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skyclown

Advice for juding a students fall rate

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Hi all,

Please can any experienced AFF instructors give me some advice?

In particular, what criteria do they use to judge what a student's fall rate is likely to be relative to their own? And then to chose what suit to put the student in, and whether to either get the student to wear weight, or wear weight themselves?

Any advice or guidance?

Thanks

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Like anything it's a judgement call... But from approx 100 AFF's and over 200 coach jumps here's my system (I'm 6' and 200lbs):

1) small/thin students (over 5'6 under 130 lbs/ 5'0' under 110 or similar) go in tight/spandex suits. If it's cat A or B I'm more comfortable flying less suit. If it's a release/coach dive I will wear an XXL W student suit that I have to rubber band the legs up over my shoes while on the ground.

2) medium range (5'6 160+lbs up to my size) student goes in a suit that fits them with minimal drag. I wear my freefly suit and am very comfortable.

3) large students (anything pushing 230+lbs/bowling balls/meat missiles) wear baggy suits and I'll wear a fast RW suit and/or add lead.

*** It's all about sizing up the student AND if it's a C or D that I haven't jumped with I go ask their A or B instructors what to expect.

*** Eventually you'll have a student get the better of you even if you dress him/her and yourself for sucess-like the 125 lb 6'1" cat D last summer I had jump in his skinny jeans, I was wearing an 80's RW suit and was still sinking on (he refused to arch). In this case it might be a good option to recommend they jump with a smaller/lighter AFFI (if available at your DZ).

Cheers!

-Harry
"Sometimes you eat the bar,
and well-sometimes the bar eats you..."

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skyclown

In particular, what criteria do they use to judge what a student's fall rate is likely to be relative to their own?



If possible, the best thing is to ask another instructor who has jumped with them. Otherwise you just have to make an educated guess.

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... and then to chose what suit to put the student in ...



I can't think of any good solution other than the DZ having a wide variety of jumpsuits and then picking one for the student that insures that you will not go low on them.

Quote

... whether to get the student to wear weight...



I suggest avoiding that in all but the most extreme cases, like if there is no other smaller instructor to jump with them. You would be increasing their wing loading, perhaps making their landing less gentle, and if there is a body of water nearby, could be dangerous.

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If the student is older, they will fall slow despite of their weight.

I have never put weight on the student. If you can't fly level with the student you should refuse to jump with them. Nothing feels shittier than going low or taco-ing over a student.

I think every affi goes thru that at some point once, usually due to laziness. Meaning they were too lazy to change jumpsuit in between loads, or the weight belt was there but you just didn't want to put it on.

You'll figure it out. Trial and error. I don't have any issue with unless the student weighs less than 105 or more than 205. Those I found it thru trial and error.

Also you can manipulate your student as well. If I see a light student I tell them I wanna see hard arch, and I'll give them arch signal even tho they are arching very well. Heavier student if they are stable, meaning they are on their AFF level 3 and more. I tell them not to arch, and just stay relaxed.
Bernie Sanders for President 2016

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Usually, students will fall slower than the same size experienced jumper, but once in a while they will fall faster. Think 110# girl bent at the waist like a pretzel.
I use a FS suit with swoop cords and mega booties. This gives ME range. For students, unless they are extremely tall and light, just a regular jumpsuit. I've only had one student get above me and that was an A license check dive. I think he did it to prove that he could.
Anticipate. If I'm worried about a possible floaty student, I grab air prior to release. I'll try to stay a couple feet above him to give me a cushion.
I also tell them if they see the top of my rig they need to fall faster, because I can't save them from below.
This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

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stayhigh


You'll figure it out. Trial and error.



And for my first couple seasons, I kept a sort of log to become familiar with. I recorded student weights vs. how much weight I put on, for a given jumpsuit, and whether I tended to be fast, ok, or slow. (Since I'm tall and skinny, I tend to adjust fall rate more with weights than jumpsuit size.)

The log didn't account for all aspects of student behaviour but helped get used to how students tended to fall, with the jumpsuits we had for them.

