Get rid of student "self supervision" terminology?

[Deisel 35]

One of my pet peeves is telling a student that they are cleared to self supervision. I believe that this particular wording is abstract at best, and flat out incorrect at worst. I tell them that they are 'self supervised', but not really. The wording should be more clear.

A student is never self supervised. Per the SIM, student training must be supervised by an appropriately rated instructor. How is this SELF supervision?

Telling a student that they are self supervised implies that they can do whatever they like. When in truth (IMO), they should be discussing every jump, at least in passing, with an instructor. I believe that this leads to a couple of negative outcomes. Less respect for coaches, students on jumps beyond their experience level, and wasted time, money, and effort punching holes in the sky, are a few that come to mind.

At the next BOD meeting I'm considering offering a proposal. Rename 'self supervision' to something that is more descriptive of what is actually taking place. Call it 'reduced supervision', 'coach supervision', 'post AFF status', or something.

Thoughts/opinions? Flame on!

D

The brave may not live forever, but the timid never live at all.

[councilman24 36]

In the days of static line training self supervision meant they could get on the 182 by themselves, spot good enough and work on their turns, style maneuvers and maybe two way. The term was correct and fine. It also meant they were no longer paying student prices. Of course "coaches" were the former world champions who were willing to jump with any newbie, no jump ticket let alone wage expected. Now newbies probably can get into too much trouble with nobody realizing it.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[chuckakers 370]

Deisel

One of my pet peeves is telling a student that they are cleared to self supervision. I believe that this particular wording is abstract at best, and flat out incorrect at worst. I tell them that they are 'self supervised', but not really. The wording should be more clear.

A student is never self supervised. Per the SIM, student training must be supervised by an appropriately rated instructor. How is this SELF supervision?

Telling a student that they are self supervised implies that they can do whatever they like. When in truth (IMO), they should be discussing every jump, at least in passing, with an instructor. I believe that this leads to a couple of negative outcomes. Less respect for coaches, students on jumps beyond their experience level, and wasted time, money, and effort punching holes in the sky, are a few that come to mind.

At the next BOD meeting I'm considering offering a proposal. Rename 'self supervision' to something that is more descriptive of what is actually taking place. Call it 'reduced supervision', 'coach supervision', 'post AFF status', or something.

Thoughts/opinions? Flame on!

D

In general, I see self supervision similar to private pilot students being cleared for solo flights. They haven't yet earned a license but have demonstrated enough competence to perform in a limited capacity without direct supervision.

I'm not sure that what we call it really matters beyond semantics as long as it's understood what the term means and what privileges it affords.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[peek 20]

Deisel

At the next BOD meeting I'm considering offering a proposal. Rename 'self supervision' to something that is more descriptive of what is actually taking place. Call it 'reduced supervision', 'coach supervision', 'post AFF status', or something.

I am leaving early for the weekend, but call me at the office next week. (800) 435-1975

I initiated some changes a while back to the SIM glossary (and I think to some specific areas of the SIM) regarding this terminology and what it means.

It is always good to discuss things like this once in a while.

Anyone else reading this, please check out the definitions and usage in the SIM and discuss it here. It is always good to get a number of opinions from experienced instructors about how this kind of thing is being applied in the field.

Note: There is a definition for "self-supervision" too.

[riggerrob 558]

....

In general, I see self supervision similar to private pilot students being cleared for solo flights.

............................................................................

For many years, CSPA offered "Solo Certificates" to PFF graduates who had more than 10 jumps. They had to complete a list of planning, aircraft, freefall, canopy and post-jump (e.g. packing) tasks before they took an oral quiz. After submitting a bit of paperwork to CSPA HQ, they were allowed to ride in the airplane alone, but they still had to do a few more jumps - with a coach - to complete all the skills required for an "A Certificate" (minimum 25 jumps).

