the turn, exactly as in your diagram. This method seemed more natural to me than dipping the arm. After a bit more practice, I had no problems maintaining my heading or introducing controlled turns into the slide, so I'm a fan of this method from the student's perspective.

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BrianM

Sideslides are part of the Group RW endorsement required for the B CoP. Not required prior to the A.



Oh, right.

I keep forgetting that as I'm at a DZ that has always required them and diagonal slides for the A, possibly due to a misinterpretation of RW requirements many years ago, that never got changed.

Maybe it from when there was only one RW endorsement. So students get faced with pins, levels, turn & dock, sideslides & dock, and diagonals & dock in their minimum of 5 RW jumps for the A. Pretty tough, so the instructors go easy on the latter couple requirements.

Ref for Canadians:
Both PIM 1 and PIM 2A have the skills grid that show what's needed for the A and B CoP.

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pchapman

I keep forgetting that as I'm at a DZ that has always required them and diagonal slides for the A, possibly due to a misinterpretation of RW requirements many years ago, that never got changed.



It's great to teach more than the minimum requirements, but it sounds like your DZ is refusing to sign off on endorsements (and hence CoP applications) even though all the requirements have been met? :S

How many jumps does it take your students to get an A?

What do you do for the Group RW endorsement, since you've already pretty much covered its material in the 1:1 endorsement?

pchapman

Maybe it from when there was only one RW endorsement. So students get faced with pins, levels, turn & dock, sideslides & dock, and diagonals & dock in their minimum of 5 RW jumps for the A. Pretty tough, so the instructors go easy on the latter couple requirements.



The old RW endorsement didn't require any of that stuff either. It was pretty much identical to the current 1:1 RW endorsement (the biggest difference is it only required a minimum of 4 coached jumps vs the current 5).
"It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg

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@brian
Well it is a bit of a head scratcher. All the requirements are posted on the wall on carefully designed progression posters and that's the way it is. The A CoP application just has a signoff for the 5 (passed) RW jumps so nobody is any wiser. Only the instructors from time to time remember that it isn't quite like the CSPA system.

I haven't polled other instructors lately but it can take a few repeats to pass the tougher RW levels. Still, instructors try to look for a very basic capability and not insist on perfection.

For the B, instructors get a little tougher on seeing the same skills demonstrated to a higher standard.

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Thanks Peter. I'll let the discussion get back to teaching side slides - I don't want to hijack the thread. Looking forward to what others have to say on the topic.
"It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg

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A coach I really like explains it this way:

Your hands and feet form 4 corners of a rectangle. Wherever your center of gravity is within that rectangle is the direction you want to go. So when you bring R hand and R leg in and push L hand an L leg out (like in your drawing), you're biasing your CoG on the right side of the rectangle, and you're going to go right.

Indeed, this explanation works for forward and backward motion just as well as sidesliding. (Turns are a slightly different story but if you think about it, it's a good way of teaching why centerpoint turns work the way they do.)

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BIGUN


This is exactly how I teach side slides. You can also add a slight bit of paddling with the forearms and elbows once they get the leg and knee move down. This technique only works if you are teaching the proper leg/knee turn and keeping a straight spine. (no looking over the shoulder or elbow in the direction you want to go)

When newer jumpers attend my tunnel camps, I spend a fair amount of time breaking habits they learned on their progression to what ever license they have or need. The disadvantage of learning the "push off the wall" technique (which -like most long time jumpers - is how I originally learned) is that when we are doing FS, we want to use our hands and forearms primarily for taking and presenting grips.

By using the old school technique we are out of the best body position for grips, when we finish our slide. We then spend extra time getting back to our neutral body position. As you can see in this video, once the person has stopped the move they are immediately ready for grips.

I heard BC in an interview say he would like to see a more up to date and unified method for teaching these skills to people early on, so they don't have to relearn them once they get further down the road.

I have no doubt many will say that this is too advanced - but I disagree. I honestly believe it doesn't take any more time or effort to teach them the correct way - right out of the gate.

It's my experience the instructors who argue this, are those who don't have these new technique skills themselves.

Good on you PC for asking
Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

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Skydivesg

he would like to see a more up to date and unified method for teaching these skills to people early on, so they don't have to relearn them once they get further down the road.