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peek



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... whether to get the student to wear weight...



You would be increasing their wing loading, perhaps making their landing less gentle........................



Or help them actually penetrate that 14 mph wind under that Navigator 240.
Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

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Remster

Never. Trust. Small. Girls.


They can be very bendy.



Truth! It's ALWAYS best if you are going to take a small girl on her first release dive to have been on at least one of their previous jumps (Cat A or Cat B). In my experience that's the best way to prevent yourself from getting hosed.

Chuck

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Remster

Never. Trust. Small. Girls.


They can be very bendy.



+1

It was like a box of chocolates if you never jumped with them before. Some were flat and slow, some put their feet on their ears and away they go. :D
"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

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Remster

Never. Trust. Small. Girls.


They can be very bendy.

Our son was a tunnel instructor. They called those little arched girls "loaded" because they could flatten out and shoot up like a bullet from a gun. ;)

I had a little girl on a Level 4 the other day arch and fall like a brick. I'm glad I kept up with her because she forgot to pull and I had to redock and whip it out. ;)

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angryelf

In this case it might be a good option to recommend they jump with a smaller/lighter AFFI (if available at your DZ).

All great advice and I esp. like this last part. We have all different sizes of AFF instructors at our DZ and try to match the students accordingly.

I look at the students from the side, gauging the distance from backbone to belly. The longer the distance, the faster the fall rate. I refer to it as the ballistic coefficient method.;)

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skydiveoc


Fool you into wearing Mr Baggy the they arch like a wet noodle. Break out the dead spider hand signal!



Fairly early on as a new AFF-I, I wound up on a Cat C with a small young lady and another experienced AFF-I from another DZ who I knew but had never jumped with. I asked around and was told the student was "floaty", so I dressed for success and prepared myself for her to slow down on release. (I also weighed probably 40lbs more than I do now and had some initial problems with fall rate in Cat C jumps, so I tended to expect a student to be too slow for me. That led to a lot of issues before I got more skill and lost more weight)

On release, her fall rate went up, and I probably over anticipated a fall rate change, and I found myself 15+ ft above them in an instant. Before I could even curse my piss poor decision making skills, they slid a little my way (or I slid their way while trying to get down) and *bam* I'm in the burble.

I managed to go right between her and the main side and only bumped a foot on her rig on the way thru. Talk about an embarrassing n00b mistake and possibly dangerous situation. Great way to show you have your AFF shit together to someone from another DZ, too.

She admitted on the ground that she does yoga and is "really bendy". I ask that question in advance now.
NIN
D-19617, AFF-I '19

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"distance from backbone to belly" -- Hence my extra baggy jumpsuits.;)

You have the right to your opinion, and I have the right to tell you how Fu***** stupid it is.
Davelepka - "This isn't an x-box, or a Chevy truck forum"
Whatever you do, don't listen to ChrisD.

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I don't know about you, but I wasn't an instant expert when I started instructing...

Since he asked, I'll help. Imagine the noise your student would make if they jumped up and landed on a wood floor. That's their mass. If its louder than the noise you make, they'll go fast. Seems to work for me. Make a habit of asking their weight, after you guess. It is a skill that can be learned and may offer a career opportunity at an amusement park someday.

Skinny people can be tricky, if they are flexible and have low body fat, they can fall surprisingly fast. You'll figure it out.

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JohnMitchell

***Never. Trust. Small. Girls.


They can be very bendy.

Our son was a tunnel instructor. They called those little arched girls "loaded" because they could flatten out and shoot up like a bullet from a gun. ;)

I had a little girl on a Level 4 the other day arch and fall like a brick. I'm glad I kept up with her because she forgot to pull and I had to redock and whip it out. ;)

Tell me about it! Years ago I had a girlfriend who was a gymnast as a kid/teenager. She was about 5'1". Even in her 30's she could reach back and pull the tips of her toes to her ears! She had an AMAZING fall rate range for RW. It keeps you on your toes!;)
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I'm back in the USA!!

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