[IanHarrop 37]

here's a link to CSPA's SOLO Certificate info http://www.cspa.ca/en/cwc/cops/solo-certificate

"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy

[DJL 232]

It's not a bad phrase but the definition could use work. When I'm talking to a student about self-supervision I tell them it means it's their responsibility to plan a dive and talk to instructors/staff/pilot about gear, spot, and their dive flow.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[douwanto 22]

AMEN.

Uncle/GrandPapa Whit
Unico Rodriguez # 245
Muff Brother # 2421

[peek 20]

Some comments and notes:

Please remember that only the BSRs are required (of USPA members).

The word "supervision" is used in many places and its meaning in the SIM Glossary is specific. (I don't think this discussion includes the intent of that term.)

The phrase "self-supervision" is used only 4 times in the SIM, and is also in the SIM Glossary. The intent of self-supervision is to allow a student to jump by themselves, but this requires a number of things to be done to insure/increase the safety of those jumps. These things are listed in the Introduction section of Category E in the ISP section of the SIM.

It is my opinion that allowing a student to jump by themselves a few times using "self-supervision" if they wish can be very beneficial. It removes the pressure of having to perform for the instructor, and allows them to learn to relax and be independent. After they make a number of self-supervised jumps, I would expect instructors or DZ management to notice how many of this type of jump they are doing, and encourage them to start working on license requirements, perhaps with a coach. In other words, don't just turn 'em loose to fend for themselves.

I thought that we had removed all instances of the phrase "freefall self-supervision", or "self-supervision in freefall", but a few remain. It is my opinion that the phrase "self-supervision" is sufficient. Revisiting that verbiage might be a good idea.

[jlmiracle 7]

peek

***At the next BOD meeting I'm considering offering a proposal. Rename 'self supervision' to something that is more descriptive of what is actually taking place. Call it 'reduced supervision', 'coach supervision', 'post AFF status', or something.

I am leaving early for the weekend, but call me at the office next week. (800) 435-1975

I initiated some changes a while back to the SIM glossary (and I think to some specific areas of the SIM) regarding this terminology and what it means.

It is always good to discuss things like this once in a while.

Anyone else reading this, please check out the definitions and usage in the SIM and discuss it here. It is always good to get a number of opinions from experienced instructors about how this kind of thing is being applied in the field.

Note: There is a definition for "self-supervision" too.

I'm gonna write "Gary said" instead of self supervision. LOL Good to see you and jump with you Gary!

Judy.

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[rehmwa 2]

DJL

It's not a bad phrase but the definition could use work. When I'm talking to a student about self-supervision I tell them it means it's their responsibility to plan a dive and talk to instructors/staff/pilot about gear, spot, and their dive flow.

this ^

I'd rather just be clear to the student what they are allowed to do at this time, or clarify what I mean by 'self supervision' rather than let them interpret it in some odd way.

I doubt any good instructor just tosses that label out and then walks away without any further insight.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[tred 0]

when I graduated aff my instructor told me aff was to teach me how to not die and now I could jump by myself or with an instructor until I learned how to not kill others. that made it pretty clear who I could jump with

[JohnMitchell 14]

tred

when I graduated aff my instructor told me aff was to teach me how to not die and now I could jump by myself or with an instructor until I learned how to not kill others. that made it pretty clear who I could jump with

I like that. Thanks.

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

Let me start out by stating that I am a huge proponent of the four-page ISP program and was lucky enough to to be working at a dropzone which implimented it the day USPA adopted it (Raeford Parachute Center, under Tony Thacker). I grew up on a SL progression, Cessna DZ in Alabama.

I've been at this instructing thing a very-long time (over 33 years) and I agree that the terminology needs to be updated or at least better defined to the student. I prefer the term "cleared to Coaching" when passing students from Cat E3 onward.

What's more important to me, though, is sitting them down after that E3 and discussing the next, logical steps. This, very-often, includes one or two solos as confidence builders prior to jumping into Cat F, G,. and H tasks. Again: if you are using the four-page card this alleviates a lot of the "what do I do next?" questions.