That's a topic on its own that applies to many skills taught!

Does one start with a simple method to make it quick to teach and learn, and later transition to a trickier more advanced method? Or use only the more modern advanced method from the beginning?

At smaller DZ's it can be tough to get good information to trickle down, even in the era of youtube.

So far in this thread I've learned that the 'push to the side' sideslide is both a very handy technique and an antiquated technique (...depending on one's requirements). No simple answers. :)

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Skydivesg



This is exactly how I teach side slides.
.
.
.
.

I have no doubt many will say that this is too advanced - but I disagree. I honestly believe it doesn't take any more time or effort to teach them the correct way - right out of the gate.

It's my experience the instructors who argue this, are those who don't have these new technique skills themselves.




I have the same experience here as Skydivesg when teaching mantis camps in the tunnel. The technique does translate to teaching it anywhere and worth teaching right the first time.

One other modification (in addition to the added forearm 'paddling' input already mentioned) that helps some to 'get it' is to use the hips a bit - hip bump (or hulu bump) in the direction of the slide - it helps trigger the correct leg and arm movements as a single thought, rather than two thoughts.


pretty easy to train with low timers, a lot harder to train for people with a lot of jumps and bad habits

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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pchapman

'push to the side' sideslide is both a very handy technique and an antiquated technique



is a very handy and antiquated technique - both are correct (and in freeflying, the old sit suits did a great job, at the cost of more advanced skills and sometimes healthy shoulder joints.... :P)

it works really nice, much like using a sledgehammer to crack an egg. but while you are standing on roller skates.

(it simply spreads the body out too much and removes usable range of motion - yes it works and is easy to teach and learn. But wouldn't it be nicer to be able to make the same translation with a tight and more manuverable technique? I think so.)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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evan85

A coach I really like explains it this way:

Your hands and feet form 4 corners of a rectangle. Wherever your center of gravity is within that rectangle is the direction you want to go. So when you bring R hand and R leg in and push L hand an L leg out (like in your drawing), you're biasing your CoG on the right side of the rectangle, and you're going to go right.

Indeed, this explanation works for forward and backward motion just as well as sidesliding. (Turns are a slightly different story but if you think about it, it's a good way of teaching why centerpoint turns work the way they do.)



Only thing I'd change, Id' say center of pressure rather than center of gravity though. But yeah, generally speaking, that's the idea.
I'm standing on the edge
With a vision in my head
My body screams release me
My dreams they must be fed... You're in flight.

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Di0

***A coach I really like explains it this way:

Your hands and feet form 4 corners of a rectangle. Wherever your center of gravity is within that rectangle is the direction you want to go. So when you bring R hand and R leg in and push L hand an L leg out (like in your drawing), you're biasing your CoG on the right side of the rectangle, and you're going to go right.

Indeed, this explanation works for forward and backward motion just as well as sidesliding. (Turns are a slightly different story but if you think about it, it's a good way of teaching why centerpoint turns work the way they do.)



Only thing I'd change, Id' say center of pressure rather than center of gravity though. But yeah, generally speaking, that's the idea.

Yes, that is more technically correct, but I think more students will be familiar with "center of gravity" :). Regardless, I should note that this is obviously a "beginner" way to think about side slides; i.e. once more advanced you should be doing more knee/elbow dropping as in the video that was posted above. But I think this is a really intuitive way to teach the technique that folks not experienced with flying their bodies can understand (that is, understand not only what to do but why it works).

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evan85

.............. But I think this is a really intuitive way to teach the technique that folks not experienced with flying their bodies can understand (that is, understand not only what to do but why it works).



I always teach "why" something works -whether coaching in the tunnel, free fall, EPs or coaching canopy flight. It encourages people to use their critical thinking skills. And I still believe that teaching the correct modern way of doing things the first time, builds better skydivers. JMHO

On the up side - people who are being taught the old school way -certainly provides an endless supply of people willing to enroll in tunnel camps to learn the updated more efficient way.
Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

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My method is to teach dropping a knee and elbow on the same side.
By putting someone on a raised creeper/padded tuffet, it's easy to help them understand what the wind will do to their body, particularly if the raised creeper has wheels.

The technique is similar for wingsuiting.

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