It gripes my ass to no end how many dropzones still do seven level AFF and proudly announce over the intercom that "so and so has just graduated AFF!" then they leave them to their own devices with no clear path toward gaining their A license. EVERY dropzone whicjh trains students should have a start-to-finish 25 jump program and the staffing and desire to get those students ALL THE WAY THROUGH that program.

Chuck Blue, D-12501
AFF/SL/TM-I, PRO, S&TA, FAA Senior Rigger
Coolidge, AZ

[peek 20]

SkymonkeyONE

It gripes my ass to no end how many dropzones still do seven level AFF and proudly announce over the intercom that "so and so has just graduated AFF!" then they leave them to their own devices with no clear path toward gaining their A license. EVERY dropzone which trains students should have a start-to-finish 25 jump program and the staffing and desire to get those students ALL THE WAY THROUGH that program.

Chuck, check out this nearly 10 year old thread where we were talking about similar things: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1456565#1456565

It looks like maybe not much progress has been made at some dropzones. I guess some are just not going to do the work to train students well, ISP or otherwise.

I know of other dropzones that still use "7 level AFF", but they have added the necessary instruction to those levels to make them safer, and the instruction for the remaining jumps for the license is very good.

Making announcements over the PA that say a student has "graduated AFF" seems ridiculous in this day and age, but oh well, that's marketing.

[fencebuster 7]

+1 If the school's goal is to get them off AFF without a plan to get them their A license, they are doing the students a disservice.

Charlie Gittins, 540-327-2208
AFF-I, Sigma TI, IAD-I
MEI, CFI-I, Senior Rigger
Former DZO, Blue Ridge Skydiving Adventures

[jlmiracle 7]

SkymonkeyONE

.

It gripes my ass to no end how many dropzones still do seven level AFF and proudly announce over the intercom that "so and so has just graduated AFF!" then they leave them to their own devices with no clear path toward gaining their A license. EVERY dropzone whicjh trains students should have a start-to-finish 25 jump program and the staffing and desire to get those students ALL THE WAY THROUGH that program.

Chuck Blue, D-12501
AFF/SL/TM-I, PRO, S&TA, FAA Senior Rigger
Coolidge, AZ

Sometimes the students would like to be acknowledged for what they consider a great accomplishment, not to mention, it lets all the coaches know there are new people that need a coach and would come and introduce themselves to the new graduate.

In a perfect world it would be great to have the staff to make sure every unlicensed jumper had a coach, but this is not a perfect world.

It gripes me to no end, when the seasoned skydiver/instructor doesn't remember what it felt like to graduate and the confidence it give them and instead belittle or look down upon the new students. I see no harm in introducing this new AFF graduates to the dropzone over the PA.

We do 7 level AFF instructions. We have coaches for the student to jump with after they pass all those 7 levels. We also announce the A license over the PA too.

If you don't like to acknowledge the students progression publicly, then don't do it.

Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

Quote

Chuck, check out this nearly 10 year old thread where we were talking about similar things: http://www.dropzone.com/...post=1456565#1456565

I just read through the entire thing, Gary. It's still 100% relevant. Thanks for digging that up.

[thomas_crowe 0]

I voted that it was fine as is; but after reading through this thread, and the other one mentioned I think there may be better phraseology that could be used. I really liked the comparisons to private pilot training, and the cleared to solo terminology they used (maybe because I am also a pilot). It conveys the right message, you've learned enough to have reached a milestone in your training (and it should be recognized and celebrated), however there is more training to be done in order to obtain your license. Really, it's basically the very same thing, and has the advantage, quite a few skydivers have at least a passing interest in aviation, and have probably looked at getting their pilot's license so are probably already familiar with the concept (not assuming everyone will be, but some).

So I would suggest changing it to something along the lines of "Cleared to solo jump" with there being accompanying information about the next steps to getting their A.

Thomas Crowe, NRP
Nationally Registered Paramedic
Red Hat Linux Geek